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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 21

post #601 of 10829
11/11/09 at 11:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

I was asking for suggestions on what to show the tech so he can see the elevated black levels on my set. On my set the gray i see on a no input screen is the same gray i see when viewing regular content.

You could try showing the tech what it looks like when you switch from a no input screen to an input with a 0% stimuli test pattern or black image from an HTPC or thumbdrive, if you have that option.

If I'm understanding the issue correctly, the most dramatic way to demonstrate the mll increase would be to set up a properly working G10 next to yours and simultaneously switch them from a blank input to one with a black image. If it's the case that your blacks don't get any darker than they are on a blank input screen, the other G10 would drop down to the normal mll while yours would stay the same.

I know most people don't have spare plasma TVs laying around for test purposes but if you could set that up somehow I think a technician would have a tough time arguing that there isn't something wrong with your G10.
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post #602 of 10829
11/12/09 at 1:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

lol... you can jump up and down in your head or threat Panasonic with bomb , they will never replace or fix this issue.They will tell you that tv works 100% to their specs ( their secret specs) . Even if they come with a mighty super plasma with blacks deeper than black matter from space i wouldn't buy it just because they dont respect customers. Good luck everyone!!!

That's rather unfortunate, If this is true than i can honestly say that Samsung has the better customer service. With Samsung if you complain enough they will replace your set, you just have to keep pestering them.
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post #603 of 10829
11/12/09 at 3:31am
Does this elevated black mean that it is now equal to LCD? or worst?
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post #604 of 10829
11/12/09 at 3:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by flargosa View Post

Does this elevated black mean that it is now equal to LCD? or worst?

It's about equal, probably a little bit better but not by much. This is comparing it to last years Samsung LNXXA650 that i have in the bedroom at the moment. I don't know how it compares to the newest LCD's out or EdgeLED's for that matter.
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post #605 of 10829
11/12/09 at 4:31am
True that if you are happy just enjoy but this is such unknown territory.What if the blacks keep rising as usage goes on.What will your display look like one year from now?
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post #606 of 10829
11/12/09 at 5:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_fusion View Post

It's to the point with me, to where I'm done recommending Panasonic Plasma's....Here's a basic test for those that can meet this criteria....
1. PS3
2. the game(s) Dead Space or Bad Co. Battlefield
3. go to the picture adjust settings in the game where it says to adjust brightness to where you can just barely see the background image...

I have to crank the brightness in the game all the way up, as well as the brightness on the panny g10 up over 85 to 100...ie basically maxed out to barely see the image...it doesn't matter which mode I use either...game, thx, standard, or vivid, etc... I first noticed my washed out blacks one day while playing Grand Theft Auto IV...it was at night in the game, under one of the bridges with the bums hanging out around a fire lit 55 gal drum...and it was so dark and devoid of any detail, compared to earlier when my blacks were good, and I could see everything quite clearly....HDTV still looks pretty good but I'm really noticing sub par performance on the PS3 compared to earlier when the dark scenes look much better with a higher degree of detail..

I'm confused - would an increase in the MLL cause a person to have to raise the brightness to get similar results to before?
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post #607 of 10829
11/12/09 at 5:29am
Um, this is a totally different problem. This thread is about elevated black levels, where blacks are turning gray. What you are refering to is Black Crush. Do you have your PS3 set to "Full RGB"? if so, set it to "Limited" and that should solve your problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_fusion View Post

It's to the point with me, to where I'm done recommending Panasonic Plasma's....Here's a basic test for those that can meet this criteria....
1. PS3
2. the game(s) Dead Space or Bad Co. Battlefield
3. go to the picture adjust settings in the game where it says to adjust brightness to where you can just barely see the background image...

I have to crank the brightness in the game all the way up, as well as the brightness on the panny g10 up over 85 to 100...ie basically maxed out to barely see the image...it doesn't matter which mode I use either...game, thx, standard, or vivid, etc... I first noticed my washed out blacks one day while playing Grand Theft Auto IV...it was at night in the game, under one of the bridges with the bums hanging out around a fire lit 55 gal drum...and it was so dark and devoid of any detail, compared to earlier when my blacks were good, and I could see everything quite clearly....HDTV still looks pretty good but I'm really noticing sub par performance on the PS3 compared to earlier when the dark scenes look much better with a higher degree of detail..
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post #608 of 10829
11/12/09 at 5:48am
Black crush is different yes. Keep the black level light.
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post #609 of 10829
11/12/09 at 7:49am
Cycling the video modes really does seem to impact how dark the blacks are...

The darkest mode seems to be vivid mode!

vivid mode is so bright, that the black bars on the left and right side on 4:3 telecasts makes the blacks look infinite. Same goes with game mode.

Switching to a calibrated Custom mode, or std mode reveals the black bars as more grey / back lighted.
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post #610 of 10829
11/12/09 at 5:19pm
man .... like a said in a previous post i am TWC tech and i see bunch of tvs everyday. Since my blacks start getting light i start to look at subs panny tvs and i swear all of them have the grey looking blacks. I looked at sammy plasma most of them have pitch blacks. Most of the poeple are average consumers and they dont care about blacks especially people who came from CRT to HDTV, many old people dont give a **** about blacks... lol. I should of bought samsung because was 50 bucks cheaper, but no i wanted Panasonic with deep blacks ( infinite grays ) . I am done with this thread because it makes me mad. Good luck guys
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post #611 of 10829
11/12/09 at 6:09pm
Isn't the Panny's doubling of black levels to from .029 to .06 still equal to that of the Samsung PN50B550 which is supposedly still impressive?

I was reading the review over at "plasma tv buying guide . com" for the Samsung PN50B550. Here is what it says "Black registered a very impressive .06 average luminance in our contrast ratio test. It's impressive and inky and you notice it with almost all content. The Pioneer KURO blacks were world renowned, but this is close."
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post #612 of 10829
11/12/09 at 7:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

Um, this is a totally different problem. This thread is about elevated black levels, where blacks are turning gray. What you are refering to is Black Crush. Do you have your PS3 set to "Full RGB"? if so, set it to "Limited" and that should solve your problem.

Okay, switching to limited in the PS3 settings fixed the black crush in the games...a little confusing as I would have thought full would be better than limited? I would have to report that changing to limited in the PS3 settings restored my darkness problem in the dark scenes of the games...thanks..
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post #613 of 10829
11/12/09 at 11:21pm
Im pretty sure my 50" PZ80u has increased its blacks as well....it no longer seems to be the "dark" i remeber the set to have.
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post #614 of 10829
11/13/09 at 12:46am
how would these sets get after a few years? the black will get lighter and lighter right? lighter then an lcd?
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post #615 of 10829
11/13/09 at 12:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cold_fusion View Post

Okay, switching to limited in the PS3 settings fixed the black crush in the games...a little confusing as I would have thought full would be better than limited? I would have to report that changing to limited in the PS3 settings restored my darkness problem in the dark scenes of the games...thanks..

It's not better, most people think that it's better but all it does is crush shadow detail. Set your Panasonic plasma's black level to "Light" and the PS3's RGB setting to "Limited" and you're good to go. You might have to recalibrate the brightness, contrast, and color though. I am glad that it worked out for you.

On another note, i had a tech come by for my elevated black levels and he said he was going to change the A.Board and if that doesn't work he is going to completely change out the panel. He found it unacceptable that my black levels were this light. So much for the theory that most of us are "seeing things"
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post #616 of 10829
11/13/09 at 4:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by x-evil-x View Post

how would these sets get after a few years? the black will get lighter and lighter right? lighter then an lcd?

I don't think so, I think it just goes lighter once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

It's not better, most people think that it's better but all it does is crush shadow detail. Set your Panasonic plasma's black level to "Light" and the PS3's RGB setting to "Limited" and you're good to go. You might have to recalibrate the brightness, contrast, and color though. I am glad that it worked out for you.

There is a right and wrong setting for RGB, but in the case of Panasonic Plasmas, you're right - Limited is the correct setting. RGB FULL is reserved generally for PC monitors and/or TV's that have the ability to choose color space (Samsung, Sony to name a few). It is very important that you match your color space. Limited (aka video level) is 16-235 and Full (aka PC level) is 0-255. PC's typically output 0-255 and gaming consoles (360, PS3) have a choice of outputting either or. TV's typically expect video levels (16-235) and monitors typically expect PC levels (0-255). That's why these consoles can output both because some people use their consoles on PC monitors. If you mis-match your levels, you'll either get crushed blacks (outputting PC levels on a TV/monitor expecting video levels) or you'll get blacks that look gray (outputting limited levels on a monitor/TV expecting PC levels).
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post #617 of 10829
11/13/09 at 5:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

On another note, i had a tech come by for my elevated black levels and he said he was going to change the A.Board and if that doesn't work he is going to completely change out the panel. He found it unacceptable that my black levels were this light. So much for the theory that most of us are "seeing things"

Very cool. Is there any way you can get some kind of measurement on your blacks now, that the tech found to be too light, and then another after he replaces parts? It would be great to have something "solid" we can use in this thread. If you can't get an actual measurement, could you take a picture with controlled light in the room of a scene on a Blu-ray that shows this now, and then a picture with the exact same scene, same lighting, same TV settings after he replaces the parts?
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post #618 of 10829
11/13/09 at 5:18am
You know, since only 2 or 3 people have posted measurements on their blacks on here, we need something somewhat universal as a "control" that everyone could look at at compare, apples to apples. Any ideas?
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post #619 of 10829
11/13/09 at 5:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

You know, since only 2 or 3 people have posted measurements on their blacks on here, we need something somewhat universal as a "control" that everyone could look at at compare, apples to apples. Any ideas?

I don't have equipment to measure my black level If someone volunteers to check black level on my TV you are welcome
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post #620 of 10829
11/13/09 at 6:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Very cool. Is there any way you can get some kind of measurement on your blacks now, that the tech found to be too light, and then another after he replaces parts? It would be great to have something "solid" we can use in this thread. If you can't get an actual measurement, could you take a picture with controlled light in the room of a scene on a Blu-ray that shows this now, and then a picture with the exact same scene, same lighting, same TV settings after he replaces the parts?

Sorry i don't have a meter to measure the current black levels on my set. I'll post some before and after pictures when i can.
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post #621 of 10829
11/13/09 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

On another note, i had a tech come by for my elevated black levels and he said he was going to change the A.Board and if that doesn't work he is going to completely change out the panel. He found it unacceptable that my black levels were this light. So much for the theory that most of us are "seeing things"

Shocking, simply shocking, you've got yourself 1 rogue tech, he is definately not spewing the company line (cover up). Lucky for you. Unfortunately, I'd be equally shocked if your blacks did not return to grey after about 300 hours on the new panel, reset.
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post #622 of 10829
11/13/09 at 5:22pm
i got my a-board replaced and the blacks were the same. So its senseless to replace the board. I dont think its the panel either , its engineering related that could be fixed or not with a firmware update.
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post #623 of 10829
11/13/09 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

i got my a-board replaced and the blacks were the same. So its senseless to replace the board. I dont think its the panel either , its engineering related that could be fixed or not with a firmware update.

Hmm. What is the A-board? I thought that if you replaced that you basically had a TV that was the equivalent of right out of the box in terms of the display hardware- i.e. that should take you back to what a TV with 0 hours displays.
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post #624 of 10829
11/13/09 at 10:51pm
Thread Starter 
I think cristian has one of the '08 models (PX80?), so there could be differing experiences. Interesting to see if iVers's repair restores the levels though.
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post #625 of 10829
11/16/09 at 9:50am
Here's a question I just realized...

Maybe plasma blacks get lighter as they age...

so that's why Panasonic added 2 settings to compensate: "black level" and "gamma level".

Maybe those are only on the V10... but right now every calibrator picks "black level: light" out of the box.

Maybe it's there, so when blacks become grey as the tv ages, they can be knocked back down with "black level: dark".

??
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post #626 of 10829
11/16/09 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I think cristian has one of the '08 models (PX80?), so there could be differing experiences. Interesting to see if iVers's repair restores the levels though.

They are coming tomorrow to replace the A.Board, he didn't have the part and had to order it. If this doesn't work than he will be replacing the panel. If all fails than i am going to try to get Panasonic to send me a new set.
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post #627 of 10829
11/16/09 at 10:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

Here's a question I just realized...

Maybe plasma blacks get lighter as they age...

so that's why Panasonic added 2 settings to compensate: "black level" and "gamma level".

Maybe those are only on the V10... but right now every calibrator picks "black level: light" out of the box.

Maybe it's there, so when blacks become grey as the tv ages, they can be knocked back down with "black level: dark".

??

This setting doesn't affect the minimum luminance level, measures are the same at both Light and Dark. I suspect the V exclusive features behave similarly
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post #628 of 10829
11/16/09 at 11:26am
Ok they tried to change the A-Board, do a reset and also verified the power supply. No change and its getting worst everyday. I was watching Harry Potter yesterday and the black were awful, a total light grey. Panny i sending another tech to take photo in the menu test patern... i tried to explain that its only visible in dark scene but he state that if there is a problem, its supposed to be seen even in colors..... Total BS..... Im so angry right now. That tv was paid 2300$ (Canada) ...... Should have taken a Sammy....
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post #629 of 10829
11/16/09 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_Per View Post

Ok they tried to change the A-Board, do a reset and also verified the power supply. No change and its getting worst everyday. I was watching Harry Potter yesterday and the black were awful, a total light grey. Panny i sending another tech to take photo in the menu test patern... i tried to explain that its only visible in dark scene but he state that if there is a problem, its supposed to be seen even in colors..... Total BS..... Im so angry right now. That tv was paid 2300$ (Canada) ...... Should have taken a Sammy....

taken Sammy-then you would probably have a buzzer. you should hear how annoying that is. although an increase in mll is bs....
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post #630 of 10829
11/16/09 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_Per View Post

Ok they tried to change the A-Board, do a reset and also verified the power supply. No change and its getting worst everyday. I was watching Harry Potter yesterday and the black were awful, a total light grey. Panny i sending another tech to take photo in the menu test patern... i tried to explain that its only visible in dark scene but he state that if there is a problem, its supposed to be seen even in colors..... Total BS..... Im so angry right now. That tv was paid 2300$ (Canada) ...... Should have taken a Sammy....

Just to get us all on the same page - when you watch a DVD or HD TV show, the blacks in the picture (not side bars, etc.) actually look light gray rather than black? Surely that is so noticeable that the tech can see it?
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