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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 212

post #6331 of 11163
Finally got my Ideal Lume Standard bias light and I'm pleased to report that it helps a lot with the increased black level issue. My wife was out of town so when she got back we went to watch Survivor HD and she immediately said what did you do. I asked her what she meant and she said the TV looks good again like when I first got it. I know not very scientific but my wife doesn't usually notice these things so I was surprised she saw a difference. The only bummer is now I wonder how much better it would look with a bias light and black levels that didn't rise!
post #6332 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxflinn View Post

has anyone read that review ?? it seems that the new g20 doesnt get close to a kuro with blacks , and thats before they start to turn grey , what a joke , even with the kuro engineers help , they cant match a 2 year old tv ....

I could be wrong but I think the most of Kuro technology is in V20 and V25.
Hopefully many of the next year models will have it too.
post #6333 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graven Images View Post

Although I'm certain I read the answer to this question a few hundred pages back...
Is Amazon at $161 currently the best place to buy the XR i1D LT?


This has been posted a number of times.

http://www.adorama.com/GHEODLT.html?...67848965270674

Larry
post #6334 of 11163
Thanks very much Larry. Not trying to be redundant, but prices are almost as fluid as Panasonic's black levels... almost. At any rate, time to get back to my movie... Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger's "Grey Narcissus"
post #6335 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JC74 View Post

I don't doubt that such comparison shots show which screen is darker, although I have no way of knowing which shot is closer to what I'd see IRL. It's the shots that show a bright gray screen and claim, "OMG, my blacks turned gray over night" that I'm skeptical of.

Yes you absolutely should be skeptical. Shots are worthless without a 'before' and 'after'.

The LCD shouldn't be used as a comparison, it should be included as a control. Months down the road when the plasmas blacks have elevated, the LCD will still be giving similar results. Then it will be worthy of comparison.

I don't have a meter, so I'll have to rely on my memory and some reference shots to compare once I've clocked up more hours on my 50" V10.
I have a 2 year old Dell 2407W LCD to use as a control and have used the same camera settings as Orta as they deliver a similar result to what I actually see.

But to post my images now (after 100hrs) would be utterly pointless as they have nothing to reference them with.
post #6336 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

Well then consider the LG 55LH90 as well. For full backlit LED LCD, this is a great performer. The newer Sammy edge lit LEDs are eye popping in bright light but the flashlighting and screen uniformity issues hold them back. Of course there's always Sony.

Well, funnily enough LG are giving a free 32" HD set with any purchase of their 55" models here in Aus, so the thought did cross my mind. Its just the reviews aren't so great for the LGs (that I've managed to find)
post #6337 of 11163
With four tv's in my place I might as well buy one too. I'll be able to check the black level on my new V10 and then be disappointed when I check it again later on. Nothing like buying a toy that will disappoint you. At least I'll probably have fun using it.
post #6338 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Specka View Post

Well, funnily enough LG are giving a free 32" HD set with any purchase of their 55" models here in Aus, so the thought did cross my mind. Its just the reviews aren't so great for the LGs (that I've managed to find)

Well heck, just get an extended warranty and you should be good to go. Don't know what they're asking in Aus dollars but the 55LH90 can be had for under $2K US almost everywhere in the States. Getting a 32" HD thrown in promotionally sounds too good to pass up.

The PQ of the LH90 is surprisingly good for LCD and rates quite high. The Matte screen should work well with your lighting. And it has one of the best User menus in the business allowing for full Service Menu adjustment. Strange, funky bezel though ... but I kinda like it. If you haven't read it already, here is a link to AVS member/calibrator CHAD B's review on the set:

https://clevelandplasma.com/store/20...views/lg55lh90

There are others there as well, including Sammys we've already discussed like the B860.
post #6339 of 11163
Yes, like a science project.

My 54V10 is a September 2009 build. At 780 hours it is 0.013, using a Minolta T-1.

Has anyone detected increased power levels? 50V10 s/b 590W and 54V10 s/b 606, as stated in the specs.
post #6340 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by alettiere View Post

Yes and this is actually pointed out in the review. Although this guy measured a .004fL for black-levels on the Panny. If I recall, this is what people were getting on the 8th generation Kuro sets.

I'm very interesting to see what the V-Series delivers. Well, during the first few hundred hours of use that is

He didn't measure 0.004 fL, he measured 0.04 cd/m^2 (0.012 fL).
post #6341 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Specka View Post

Well, funnily enough LG are giving a free 32" HD set with any purchase of their 55" models here in Aus, so the thought did cross my mind. Its just the reviews aren't so great for the LGs (that I've managed to find)

I'm telling you guys, check out the Toshiba 55SV670U-It's the least expensive local dimming set and has performance in the same range, but a tad under the LG, and Samsung, but loads of features and not excessive soap opera look.
post #6342 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

I'm telling you guys, check out the Toshiba 55SV670U-It's the least expensive local dimming set and has performance in the same range, but a tad under the LG, and Samsung, but loads of features and not excessive soap opera look.

Thanks for the heads-up. Will give it a better look-see. Last time I was in BB I think they had an open box for a very good price. I liked the new bezel design. I know some folks don't but I think it enhances the set.

I'm sure I'll always be a plasma guy but I like to keep my options open.
post #6343 of 11163
Just a headsup. I had my local Panasonic rep come into my store today. Haven't seen him in a couple weeks and I told him I had a question. Before I could even finish my sentence, he knew what I was going to ask. He did raise a good question though. Does anyone know if there is extensive research going on with Samsung and LG plasmas (from CNET or AVSforum members/calibrators) to do a comparison of black levels with other manufacturers at different hour intervals?

Looks like this news is spreading like wildfire.
post #6344 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO1 View Post

Finally got my Ideal Lume Standard bias light and I'm pleased to report that it helps a lot with the increased black level issue. My wife was out of town so when she got back we went to watch Survivor HD and she immediately said what did you do. I asked her what she meant and she said the TV looks good again like when I first got it. I know not very scientific but my wife doesn't usually notice these things so I was surprised she saw a difference. The only bummer is now I wonder how much better it would look with a bias light and black levels that didn't rise!

Without bias light, my 65S1 with 0.006 ftL MLL looks great. With bias light? It's simply awesome. It's difficult to notice the movie bars and my bias light is not even all that bright. I have the 13W lamp and 90% of it is covered to reduce its output.

Yup, I'm going to savor the good times while it lasts! I even told my wife not to leave the TV on unnecessarily like she sometimes does while cooking. lol

I think there will be two winners out this mess: X-Rite and CinemaQuest!
post #6345 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by luciano1213 View Post

But the Kuro cost much more than the Panasonics. Isn't this because of the more costly technology used to achieve these lower black levels? Panasonic can make sets that match Kuro's blacks but at a cost. They just can't do it at a price that would compete with LG, Samsung etc.If you want one at these prices, you'll have to settle for these black level readings.

hmmm , isnt the main cost of tech , in the research and developement ?? the kuro engineers already knew how , its just a case of implementing it on panny platforms , the kuro tech dont involve gold and diamonds , just knowledge and decent workmanship , looks like thats too much for panny ...
post #6346 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by germanplumber View Post

Just a headsup. I had my local Panasonic rep come into my store today. Haven't seen him in a couple weeks and I told him I had a question. Before I could even finish my sentence, he knew what I was going to ask. He did raise a good question though. Does anyone know if there is extensive research going on with Samsung and LG plasmas (from CNET or AVSforum members/calibrators) to do a comparison of black levels with other manufacturers at different hour intervals?

Looks like this news is spreading like wildfire.

So looks like Panasonic is trying to divert the attention instead of responding to the customer's concerns.

I would recommend all reviewers demand Panasonic and other Plasma manufacturer to submit their 2010 Plasma for testing only after they have past this so call normal rise in MLL or over 1000-2000 hours of break-in. The result then should be closer to what the owners of these sets expect down the road, otherwise they should refuse reviewing any sets submitted by the vendors. This is reseasonable because the precharge voltage changed is build-in by purpose, a so call "design feature", relative to the usage of the product.

Any products that have automatic adjustments made to the product "by design" in relationship to time that result in changes in the performance of the product should be tested differently because the performance change is different from natural wear of the components itself.
post #6347 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxflinn View Post

hmmm , isnt the main cost of tech , in the research and developement ?? the kuro engineers already knew how , its just a case of implementing it on panny platforms , the kuro tech dont involve gold and diamonds , just knowledge and decent workmanship , looks like thats too much for panny ...

And you know that because you designed and produced how many TVs? I don't understand why is it so difficult to comprehend that for a G10 price you will not get a Kuro-like TV. There was a reason, why Kuros cost what they cost. And as you can see, even that high price could not keep Pioneer in plasma business. It's not always the best one winning (there are numerous examples from the past, with e.g. ms windows popping into my head).

If you check the patent thing, you can clearly see from the graph, that the Panasonic engineers had to face the problem with lower contrast in the first couple hundred hours. They could apply the high voltage from the beginning and have the TV start with horrible contrast (and high BL) which would improve over time, or they could implement a feature, which would start with low voltage and increment it over time (giving better contrast and BL in the beginning and worsening over time, but reaching the same levels in the end).

If you were a Panasonic engineering/marketing department, which route would you choose?
post #6348 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

I also emailed THX (THXDisplays@thx.com) a couple of hours ago, documenting my black level doubling through meter readings, etc.

I have not yet heard back from THX, but am somewhat hopeful that they will:

1) demonstrate that after a 100% or 200% black level rise, Panasonic plasmas do not operate within the THX-certified specifications and;

2) request/demand that Panasonic correct their error or retract their claims to THX certification (with the fix being the more optimal outcome, of course).

For the new people just discovering this thread, this is not merely about the lightness of our black/blank screens. Contrast ratio is proportionately diminished as the black level elevates and, hence, degrades ALL visible content. For instance, if your black levels double (lighten by 100%), your contrast ratio is halved. This is where my set stands after only 150 hours. I would be alarmed if my post-rise screen were to be deemed THX-worthy.

For Panasonic to do nothing about this is not only bad for us discerning Panny owners, but also for THX's reputation, whose logo is stamped on these clearly defective sets. Hopefully THX will become our ally in pressuring Panasonic to make things right.

I encourage anyone who has hard data regarding their black level change to contact THX, as well. Their responses so far indicate that they are taking this matter seriously. This is one of the better ideas I have seen around here in a while. Thanks to whomever started this ball rolling.

I am sure they will be in contact soon. I got another email this morning from them asking about my calibration, when it was done, by who, etc.
post #6349 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

And you know that because you designed and produced how many TVs? I don't understand why is it so difficult to comprehend that for a G10 price you will not get a Kuro-like TV. There was a reason, why Kuros cost what they cost. And as you can see, even that high price could not keep Pioneer in plasma business. It's not always the best one winning (there are numerous examples from the past, with e.g. ms windows popping into my head).

If you check the patent thing, you can clearly see from the graph, that the Panasonic engineers had to face the problem with lower contrast in the first couple hundred hours. They could apply the high voltage from the beginning and have the TV start with horrible contrast (and high BL) which would improve over time, or they could implement a feature, which would start with low voltage and increment it over time (giving better contrast and BL in the beginning and worsening over time, but reaching the same levels in the end).

If you were a Panasonic engineering/marketing department, which route would you choose?

i didnt know there was a route to choose ?? if so , what route did pioneer choose ?? im not technically minded regarding the inner workings of plasma tvs , maybe you are ?? i guess i was hoping that panasonic could make a tv at least as good as a kuro , given that they have many ex pioneer people on board , it doesnt look like they can , unless the v series is that tv , lets hope so ...
post #6350 of 11163
Model: TC-P65S1
Build date: October 2009
Meter: Eye One Display LT
Hours: 332
MML: 0.008 ftL
post #6351 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by luciano1213 View Post

Don't know the answer to that in this case.But these panels have to be manufactured.I'm sure Panasonic would have to retool their plants to accommodate this.Even if they took over the plants that Pioneer used to make these panels,maybe it's not enough to accommodate a larger volume.Pioneer sure didn't sell nearly as many panels as the other companies.So even with the R and D already done and payed for,maybe it's still too cost prohibitive to sell panels using this technology.That is, at a price that can compete with a comparably sized LG or Samsung.

i guess very few people would actually know , understand , what pioneer did to achieve such amazing results , perhaps d nice or somebody tech minded on here may be able to explain it (in laymans terms if possible ), and why it would be likely to be expensive ..

the way things are going re panny rising blacks , matching the kuro may be irrelevent , my own irish , 46g10e still seems fine to me , i have not measured it , money is too tight to be buying meters , but it looks fine , there is not a lot being said about this issue on the various uk , irish tech sites though , which got me thinking ..

correct me if im wrong , the 09 pannys sold in the states had black enhancer , corrector , whatever , i dont think uk and european models have any kind of black enhancer , corrector tool ,

the rising black problem is extremely rare in the uk from what i can gather , i wonder is it possible , that in trying to satisfy the more demanding u.s. market , panny made a slip up ?? probably way off the mark , but hey ...
post #6352 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by germanplumber View Post

Just a headsup. I had my local Panasonic rep come into my store today. Haven't seen him in a couple weeks and I told him I had a question. Before I could even finish my sentence, he knew what I was going to ask. He did raise a good question though. Does anyone know if there is extensive research going on with Samsung and LG plasmas (from CNET or AVSforum members/calibrators) to do a comparison of black levels with other manufacturers at different hour intervals?

Looks like this news is spreading like wildfire.

I believe it's already been reported that Panasonic is the only manufacturer with this issue.
post #6353 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by germanplumber View Post

Just a headsup. I had my local Panasonic rep come into my store today. Haven't seen him in a couple weeks and I told him I had a question. Before I could even finish my sentence, he knew what I was going to ask. He did raise a good question though. Does anyone know if there is extensive research going on with Samsung and LG plasmas (from CNET or AVSforum members/calibrators) to do a comparison of black levels with other manufacturers at different hour intervals?

Looks like this news is spreading like wildfire.

Not sure if anyone is doing "extensive research" but did D-
Nice, who has calibrated tons of TVs of all brands over the years, not say that Panasonic is the only brand that has this issue?

Also, since many people noticed this, then did the measurements to confirm it, that is why "extensive research" is being done. If no one suddenly noticed their panel getting brighter, this whole thing would never have happened.
post #6354 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxflinn View Post

i guess very few people would actually know , understand , what pioneer did to achieve such amazing results , perhaps d nice or somebody tech minded on here may be able to explain it (in laymans terms if possible ), and why it would be likely to be expensive ..

On the manufacturing side, the key technology that enabled KURO black levels was coating crystalline Magnesium Oxide on top of the phosphor material. While this may have been an expensive step I think the overall high cost of Pioneer PDPs was due to the one-at-a-time method of manufacturing.
post #6355 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxflinn View Post

i didnt know there was a route to choose ?? if so , what route did pioneer choose ?? im not technically minded regarding the inner workings of plasma tvs , maybe you are ?? i guess i was hoping that panasonic could make a tv at least as good as a kuro , given that they have many ex pioneer people on board , it doesnt look like they can , unless the v series is that tv , lets hope so ...

Well, it's obvious, isn't it? Pioneer took the costly route and the price they had to pay ended in closing down the plants.
Panasonic took the more cost effective route and sold millions of sets making 90% of the people loving their TV (excluding enthusiasts here who thought they will get Kuro blacks for an LG price).

With today's technology the better blacks you get the more money you play for. Check the last Top Gear series where they tested some Nissan or Toyota (can't remember what it was) which was made out of carbon fiber and other NASA stuff, excellent handling, acceleration, etc. but has costed more than 3x of a supercar like Ferrari or Lamborghini.
post #6356 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

Well, it's obvious, isn't it? Pioneer took the costly route and the price they had to pay ended in closing down the plants.
Panasonic took the more cost effective route and sold millions of sets making 90% of the people loving their TV (excluding enthusiasts here who thought they will get Kuro blacks for an LG price).

With today's technology the better blacks you get the more money you play for. Check the last Top Gear series where they tested some Nissan or Toyota (can't remember what it was) which was made out of carbon fiber and other NASA stuff, excellent handling, acceleration, etc. but has costed more than 3x of a supercar like Ferrari or Lamborghini.

Sorry, panny shouldn't advertise that it has Infinite Blacks then. That is their main selling point. Even cnet reported the "best blacks" and were on par with Kuros. That is why I bought one.
This is false advertising and panny should be taken to the cleaners by the lawyers.
post #6357 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

On the manufacturing side, the key technology that enabled KURO black levels was coating crystalline Magnesium Oxide on top of the phosphor material. While this may have been an expensive step I think the overall high cost of Pioneer PDPs was due to the one-at-a-time method of manufacturing.

I believe this. My g10 was mass produced in Mexico I believe so it didn't cost much to make. I suspect if Pio mass produced their sets they would reduce production costs greatly & the tv's would have been cheaper to buy too. But they weren't catering to Joe Six Pack's price point either. They were in a specialty market moreso.
post #6358 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

If you were a Panasonic engineering/marketing department, which route would you choose?

The route that other plasma manufacturers took. ?

Obviously the route that Panasonic took isn't working, and that's something they should have tested and known about, and, done something different about it. At least that's the logical approach.
post #6359 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

Thanks for the heads-up. Will give it a better look-see. Last time I was in BB I think they had an open box for a very good price. I liked the new bezel design. I know some folks don't but I think it enhances the set.

I'm sure I'll always be a plasma guy but I like to keep my options open.

I hear the toshiba's produce light black levels fwiw
post #6360 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

Well, it's obvious, isn't it? Pioneer took the costly route and the price they had to pay ended in closing down the plants.
Panasonic took the more cost effective route and sold millions of sets making 90% of the people loving their TV (excluding enthusiasts here who thought they will get Kuro blacks for an LG price).

With today's technology the better blacks you get the more money you play for. Check the last Top Gear series where they tested some Nissan or Toyota (can't remember what it was) which was made out of carbon fiber and other NASA stuff, excellent handling, acceleration, etc. but has costed more than 3x of a supercar like Ferrari or Lamborghini.

Mironto, please don't perpetuate this falsehood of "enthusiasts expecting Kuro blacks for cheap prices."

Here is the bottom line:
- People received their sets new with X black level. This black level is not Kuro black and no one here ever claimed that they expected Kuro black. Nonetheless, the black level is excellent out of box.

- At some point in the future (1 month, 3 months, 6 months, ? months) X black level unexpectedly rises to 3X. Yes, it is blatantly obvious when it occurs. You do not have to look at an all-black screen to notice it - general viewing is affected and appears washed out in comparison to the out-of-box picture. Not just dark scenes but ALL scenes are affected. This is not some isolated problem that only affects dark or black scenes.

- Although everyone here can agree that the 1 million to 1 contrast ratio was a bunch of marketing hoopla, a 3X rise in less than a year would put their advertised contrast at 250,000:1, in effect false advertising.

Considering that comparable display technologies do not degrade in performance in a matter of months (except for projection displays, which can be cleaned & have bulbs replaced), there is a reasonable expectation that the performance of the plasma TVs would not degrade within months of purchase.

We're not talking about carbon fiber rice burners, we're talking about TVs with highly advertised features ("Infinite Black") that are suddenly crippled without warning or remedy.
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