Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 208

I don't care how many times this has been posted already it's still hilarious.

I think everyone should email this link to Panasonic Customer Support at least 15 to 20 times.

The lawyers' take will be a minimum of 1/3 of the settlement/verdict, plus expenses, which for these large suits will be exorbitant. Don't kid yourself, owners of the sets will end up getting $10-20 and the lawyers will make hundreds of millions. The monetary effect on Panasonic will be negligible for a company that makes billions of dollars a year in revenue. The real impact on Panasonic will be the consumers' opinion of their products if it goes to trial or the settlement is made public.

Is $100 - $200 really worth your time and effort? I'd rather just go out and buy a new set if I'm ever unhappy with this one. I've bought plenty of products that I wasn't completely satisfied with. The only thing you can do is replace it earlier than you innitially wanted to and never buy that product again. I'm not a lawyer but I just don't see the liability for Panny... maybe a fine for false advertising. I mean they filed a patent that stated this is how the set would function. I appreciate any work you do though if I do get some money .

please guys: no class action discussions here:it is not allowed

keep it technical

thanks

Orta - I wonder if you or MarkRubin would consider promoting this particular forum to the sticky thread area.

As a V10 owner, I look through this forum a minimum of four or five days each week. I guess this is addicting, especially if you continue to hope for good news concerning any type of fix. My set with 1300 hours definitely has the problem, Panasonic has been notified, and I have been told first (early January) the problem would be fixed or my unit replaced, then later (mid February) that there is no problem, the TV performs exactly as designed.

However, this request for the promotion of this thread is not for my personal convenience.

I believe having a known problem like this and Panasonic's response front and center would be a great assist to those who journey here in search of information prior to making a purchasing decision.

I know that I have only been a member a short time. However, I was pointed here (AVS Forum) while researching information prior to my second HDTV purchase in August 2006 after doing either a Google or MSN search. Visited occasionally over the years and came back and became a member last year while doing research prior to the purchase of my V10.

With Panasonic heavily promoting its 2010 line, especially 3d, AVS Forum will probably experience a good number of occasional visitors just seeking information. Probably many new or occasional visitors directed here through the same type of search that I did.

If I were searching now, I know that having something like this pointed out and easily noticed would be very important to me.

If you do promote this, it might be a decent idea to give it a more generic name. Maybe something like "Black Level Problems with 2008 & 2009 Panasonic Plasmas". Perhaps later to add 2010 if dNice's info regarding their performance is accurate.

An average consumer many not understand what is referred to by "Black Level Doubling" and also would probably have no clue what 11G or 12G were referring to.

I apologize in advance if this seems like any type of attempt to hi-jack your thread. Much of the information here, as it is in other threads within AVS, have increased my knowledge greatly.

I appreciate your efforts to bring this to light.

Not trying to take thread in direction not intended, but I think the Samsungs 09s had issues with IR too. You may want to check out the Samsung threads to investigate.

They also had issues with severe line bleeding as did the 2009 panasonics, but I'm pretty sure the samsungs were worse. I guess some peolpe were lucky in this regard that there sets did not suffer this, but the 50V10 I had exibited severe line bleeding and bad IR as did other posters.

Hey,

You might try lowering your brightness down to 62 and then remeasure your 00 IRE pattern. You might get down to .015 fl.

Kevin

I'm not sure the analogy holds, I'm pretty sure that one could make an argument that the alternatives (Samsung or LG plasmas, Sony and Samsung LCD's, etc) are as viable of alternatives as, say, Honda or Mazda is to Toyota.

Each has strength and weaknesses and different feature offerings, but deliver the same basic functionality and it's not like the quality of Panasonic was so far ahead of the competition even with the better black levels. Only if you boil down "quality" to be synonymous with "black level" does it even begin to hold water...

It's not like a buyer will not be able to go out and buy a TV that delivers pretty killer PQ. I think you are splitting hairs...

The brightness setting has absolutely no effect on MLL.

I replied to your PM too.

Without a doubt. Not trying to promote one brand over the other. All sets have issues. Just showing how relative these things can be. The usual MO is to divvy up into camps and then wage war based on this or that set of specs or measurements. When some of those critical measurements change, the tendency towards absolutism is lessened. I sense it already on this thread.

Panny is still quite capable of delivering a great product. I am hoping the VT25s will be all that they appear to be in the photos. But I will not be buying anything Panny in the plasma line until they have been scrutinized from top to bottom. Same goes for any other brand.

So great

I thought this was DocuMakers pet peeve.

just to be clear -- the brightness setting absolutely CAN have an effect on MLL! If it is too high.

But once you set your brightness control below the threshold value for which a 0IRE pattern will display at MLL (e.g. using a pluge), then it will not have any further effect to drop it farther.

+1

Though I'm trying my best not to take it too personally, this is two years in a row now I feel Panny has let me down. And here I am trying to give them my money.

First they fail to deliver watchable 24p in the mid-range sets in 2009 (all I could afford at the time). OK, says I, I will patiently wait and fill my piggy bank for a higher-end Panny in 2010. All set to sink the outrageous $Cdn 3700ish for 58VT25 (same Canadian gouge msrp as for 58V10 last year).

Then just yesterday the horrible, horrible news hits that the black level rise for 2010 will be extreme (tripling) and will happen rather soon (c. 2500 hrs).

Somebody asked me "Is it worth it?" Yesterday I said "Depends." Today I say "No way." If Panny wants to gouge me for $Cdn 3700, 3D or no 3D, they will simply have to do better.

For a 58" set which starts off at say 0.005 MLL and winds up at 0.015 MLL, in 2010 I might pay $Cdn 2700ish but not 3700.

Sorry to have to vent but this has seriously P'd me O. End rant

With LG, at least with the better models, you will get full service menu adjustment in the user menu allowing for max PQ. The blacks are always going to be behind but there is actually more to PQ than black level. Not diminishing its prime importance of course.

I would have to say my brightness wasn't too high then (68 in THX mode). I also turned it all the way down to 0 experimenting with the meter and I still got a reading of 0.017.

I'm not doubting your reading just clarifying for public consumption....

I hadn't seen it. I own a Gen 8 (500U) Panasonic which I love but that is FUNNY!

I completely agree. That was how THX got fixed for us. Sort of. They released 1.290 and I doubt it contained the THX update. But at least some work was done it on it.

I didn't think you were. And I was just clarifying my situation for public consumption.


Yeah, the pattern on the AVS 709 HD disk to set the black level had me set it to 68. I thought it was a bit high at first, and when I saw others with that high setting, but I have since been noticing improved shadow detail.

But I actually had to lower both my brightness and contrast last night when HCFR reported my avg gamma for THX at 2.08. I thought it was funny to have to lower brightness & contrast to get it up to 2.2 but LarryInRI was nice enough to explain to me why in the 12G Settings/Issues thread.

Unfortunately, the emails to THX for the color decoding issues do not appear to have had any affect.

The file dates show Panasonic had a THX fix ready around the end of October. I believe forum members had only started contacting THX around the end of November. THX promised to collect info and look into the issue, but nothing happened with it. Two more months went by until the THX firmware was released by Panasonic directly. No more contact from THX themselves. Panasonic just seems to be on it's own schedule and doesn't seem to care what anyone else thinks.

Having said that....I personally don't think a display should be THX certified and have diminished black levels so quickly. i.e. if THX was a legitimate certification, then they should pull it. It is definitely worth contacting THX and reporting it, but I wouldn't have much hopes for them doing anything.

Just for general reference in case others want to send messages to THX:

• Email Addresses: THXDisplays@thx.com or licensing@THX.com or web@thx.com

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't THX a specification? If so one would only need to conform to it. As someone who works with specification conformance everyday I am aware you aren't bound to what was omitted in the specs. That doesn't mean I agree with the black level rise either but if it wasn't in their spec then it's tough love for us.

This is an excellent article which answers a lot of THX questions by the man who runs the THX video testing program.

http://www.audioholics.com/education...logy/thx-video

from that article


so theoretically...there could be some very bare minimum requirements in the THX spec. Although I would bet even the panels that rise probably fall within their spec. Anyone familiar with THX specs or SMTPE recommendations on black levels?

I have a 50g10 with 250 hours on it. I was really bummed to learn about this whole thing shortly after I bought it.

End result, even if Panasonic doesn't do the right thing, I came to the conclusion that for $1050 for a 50" plasma it was _still_ the best deal out there, and kept it.

Now with the prices dropping like a rock in the ocean, I just bought a 42g10 for $733 to go in the game room. Still beats a crummy bargain LCD IMO!

Still, I hope Panasonic ends up doing the right thing, but I have to wonder, as I saw someone posted here.. that if their voltage algorithm is too aggressive, it blacks will get bad, and then improve again as the set continues to age...

Batpig, you may want to change the data for my ftL measurement. I re-measured tonight for the express purpose of ftL, rather than as part of the overall calibration I was doing previously. Using HCFR software, i1LT and the avs disk 0ire window pattern, I had previously given you a reading of .016 ftL on my 46S1 with 1650 hours. Tonight I re-measured, making sure there was no IR. I also checked off the "average many reads on dark measurements" box that I had read about a few pages earlier in this thread. Now at 1750 hours, I'm showing a reading of .011 ftL. The meter had warmed up on the display for 60 minutes before it was calibrated. Then the readings were taken. I think there was probably a greater risk for ir in my previous readings, as I had been in the service menu, etc... before running my gray scale.

Man, I got the $19.95 special and I gave the painter a fifth of burbon- great paint job if you don't mind the orange peel dimple. Yes, I do know that the dimple, like on a golf ball, improved my gas milage and did not go away no matter how many washings.

Wish I could say the same for my Panny.