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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 213

post #6361 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by robstamack View Post

we're talking about TVs with highly advertised features ("Infinite Black") that are suddenly crippled without warning or remedy.

Yep!!!

Also it is beyond me why people are ordering new Pannys like wildfire over in the other thread. Not to mention the black level, but THX had issues on newly produced 2009 tvs. If I were in the market for a new TV I wouldn't be looking until they were on the market for at least 6 months.

I may be in the market for a new Panny in 2011 or 2012 if they fix the BL issue.
post #6362 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

I believe this. My g10 was mass produced in Mexico I believe so it didn't cost much to make. I suspect if Pio mass produced their sets they would reduce production costs greatly & the tv's would have been cheaper to buy too. But they weren't catering to Joe Six Pack's price point either. They were in a specialty market moreso.

This is a good point and I was going to say something similar.

I always thought the Pioneer plasmas were marketed more so for the true AV enthusiasts who wanted the absolute best (more so with the elite models) and were willing to pay the price. I think of Panasonic plasmas as marketed for the people who wanted a TV like the enthusiasts had , but didn't want to pay the premium.

Someone earlier posted that perhaps the Panasonics black levels were not sustainable with their current design and price point hence the increase (which is supposed to be gradual). Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I gather the intended gradual increase (not the big jump) brings the black levels to what the other brand's similarly priced plasmas start out with.

I truly believe you pay for what you get and perhaps expecting similar blacks as the Pioneers on a similarly featured television that costs almost half as much is a little too good to be true at this time. (not that it won't happen in the future).
post #6363 of 11163
It sounds to me like they were trying to make up for the panel slowly getting dimmer with time and screwed up the circuit or firmware controlling the gradual rise so for some it suddenly cranks up. If it's a firmware or electronics glitch, and not the actual panel itself, why can't they, or somebody, correct the firmware or replace or adjust the electronics that are going out of spec?
I don't have one of these sets but I'm considering a new one if I ever get some money ahead so I've been watching all these threads but I haven't read all of every one in case somebody all ready mentioned this.
So far it seems some folks convinced them to replace certain video control boards and the black levels went back to the original, but many times they cranked back up again.
post #6364 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by luciano1213 View Post

jackal2001 has perfectly summed up this ugly situation in one paragraph.
I'd just like to add one note, not that you all don't already know this.This deception appears to be continuing with the 2010 models.This is what really disgusts me.

I agree with both of you'll with this assumption. If the 2010 models will raise to the same level in say 1 yr or less and equal cheaper sets, then it is misleading the avg customer with all that contrast ratio and black talk. They'll go and read an HD Guru report where he'll be lathering himself with the Panasonic soap and keeling over with crown in hand, and the customers are going to rush out and buy them, 3d glasses et al.

To be fair, the sets are good. BUT, don't advertise those and charge a premium if they are not going to hold. Then we have no right to complain.

To compare to a Pioneer after 2-3 yrs of technology improvement is not unfathomable. It happens in the computer industry ALL the time.
post #6365 of 11163
Quote:


Regarding Panasonic Plasma Firmware Upgrade

Dear Valued Panasonic Customer:

At Panasonic, we are constantly working to improve your satisfaction with our products. As such, we would like to inform you that a firmware upgrade has been made available for the following Panasonic Plasma Television models: TH-42PZ77U, TH-42PZ700U and TH-42PZ700UA.

If you own one of these models, you can perform the plasma firmware upgrade yourself. Click on the "Self Service" tab above to verify if an upgrade is required for your Panasonic Plasma Television set and download it yourself. If you'd rather receive the firmware by mail, click on "Order Firmware."

The main purpose for performing this upgrade is to improve the reliability of your television. You can continue to use your television as you normally would after the upgrade is completed. Panasonic takes great pride in excellent quality, and customer satisfaction is our number one goal.

Your patronage as a satisfied Panasonic customer is valued and highly appreciated.

Thank you.

http://www.panasonic.com/announce/updatemytv/info.html

1st.LOL
2nd.does anybody knows What does it do?
post #6366 of 11163
all this talk makes me wonder. i was planning on picking up a plasma and it happened to be a panasonic. however now after this thread im not so sure.

my question is, AFTER the black levels rise 3x or whatever it is....how does that compare to the samsung plasmas? or even the lcd's? everyone says "oh it looks like a cheap lcd now" which doesnt say much. how about some numbers? i see numbers for the panasonics now, but not numbers for comparable tvs. and a search doesnt help

i mean if even after the levels rise its still better better than an lcd and sammy plasma, maybe ill still buy one.
post #6367 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

The route that other plasma manufacturers took. ?

Obviously the route that Panasonic took isn't working, and that's something they should have tested and known about, and, done something different about it. At least that's the logical approach.

Why it should not be working? You get a set with similar black levels (after the rise) like the competition (in the same price category). Plus you get better blacks for the first 500 hours as a bonus

Panasonic used some false advertising, but just because the TV costs thousands of $ Panasonic is the most evil company in the world? I do not hear people filling law suits against tooth paste companies, who promise you 100% whiter teeth within a week or Axe with ads full of hottest chicks climaxing just by sniffing slightest breeze of Axe effect off a nerd bloke.

In my eyes it's about even in terms of morale and every sane person understands that the Axe effect is the same advertising scheme as Panasonic's infinite black.
post #6368 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

I truly believe you pay for what you get and perhaps expecting similar blacks as the Pioneers on a similarly featured television that costs almost half as much is a little too good to be true at this time. (not that it won't happen in the future).

I simply want a TV that has similiar black levels after 5,000 hours as the day I took it out of the box. Panasonic seems to be the only manufacturer tha intentionally changes the black level over time. I don't necessarily need Kuro black levels, but I do want consistency over time.

This whole issue with the Panasonics has pretty much pushed me out of the HDTV market for now. My CRT has great blacks, no motion blur, and is viewable from any angle. It just doesn't do HD. I started reading this thread with the intention of getting a 2010 Panasonic, but I'll wait now. Maybe OLED someday will get to a decent panel size at a decent price.
post #6369 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by alucard3 View Post

http://www.panasonic.com/announce/updatemytv/info.html

1st.LOL
2nd.does anybody knows What does it do?

I don't have a serial #. You can call and ask.

http://www.panasonic.com/announce/up...tv/service.asp
EDIT : I put in the sample serial # in that image below and it indicated its D-board fw. I don't know what that does though.

The interesting thing about that is it asks for a SERIAL #. I wonder if not ALL tv's for that model are affected. Anyone know ? Even as a general fw update principle.
post #6370 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

Why it should not be working? You get a set with similar black levels (after the rise) like the competition (in the same price category). Plus you get better blacks for the first 500 hours as a bonus

Panasonic used some false advertising, but just because the TV costs thousands of $ Panasonic is the most evil company in the world? I do not hear people filling law suits against tooth paste companies, who promise you 100% whiter teeth within a week or Axe with ads full of hottest chicks climaxing just by sniffing slightest breeze of Axe effect off a nerd bloke.

In my eyes it's about even in terms of morale and every sane person understands that the Axe effect is the same advertising scheme as Panasonic's infinite black.

im sorry but thats nonsence , and the kind of comment thats going to annoy people ...

this thread is here for a reason , because people have spent thousands of dollars on a flawed product , the toothpaste analagy is just stupid..
post #6371 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by belfert View Post

I simply want a TV that has similiar black levels after 5,000 hours as the day I took it out of the box. Panasonic seems to be the only manufacturer tha intentionally changes the black level over time. I don't necessarily need Kuro black levels, but I do want consistency over time.

Couldn't agree more.

All people are asking for is what was shown at first is what remains for a reasonable amount of time.
post #6372 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by unap16 View Post

Couldn't agree more.

All people are asking for is what was shown at first is what remains for a reasonable amount of time.

absolutely right ....
post #6373 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by luciano1213 View Post

Looks like David K. at CNET is no longer a Pansonic fan, although this comes at no surprise.He has pre Oscar article listing 6 red carpet ready HDTVs.That is 6 of the highest rated TVs from the past year.1 Sony,2 LGs,2 Samsungs.The only Panasonic is the very expensive TCP-54Z1.Funny thing though.If you check his review of this model,he included an update to his original review of this TV also,dated March 3,2010 stating he can no longer recommend buying this TV.
So what's he saying? Even though he doesn't recommend buying it, it's still one of the best from 2009? You tell me.

I saw this and thought it was funny. It's as if he felt he had to list a Panasonic model, but couldn't list the G or V since they had specifically been implicated in the black level rise so they decided to throw the way expensive Z in there since the black level rise on that set is rarely talked about (because it was not as widely circulated).

I wonder how much advertising dollars CNET gets from panasonic. When the 2010 models get reviewed do you think that CNET will have a disclaimer about how the set's black level will rise over time or something like that? I thought that CNET had already changed some of the wording on the "Do not recommend" line and wonder if there is going to be pressure from Pansonic not to print so much stuff about the black leve rise on the 2010 models.
post #6374 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

In my eyes it's about even in terms of morale and every sane person understands that the Axe effect is the same advertising scheme as Panasonic's infinite black.

This is logical. However, toothpaste & deo companies don't have sites reviewing their products. It's a different league. What if the toothpaste stopped protecting you after 1/3rd of the tube got over. Or after you finished 1/8th of that Axe, the women were running for cover.
post #6375 of 11163
I tried calling panny yesterday to speak to a manager or supervisor as my case # is still open. They were supposed to call me back but never did.
After 30 minutes of being on hold I was told they couldn't find a supervisor and they would call me back. Again they never did.
I will be calling back monday..... again.

If they give me the same ol same ol about the tvs functioning as designed, I will agree with them. Yes I am going to agree with them. I am going to tell them that the TVs are functioning as designed, but there is a design problem as panasonic has advertised at having infinite black and mine is the same as an LCD. Clearly this is a design/software/firmware flaw and that my TV should be replaced under warranty.

I'll see if it gets me anywhere.
post #6376 of 11163
Here's my advice that will help some owners FWIW.....

1. Look closely at your tv, does it have a bad stuck pixel, if yes they'll refund the cost of your set as it can't be fixed.

2. If you run the scrolling bar do you see bright spots on the panel? If yes it can't be fixed they'll refund.........

I called about these issues except the stuck pixel which they noticed upon seeing the set. They called me back & they have a zero stuck pixel policy. I am in the process of buying a new tv paid for by Panasonic & I could by a Samsung if I wanted to. They actually don't care about that either. They can't give you a G10 or anything as there aren't any. Trust me I tried to find one & it has to be available from the company you purchased it from. It doesn't matter if another store chain has it & you didn't buy it there.

My point is if you're not happy with the set look for other issues. No one can say a pixel is stuck or a screen is blotchy by design. Voltage increments are by design whether we think it's a good design or not.

Of course this doesn't help everyone but I'll bet someone gets a new set by trying what I suggest. If you do please PM me a thanks.....
post #6377 of 11163
I have a 50" G15 with 2000+ hrs and I have had the mentioned black levels rising. My bars are now a very dark gray and the content on the screen that shows black is "bezel black". My picture is still great and other than not having absolute black bars is fine.

I plan on getting my black levels measured and maybe get the TV calibrated and will go from there.

Like I said earlier once people got the lawyers involved we are now screwed.
post #6378 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

I saw this and thought it was funny. It's as if he felt he had to list a Panasonic model, but couldn't list the G or V since they had been specifically been implicated in the black level rise so they decided to throw the way expensive Z in there since the black level rise on that set is rarely talked about (because it was not as widely circulated).

I wonder how much advertising dollars CNET gets from panasonic. When the 2010models get reviewed do you think that CNET will have a disclaimer about how the set's black level will rise over time or something like that? I thought that CNET had already changed some of the wording on the "Do not recommend" line and wonder if there is going to be pressure from Pansonic not to print so much stuff about the black leve rise on the 2010 models.

The article rates the most stylish-looking TV's, not their performance. Despite the issues with the 12g's, there's no denying that the Z1 is pretty sleek.
post #6379 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

I tried calling panny yesterday to speak to a manager or supervisor as my case # is still open. They were supposed to call me back but never did.
After 30 minutes of being on hold I was told they couldn't find a supervisor and they would call me back. Again they never did.
I will be calling back monday..... again.

If they give me the same ol same ol about the tvs functioning as designed, I will agree with them. Yes I am going to agree with them. I am going to tell them that the TVs are functioning as designed, but there is a design problem as panasonic has advertised at having infinite black and mine is the same as an LCD. Clearly this is a design/software/firmware flaw and that my TV should be replaced under warranty.

I'll see if it gets me anywhere.

Would you mind asking them if the design for the 58 & 65's are the same. If they say yes, then tell them your black level is 3 times higher than theirs and you will be satisfied if it meets the design of their 65's. See what they say to that.
post #6380 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignoreme View Post

all this talk makes me wonder. i was planning on picking up a plasma and it happened to be a panasonic. however now after this thread im not so sure.

my question is, AFTER the black levels rise 3x or whatever it is....how does that compare to the samsung plasmas? or even the lcd's? everyone says "oh it looks like a cheap lcd now" which doesnt say much. how about some numbers? i see numbers for the panasonics now, but not numbers for comparable tvs. and a search doesnt help

i mean if even after the levels rise its still better better than an lcd and sammy plasma, maybe ill still buy one.

I bought Panny for 2 reasons anti-glare and its blacks. With the elevated blacks it's about the same as competition. If you don't think you'll have a problem with glare, go for the competition. I returned an LG plasma (due to crazy glare) that had the best picture I've ever seen. It's been said before but great blacks are one part to having a great picture. In any case, I would stay away from Panny's. There are better TVs out there.
post #6381 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by belfert View Post

I simply want a TV that has similiar black levels after 5,000 hours as the day I took it out of the box. Panasonic seems to be the only manufacturer tha intentionally changes the black level over time. I don't necessarily need Kuro black levels, but I do want consistency over time.

This whole issue with the Panasonics has pretty much pushed me out of the HDTV market for now. My CRT has great blacks, no motion blur, and is viewable from any angle. It just doesn't do HD. I started reading this thread with the intention of getting a 2010 Panasonic, but I'll wait now. Maybe OLED someday will get to a decent panel size at a decent price.

My advice: Don't buy an HDTV. If you've sat on your hands this long and are already pissed about the performance of a TV you don't own, you will be disappointed no matter what you buy. Take up Canasata perhaps.
post #6382 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

Thanks for the heads-up. Will give it a better look-see. Last time I was in BB I think they had an open box for a very good price. I liked the new bezel design. I know some folks don't but I think it enhances the set.

I'm sure I'll always be a plasma guy but I like to keep my options open.

Home Theater Mag gave a fairly glowing review to the Toshiba. They liked it better than the LG and the Samsung 8500. Cnet was a bit more harsh on it.

With Panasonic putting out lemons these days, LED isn't a bad way to go.
post #6383 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabigwaxy View Post

I bought Panny for 2 reasons anti-glare and its blacks. With the elevated blacks it's about the same as competition. If you don't think you'll have a problem with glare, go for the competition. I returned an LG plasma (due to crazy glare) that had the best picture I've ever seen. It's been said before but great blacks are one part to having a great picture. In any case, I would stay away from Panny's. There are better TVs out there.

Which LG did you have and what model of Panny do you currently own?

And how have you been finding the phosphor trail (both Panny and LG)?
post #6384 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

Would you mind asking them if the design for the 58 & 65's are the same. If they say yes, then tell them your black level is 3 times higher than theirs and you will be satisfied if it meets the design of their 65's. See what they say to that.

Will do. Last time I spoke to someone that asked how many hours were on my set. I guessed over 2000 as I couldn't tell since I had my board replaced. They said I couldn't compair someone elses tv that had 1000hrs on it compared to mine as the levels WOULD be different.
Right now I am at 300hrs since Jan 4th when i had the board replaced.
So I am averaging 150hrs a month. I'm guessing this would equal somewhere around 1350hrs on my tv total since I bought it taking the average monthly viewing.
post #6385 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mironto View Post

Why it should not be working?

I don't know if that's rhetorical, or what you mean....or if you mis-worded that. "Obviously the route that Panasonic took isn't working," speaks for itself. The problem exists, therefore, what they are doing is not working. Furthermore, you don't hear these complaints about other brands. Therefore one can only conclude from that they are doing something wrong, and whatever they are doing is not working. That's what I meant.


Quote:
You get a set with similar black levels (after the rise) like the competition (in the same price category). Plus you get better blacks for the first 500 hours as a bonus

But the competition, (as I have come to understand it in this thread), has better blacks after the "Panasonic rise". Kuro's for example, as pointed out in the Kuro owners threads, actually look better as time goes by.

I would think people would much rather have a "stable" HDTV that looks "good" throughout its life, than have one that looks "great" for X hours then only looks "good" after X hours. The latter leaves one feeling ripped off, and rightly so.

In keeping with your analogy; then Panasonic at the point of X hours when the blacks start to turn gray, they should then give their customers "a rebate of some kind".


Quote:
Panasonic used some false advertising, but just because the TV costs thousands of $ Panasonic is the most evil company in the world?

I can't speak for others, but I never said they were "evil". They are however, as you also pointed out, engaging in false advertising, which subjects them to a potential class-action lawsuit. When people shell-out a thousand+ $ for something, they expect it to work as advertised.


Quote:
I do not hear people filling law suits against tooth paste companies, who promise you 100% whiter teeth within a week or Axe with ads full of hottest chicks climaxing just by sniffing slightest breeze of Axe effect off a nerd bloke.

But the toothpaste does not start to turn your teeth gray after using it for X months. (They don't guarantee that anyway, they always say the disclaimer "Results may vary", or if they do have a guarantee, you get your money back).

Regarding a Kuro, and how this doesn't affect them, (or other plasma displays, or as much), I don't think this has to do with the panel itself. Claims are that it's a voltage problem to the panel, and could be fixed or at the least helped, if the voltage changes were applied in a more linear fashion, than what may be more exponential (but it is obviously the voltage changes need to be applied differently). This would seem to indicate the "logic" that Panasonic is using (either chip, EEPROM, whatever), is using incorrect algorithms or is faulty.
post #6386 of 11163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignoreme View Post

all this talk makes me wonder. i was planning on picking up a plasma and it happened to be a panasonic. however now after this thread im not so sure.

my question is, AFTER the black levels rise 3x or whatever it is....how does that compare to the samsung plasmas? or even the lcd's? everyone says "oh it looks like a cheap lcd now" which doesnt say much. how about some numbers? i see numbers for the panasonics now, but not numbers for comparable tvs. and a search doesnt help

i mean if even after the levels rise its still better better than an lcd and sammy plasma, maybe ill still buy one.

Based on calibration reports, Samsung's fat '09 PDP's (e.g. B650) mostly seem to measure somewhere in the mid-teens (~0.015fL +/- 0.003). '08 CCFL LCD's (e.g. a Samsung A550, A650) seem to be somewhere in the low to mid twenties at a 50-60fL white peak. Personally, my PC monitor is a 32A550 that measures 0.023fL @ 56fL. I have no experience with '09 LCD's (or the 2010's obviously) so I can't comment there.
post #6387 of 11163
I have a 50X1. I think I just bought a 2008 model of a 720P LG model. The picture was the best I ever saw. Unfortunately for me, the glare was a real concern and I couldn't relocate or mount the TV. I live in a small house with limited options. Go check out the LGs. Maybe their blacks won't be as nice as Panny but they will win on about every other front.
post #6388 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Based on calibration reports, Samsung's fat '09 PDP's (e.g. B650) mostly seem to measure somewhere in the mid-teens (~0.015fL +/- 0.003). '08 CCFL LCD's (e.g. a Samsung A550, A650) seem to be somewhere in the low to mid twenties at a 50-60fL white peak. Personally, my PC monitor is a 32A550 that measures 0.023fL @ 56fL. I have no experience with '09 LCD's (or the 2010's obviously) so I can't comment there.

I had a 58B650 which I had to return because of unbearable buzzing. I had it next to my 50PZ85U for a few days to do a direct comparison. The blacks & MLL to my eyes were virtually identical but the Panasonic had notably better shadow detail. Unfortunately, I did not have a meter when I had the Samsung but I just measured my PZ85U at 0.021 - 0.023. My 58S1 (B650 replacement) measured 0.006 - 0.008. There was a noticeable difference going from the B650 Samsung to S1 with regards to blacks, without a doubt.

It is also worth noting that I absolutely loved the pq of the Samsung. It definitely had superior colors and better processing than any of my Panasonic plasmas and if mine didn't buzz like crazy, I would have been thrilled with the set.
post #6389 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Based on calibration reports, Samsung's fat '09 PDP's (e.g. B650) mostly seem to measure somewhere in the mid-teens (~0.015fL +/- 0.003). '08 CCFL LCD's (e.g. a Samsung A550, A650) seem to be somewhere in the low to mid twenties at a 50-60fL white peak. Personally, my PC monitor is a 32A550 that measures 0.023fL @ 56fL. I have no experience with '09 LCD's (or the 2010's obviously) so I can't comment there.

well, i jumped the gun and purchased a sammy UN46B6000VF literally no more than 20 mins ago. they had it at bestbuy for $1299 (supposedly $1200 off the original price). it looked good in the store but i am a novice at this. it was mostly the price with the price break that made me buy it. hopefully the black levels are good enough for me (ill have to research and see what they really are), im sure to a total newb like me though itll be fine.

kind of sad though, since i was set on a plasma, a panasonic to be exact due to price and performance that i read about, but this thread was enough to scare me away from anything from panasonic until they change their attitude (can that even be expected from a multimillion dollar corp?)

i sometimes go out of my way to sacrifice and make a point (ie, not buying the panasonic because of the way they are handling this issue)...hope i didnt make a mistake. im off to do some more research to make myself feel better about my purchase, lol.
post #6390 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabigwaxy View Post

My advice: Don't buy an HDTV. If you've sat on your hands this long and are already pissed about the performance of a TV you don't own, you will be disappointed no matter what you buy. Take up Canasata perhaps.

This is exactly what I plan to do. I am just going to hold off on buying an HDTV for a few more years and see what develops. Hopefully prices will continue to drop.
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