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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 206

post #6151 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

Ok, here's my result from HCFR. Referred to this guide to set up the i1 LT. Meter warmed on the TV for 30 minutes, then calibrated it in the dark with a black DVD case. Reading taken in pitch black room, 0 IRE pattern from AVS HD 709 Blu-Ray on a PS3...

ftL: 0.017

TC-P46G10
May 2009 build date
1359 hours
FW version 1.29
THX fix installed
No A-board replacement
i1 LT meter used

Unfortunately I don't know what the ftL was back when I first set it up as I only just got the i1 LT. I however cannot perceive any change in black level by looking at it. FWIW I am still very happy with my G10.

Can you tell us what your brightness is set at, too?

Thanks,

Kevin
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post #6152 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by robstamack View Post

Regarding the voltage rise, is the rise uniform across every phase (initialization, address, sustain, clear) or is one phase in particular taking the voltage hit (particularly initialization or clear)?

The MLL you see in Plasma displays is an unwanted byproduct of the initialization step only (also called the reset step). Any changes to the initialization waveform (voltage, shape, time) will have an effect on MLL.

The address, sustain steps should have zero effect on MLL.

Note: The key to ECC is to completely eliminate any need for an "all cell" initialilzation step.


Quote:
Originally Posted by robstamack View Post

Honestly, I don't even know if it's possible to modify voltage per phase but wanted to toss that question out there.

Yes, it is possible.
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post #6153 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:09am
Barring the Pioneer Kuro's, comparisons of initial black levels between Panasonic and other manufacturers are making sense to me now. As some have stated Panasonic has deceived the 2008/2009 owners into thinking we have gotten tv's with better black levels vs. the other manufacturers(be it only for under 1500 hours of use). This has to be Panasonic engineering/management trying to stir up sales. Because after the sudden rise in black levels our sets will be on par with the other crowd of plasma tv manufacturers.

They cooked up the good black levels which only lasts for ~1500 hours or so of use, doing so in trying to impress buyers they have shot themselves in the foot because this temporary great black levels diminishes to quickly for these models. It's a sales gimmick to say the least, they are practicing deceptive acts have made shills out of them. Secret patent on Black levels my foot, they're hiding their design flaws

There's nothing like a Pioneer Kuro

Panasonic deceived us! You name it whatever Panasonic manufactures, Never ever will I buy a Panasonic product in the future!
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post #6154 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pochoboy View Post

Barring the Pioneer Kuro's, comparisons of initial black levels between Panasonic and other manufacturers are making sense to me now. As some have stated Panasonic has deceived the 2008/2009 owners into thinking we have gotten tv's with better black levels vs. the other manufacturers(be it only for under 1500 hours of use). This has to be Panasonic engineering/management trying to stir up sales. Because after the sudden rise in black levels our sets will be on par with the other crowd of plasma tv manufacturers.

They cooked up the good black levels which only lasts for ~1500 hours or so of use, doing so in trying to impress buyers they have shot themselves in the foot because this temporary great black levels diminishes to quickly for these models.

There's nothing like a Pioneer Kuro

Panasonic deceived us! You name it whatever Panasonic manufactures, Never ever will I buy a Panasonic product in the future!

Classic "bait and switch"!

I bought the 42G10 for our bedroom (ie, predominately "lights out" viewing)based on their claimed "superior" black level compared to the competition. Had I KNOWN about these increased levels over such a short time frame, I would have considered other TV's.

I have measured my set at 150 hrs, .015fl. I have a feeling at 1500 hrs, I might be the new record holder at over .040fl. But who knows!

Kevin
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post #6155 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

The MLL you see in Plasma displays is an unwanted byproduct of the initialization step only (also called the reset step). Any changes to the initialization waveform (voltage, shape, time) will have an effect on MLL.

The address, sustain steps should have zero effect on MLL.

Note: The key to ECC is to completely eliminate any need for an "all cell" initialilzation step.

So, theoretically, the voltage of the initialization pulse (and nothing else) could be modified if there was a physical adjuster included on the board that drives the panel? edit: Assuming the shape & time of said pulse are unaffected.
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post #6156 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan10 View Post

I have to laugh sometimes at this thread.

Poster A: My set is fine.
Poster B: How do you know your TV is fine if you don't have a meter?
Poster C: If you display a black screen in a dark room you can tell.

Wow. I guess if you need a meter to tell it doesn't matter that much. If you have to watch a black screen in a dark room it probably doesn't matter that much.

Before I get flamed, I understand the frustration and I also would be upset if my plasma looked as bad as my LCD's. I certainly hope that Panasonic can come up with a firmware fix. And I also hope that my black levels don't rise to the level of an LCD.

For the record I have a TC-P50S1. I measured my in the dark with an i1. With 660 hours my reading was 0.019. This puts me right where the chart says I should be so I guess I have the problem. I hope the right person sees this and adds this data point. I don't feel like searching through pages of conspiracy theories to find the correct person to PM.

My LCD tvs measure more like .035 or higher so even at 0.024 the plasma will be better. With default settings they are more like 0.050.

I watched Sherlock Holmes in a theatre a few weeks ago. The theatre screen was worse than my LCD. Must have been about 0.080.

People on this thread have been asking for meter readings from others who think that they don't have the problem because its fully understood that some people don't NOTICE the rise, even it it has risen. A metered reading would allow us to confirm that this is happening across all 2009 Panasonics (which seems to have been all but confirmed at this point). There is no dispute that some people don't NOTICE the rise in black levels.

The fact is that some of us DO see an obvious and visible performance gap between .007 and .019. But you still need a metered measurement to convey that to the rest of the world. Not everybody is comparing their Panasonic to low-end LCDs. Some of us have the Panasonics in secondary rooms, with Kuros in main rooms. I can assure you that most people who walk from one dark room with a Kuro to another dark room with a Panasonic with .019 will notice the difference. And if they don't, they never should have paid the premium for a Kuro in the first place.
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post #6157 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickff View Post

Hello?

My friend is considering purchasing a TC-P65S1. Is this model affected by the rising black level issue? Would you recommend he purchase something else?

I am not familiar with Panasonic's plasmas and he doesn't follow the goings-on in home theater.

This is not the recommended thread to ask that question.
You can make a better decision reading the customer reviews of people that actually bought and own the TV that have not read the AVS forum yet. Check out the customer reviews in Best Buy or Amazon. I am positive that you can get more honest opinions there.
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post #6158 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:31am
Yes, if you like opinions based on being uninformed of the issue or deliberately whistling past the graveyard, then by all means rely on those reviews.

What a crock! How many people post reviews after one week of ownership? One Month? Probably the great majority. Guilty of it myself through the years. But time has a way of sniffing out the real from the 'new' smell. Denial is not a river in Egypt.
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post #6159 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by robstamack View Post

So, theoretically, the voltage of the initialization pulse (and nothing else) could be modified if there was a physical adjuster included on the board that drives the panel?

It is possible that waveforms are generated purely by hardware but firmware is more likely IMO. Even if it was pure hardware generated I doubt there would be a physical adjuster similar to what you find on commercial pulse generators (e.g. keithley).
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post #6160 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:41am
The black level on my TC-P42C1 @ 530 hrs, taken with my blackberry in a darkened room, using D-Nice's offsets...this set doesn't have a super high contrast ratio, but the blacks are still inky at 530 hrs.

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post #6161 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45rpm View Post

I am positive that you can get more honest opinions there.

I gotta scratch my head on this one. So, AVS members do not provide honest opinions? AVS members are less honest than other websites?

Perhaps the issue here is you do not like all of the negative posts regarding a product that you purchased???
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post #6162 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman10 View Post


i watched sherlock holmes in a theatre a few weeks ago. The theatre screen was worse than my lcd. Must have been about 0.080.

+1
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post #6163 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:50am
my last rant,

not only is Panasonic's Black Level design Patent a patent of deception but I have categorized their Infinite Black Level as another deceptive selling feature, half the time it doesn't work and mind you this feature only works in Vivid Mode and only with a blank input or pure black feed(what is the use of this feature if it only works with a blank input or pure black feed?).

2 outright deceptive acts on features that were cooked up by management/engineers at Panasonic to increase sales! Even with a slow gradual increase in Black levels is considered to me being a deceptive act, do you see Samsung, Vizio, or any other plasma manufacturer touting great black levels? No they are not, they don't deceive their potential buyers, you more or less going to get what you bought. These other brands are not trying to play the deception game!

Panasonic is worse than Nissan and Toyota, these car companies did not design defective gas pedas or mats to deceive buyers into thinking they have a better product.
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post #6164 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wopino View Post

The black level on my TC-P42C1 @ 530 hrs, taken with my blackberry in a darkened room, using D-Nice's offsets...this set doesn't have a super high contrast ratio, but the blacks are still inky at 530 hrs.

Those are definitely inky blacks*!

*Inky as defined by random settings from a dinky little blackberry camera transferred to a web server, linked on avsforum and viewed on some random uncalibrated LCD monitor.
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post #6165 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I gotta scratch my head on this one. So, AVS members do not provide honest opinions? AVS members are less honest than other websites?

Perhaps the issue here is you do not like all of the negative posts regarding a product that you purchased???

+1

I don't get it. There are actual calibrators on this site like yourself who are very aware of the issue and the fanboys still post as they do.

Unfortunately, plasma is currently in a state of limbo. I hope 2010 models will restore some real measure of confidence to the playing field.
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post #6166 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pochoboy View Post


Panasonic is worse than Nissan and Toyota, these car companies did not design defective gas pedas or mats to deceive buyers into thinking they have a better product.

And if the latest reports of vehicle misbehavior after repair are true, then the problem is with the electronic control modules, as many have suspected all along.
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post #6167 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

So, AVS members do not provide honest opinions? AVS members are less honest than other websites?

Absolutely correct. And that is my honest opinion.

Quote:


Perhaps the issue here is you do not like all of the negative posts regarding a product that you purchased???

I have owned several TVs through the years and have agreed with the negative reports on the bad ones. The worst one, for its price, was my 62" Mitsubishi DLP. But for my 58S1, I can honestly say that for its price, I am satisfied with its performance so far. I have more than 1,000 hours on it now and there is absolutely no difference in PQ that I can tell.
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post #6168 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pochoboy View Post

Barring the Pioneer Kuro's, comparisons of initial black levels between Panasonic and other manufacturers are making sense to me now. As some have stated Panasonic has deceived the 2008/2009 owners into thinking we have gotten tv's with better black levels vs. the other manufacturers(be it only for under 1500 hours of use). This has to be Panasonic engineering/management trying to stir up sales. Because after the sudden rise in black levels our sets will be on par with the other crowd of plasma tv manufacturers.

They cooked up the good black levels which only lasts for ~1500 hours or so of use, doing so in trying to impress buyers they have shot themselves in the foot because this temporary great black levels diminishes to quickly for these models. It's a sales gimmick to say the least, they are practicing deceptive acts have made shills out of them. Secret patent on Black levels my foot, they're hiding their design flaws

There's nothing like a Pioneer Kuro

Panasonic deceived us! You name it whatever Panasonic manufactures, Never ever will I buy a Panasonic product in the future!

No, they didn't. Do you really think they designed it this way on purpose? A TV that got worse after 1000 hours of use? Seriously? What, exactly, would be their motive? To make you and every other purchaser so pissed off that they'd never buy another Panasonic product again? Gee, that would be a good corporate profit-making strategy, wouldn't it?

They made a mistake - the blew the calculation on how much extra voltage to send through. They may or may not have known about it by the 2009 TV's - if the problem started with the 2008s and only showed up after a bunch of months in use, then the 2009's were probably in production by the time they figured out there MIGHT be a problem. So they started working on the 2010s, figured there was a problem with the speed of the decay, and made it more gradual.

This is a bad design. It is not a purposeful mistake. Conspiracy theories are just silly.
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post #6169 of 10829
3/4/10 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

And if the latest reports of vehicle misbehavior after repair are true, then the problem is with the electronic control modules, as many have suspected all along.

maybe, but did they create the electronic control modules to work this way to deceive the buyers? NO

do they tout they have better electronic control modules as a selling point? NO
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post #6170 of 10829
3/4/10 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I gotta scratch my head on this one. So, AVS members do not provide honest opinions? AVS members are less honest than other websites?

Perhaps the issue here is you do not like all of the negative posts regarding a product that you purchased???

Indeed.

Knowledgeable people have taken accurate readings, and Panasonic admits to the design, yet some still refuse to believe it.

It also amazes me to how some can argue that their subjective interpretation has more credibility than actual measurements.
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post #6171 of 10829
3/4/10 at 8:08am
one more time: stop this banter or you will be asked to leave the thread
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post #6172 of 10829
3/4/10 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonandabby View Post

No, they didn't. Do you really think they designed it this way on purpose? A TV that got worse after 1000 hours of use? Seriously? What, exactly, would be their motive? To make you and every other purchaser so pissed off that they'd never buy another Panasonic product again? Gee, that would be a good corporate profit-making strategy, wouldn't it?

They made a mistake - the blew the calculation on how much extra voltage to send through. They may or may not have known about it by the 2009 TV's - if the problem started with the 2008s and only showed up after a bunch of months in use, then the 2009's were probably in production by the time they figured out there MIGHT be a problem. So they started working on the 2010s, figured there was a problem with the speed of the decay, and made it more gradual.

This is a bad design. It is not a purposeful mistake. Conspiracy theories are just silly.

Panasonic has admitted that the black levels will rise and that the 2008/2009 models have a noticable rise and that they'll do it more gradually in the 2010 models. This feature be it a fast or slow gradual rise is a deceptive practice! In the end you'll get that black level rise compared to the newly bought set, its a deceptive practice because Panasonics selling point is it's black levels compared to others. And you're not even mentioning the Infinite Black feature which is another deceptive selling point!

Since it is a selling point, it is deceptive patent to make you believe you have bought a set with great black levels, hahaha, be it only for 1500 or so. It doesn't matter how you see my point as in the end you've bought a feature that'll only last for 1500 hours.

It's like buying a car that gets 40 miles/gallon and after nine months of use you get 16 miles/gallon. Could you imagine that car company going down the tubes
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post #6173 of 10829
3/4/10 at 8:11am
pochoboy,

I agree. We are on the same page in this regard. I am one of the more 'conspiratorial' types as labeled here on this thread and I'm sure on many ignore lists as well. It is all too convenient for Panasonic to have low MLL at review time and higher MLL after normal usage when you factor in their own admissions. And yet people still bend over backwards and jump through hoops in order to be 'scientific' about this. As if that changes the known facts already in front of us. Is it just a happenstance that new Panny BL looks like older Panny BL after normal use? Where did the Black go? Why was something clearly known by Panasonic to be temporary touted as a selling point? It is deceptive on its face and no amount of "this is only a screw up in the voltage adjustment" can change that. Everyone knows Contrast ratio claims by manufacturers are to be taken with a grain of salt. Panny has simply elevated that to rock salt.

Mark,

Hear you loud and clear.
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post #6174 of 10829
3/4/10 at 8:36am
HDGURU also picked up this story together with a response from THX:

http://hdguru.com/cnet-tests-point-t...response/1368/
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post #6175 of 10829
3/4/10 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhe zhang View Post

HDGURU also picked up this story together with a response from THX:

http://hdguru.com/cnet-tests-point-t...response/1368/

Glad to see that Panasonic's biggest, most biased cheerleader isn't turning a blind eye to this issue anymore.
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post #6176 of 10829
3/4/10 at 8:57am
Ok, so having read about 200 pages of angst over the black levels my question is: "what recourse is available?" The class action law suit is a joke, returning a TV after 500 hours of viewing is not gonna happen and selling it means taking a beating financially. I paid $3900 for my 65"V10, Nov build, and have about 450 hours on it. Never put a meter to it and it looks great for now, but we all know what's gonna happen so, what's the advice on how to proceed? Panny hasn't responed to my e-mail (nice, eh?) and I've yet to read anything other than the typical corporate BS from them. So, other than continuing to complain, whats the course of action?
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post #6177 of 10829
3/4/10 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhe zhang View Post

HDGURU also picked up this story together with a response from THX:

http://hdguru.com/cnet-tests-point-t...response/1368/

seems to me that emails to THX might get more results than complaining to P

If THX decided to lift its certification that would get their attention
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post #6178 of 10829
3/4/10 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

Ok, here's my result from HCFR. Referred to this guide to set up the i1 LT. Meter warmed on the TV for 30 minutes, then calibrated it in the dark with a black DVD case. Reading taken in pitch black room, 0 IRE pattern from AVS HD 709 Blu-Ray on a PS3...

ftL: 0.017

TC-P46G10
May 2009 build date
1359 hours
FW version 1.29
THX fix installed
No A-board replacement
i1 LT meter used

Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan10 View Post

I have to laugh sometimes at this thread.

Poster A: My set is fine.
Poster B: How do you know your TV is fine if you don't have a meter?
Poster C: If you display a black screen in a dark room you can tell.

Wow. I guess if you need a meter to tell it doesn't matter that much. If you have to watch a black screen in a dark room it probably doesn't matter that much.

Before I get flamed, I understand the frustration and I also would be upset if my plasma looked as bad as my LCD's. I certainly hope that Panasonic can come up with a firmware fix. And I also hope that my black levels don't rise to the level of an LCD.

For the record I have a TC-P50S1. I measured my in the dark with an i1. With 660 hours my reading was 0.019. This puts me right where the chart says I should be so I guess I have the problem.


I would just like to point out that two more people who didn't perceive that there is a problem (subjectively) have actually now measured and confirmed that they are actually experiencing the rise. That makes three people now total who didn't think there was a rise (subjectively) and confirmed that there was... again, no data which contradicts the idea that they ALL rise.

So, I think there is not much doubt anymore that we have corroborated the idea -- reinforced by D-Nice's contacts and Panny's admission -- that all sets will rise.

However, it also confirms the idea that most people will never notice or care.

I don't think it's adding anything to attack people like 45rpm who are still happy with the performance of their sets. He has a 58S1 so his blacks may have risen from 0.006 to 0.008-0.012 at this point, which is legitimately something that a lot of people would NEVER notice unless the two sets were side by side in a pitch-black room.

So, while I do think it's fair to encourage people to post data, and I know the people who DO care and who DO notice the rise are upset and angry, I don't like the semi-hostile attitude towards some people who are still satisfied with their set's performance. Just wanted to say that
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post #6179 of 10829
3/4/10 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I don't think it's adding anything to attack people like 45rpm who are still happy with the performance of their sets. He has a 58S1 so his blacks may have risen from 0.006 to 0.009 at this point, which is legitimately something that a lot of people would NEVER notice unless the two sets were side by side in a pitch-black room.

Agree, but to say "my panel is not affected" and "I cannot see the increase" are two very different items
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post #6180 of 10829
3/4/10 at 9:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhe zhang View Post

HDGURU also picked up this story together with a response from THX:

http://hdguru.com/cnet-tests-point-t...response/1368/

THX response is in other words, "We did not think about it ever happening either, so did not put in our current specifications. We will get back with you."

At least HDGRU woke up from his sleep or something and responded. For myself, I just had about written his site off completely with his "head in sand" no response position unitl today as just a Panasonic fan boy site. But glad he does say, it ain't acceptable Panasonic. Good for him!
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