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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 217

post #6481 of 10800
3/7/10 at 10:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by unap16 View Post

It's in the meta data:

Both have:

F2.8

1 sec of exposure.


in that case........ mustangs ur black levels are still good


at least compared to my tv using the same camera settings



vs

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post #6482 of 10800
3/7/10 at 10:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

in that case........ mustangs ur black levels are still good


at least compared to my tv using the same camera settings
[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/30cmzck.jpg[/]


vs

[IMG]http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1388/79820330.png[/]

I am seeing no metadata. Thus if I were to take your word for it then I have to say that my 3 year old LCD has better blacks than that G after a second of exposure.
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post #6483 of 10800
3/7/10 at 10:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by unap16 View Post

I am seeing no metadata. Thus if I were to take your word for it then I have to say that my 3 year old LCD has better blacks than that G after a second of exposure.

would resizing the image in photoshop remove the metadata?

if so I'll reupload it right off the camera
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post #6484 of 10800
3/7/10 at 10:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

in that case........ mustangs ur black levels are still good


at least compared to my tv using the same camera settings

This illustrates my point perfectly.

What good is your comparison? The list of variables that differ between your setups is potentially huge. Here are just a fraction of them that I can think of off the top of my head that can dramatically alter the results -

* You aren't using the same camera
* You aren't using the same TV settings
* You haven't got comparable hours clocked up on the phosphors
* You don't have the same ambient lighting conditions
* You haven't warmed the TV up to the same degree
* You aren't using the same source to view the black screen

The image retention in your shot is so bad that I can clearly read the OSD. Its an indication that either your set is dramatically different or you took this shot with little thought as to what you were doing. For all we know, the previous source which is burned into the display could be a full white screen and you've taken this shot merely seconds after changing from it.

Its an absolutely worthless comparison to make.
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post #6485 of 10800
3/7/10 at 10:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by unap16 View Post

I am seeing no metadata. Thus if I were to take your word for it then I have to say that my 3 year old LCD has better blacks than that G after a second of exposure.

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/2739/img9368.jpg
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post #6486 of 10800
3/7/10 at 10:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

would resizing the image in photoshop remove the metadata?

if so I'll reupload it right off the camera

Yes, it looks like your usage caused it strip away metadata.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/2739/img9368.jpg

Better. Thanks.

Yea, it looks like it's ISO 100 (Canon EOS are really good with noise)

I have to say, it really looks bad (with regards to the brightness of the tele)
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post #6487 of 10800
3/7/10 at 10:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

This illustrates my point perfectly.

What good is your comparison? The list of variables that differ between your setups is potentially huge. Here are just a fraction of them that I can think of off the top of my head that can dramatically alter the results -

* You aren't using the same camera
* You aren't using the same TV settings
* You haven't got comparable hours clocked up on the phosphors
* You don't have the same ambient lighting conditions
* You haven't warmed the TV up to the same degree
* You aren't using the same source to view the black screen

The image retention in your shot is so bad that I can clearly read the OSD. Its an indication that either your set is dramatically different or you took this shot with little thought as to what you were doing. For all we know, the previous source which is burned into the display could be a full white screen and you've taken this shot merely seconds after changing from it.

Its an absolutely worthless comparison to make.

the IR is so bad because IR severity goes hand in hand with the increased black levels.


this tv went from being something I replaced my Kuro with to being the worst tv I've ever owned

I would start using my Kuro 5080 again but unfortunately it's developed a stuck green pixel which is the only thing I can ever focus on when watching it
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post #6488 of 10800
3/7/10 at 11:05pm
mustangs1 and TheGuyInTheChair,

Do you not have an LCD monitor or laptop that you can place in front of your PDP? I can't believe I have to say this for the umpteenth time. Your pictures are all but useless if you don't have some kind of reference in the picture.

Are you folks using a 0 IRE? or are some of you lazy and just using a blank input, or pausing a Pioneer demo on a black scene? I can see the IR from the Pioneer demo you were watching. Or you paused it before the logo totally disappeared.

FOR THE LAST TIME, USE A 0 IRE!!!!! Get rid of your IR first, before snapping a photo. Use a reference. If you do not have an LCD to set beside your PDP, get a thick piece of black felt and cut out a square.

I uploaded a 0 IRE snapshot here on AVS, so no one has any excuse that they cannot reproduce a 0 IRE. Put it on an SD card and plug it into the side of your Panny.

 

Line Bleed, 0 IRE Images.zip 409.234375k . file
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post #6489 of 10800
3/7/10 at 11:14pm
Mustangs1,

You are just gong to have to trust us. At best you will only get some relative "proof" the blacks are increasing, but not absolute numbers in any meaningful way. And even that will require some rigor and additional testing to understand the variables and their influence.

However, your eyes will probably detect even more subtle changes than the digital shots with all the variables. Meanwhile, someone like Dnice and others that understand the variables will be tracking the absolute MLL values over hours with a meter anyway.
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post #6490 of 10800
3/8/10 at 12:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

mustangs1 and TheGuyInTheChair,

Do you not have an LCD monitor or laptop that you can place in front of your PDP? I can't believe I have to say this for the umpteenth time. Your pictures are all but useless if you don't have some kind of reference in the picture.

Are you folks using a 0 IRE? or are some of you lazy and just using a blank input, or pausing a Pioneer demo on a black scene? I can see the IR from the Pioneer demo you were watching. Or you paused it before the logo totally disappeared.

FOR THE LAST TIME, USE A 0 IRE!!!!! Get rid of your IR first, before snapping a photo. Use a reference. If you do not have an LCD to set beside your PDP, get a thick piece of black felt and cut out a square.

I uploaded a 0 IRE snapshot here on AVS, so no one has any excuse that they cannot reproduce a 0 IRE. Put it on an SD card and plug it into the side of your Panny.

Thanks to you I can now identify my own line bleeding. What other fun ways can I figure out the deficiencies of my tv?
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post #6491 of 10800
3/8/10 at 5:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

F that. Do you know how long class action suits take. You are looking at 5 years to see any results. I got involved with IBM with HDDs years ago and by the time I heard anything I didn't have my receipts, or the drives anymore. You needed tons of documentation, receipts, the drives, etc in order to get some money or an exchange.
I am not waiting 5 years to get my TV working the way it should be from day one.

Understood, but what other recourse (that has a chance of yielding result) do you have right now?
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post #6492 of 10800
3/8/10 at 5:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlh1005 View Post

Understood, but what other recourse (that has a chance of yielding result) do you have right now?

I'll find out in another hour when I call back and ask for a supervisor. They were to call me back but never did.
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post #6493 of 10800
3/8/10 at 5:36am
I finally got some free time, so I will be adding my data. I have a 54g10 with just under 3000 hours. I'll check tonight after work and provide some MLL readings with my eye-one LT. I've been trying to rack up the hours to see if I can reach that stabilization period.
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post #6494 of 10800
3/8/10 at 6:01am
http://hd.engadget.com/2008/05/07/pi...ends-hands-on/

Lots of images.....for perspective.
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post #6495 of 10800
3/8/10 at 6:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pochoboy View Post

Couldn't you wait another year or so. From what the comments I saw from D-Nice was that this problem (although a slower rise in the 2010 models) will effect models already out in the field or on the production line. And that the newer builds will have a fix. I think I read this within the last 5 pages of this thread.

No I don't think they'll hold a store credit for a year & if the place went under I'd be out my credit. In addition to the BL issues we all have I need a new set as it's defective. So at this point a normal working 13G would be better for me.

Not to mention I don't want to pull my POS DLP this thing replaced back out of the closet & use again.
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post #6496 of 10800
3/8/10 at 6:12am
posts deleted
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post #6497 of 10800
3/8/10 at 6:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

Latest and greatest data is up, see my signature.

I've also re-colored the data series to make them easier to read.

Lastly, I've created a chart like Batpig has that separates the 58 and 65 inchers out. This does illustrate that these panels start at a lower level and exhibit the same type of rise, based on the data we have so far.

Bdemers, I noticed that you show my initial reading that I posted. I believe that reading was in error since there may have been some ir from the calibration I was performing. The reading I took at 1750 hours was strictly for ftL and I believe it to be more accurate. Thx.
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post #6498 of 10800
3/8/10 at 6:34am
In addition to contacting THX, I wonder if Howard from "Help Me Howard" in NY would be any help with this issue.

Or really any local newscast, comsumer help person. Getting this to as many media sources is best.
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post #6499 of 10800
3/8/10 at 6:49am
I'm curious if my exceptionally high FtL is in direct result of having my Aboard replaced or not. I'm on hold again......
Wow 50 minutes on the phone and now a Technical supervisor will be calling my back by thursday.
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post #6500 of 10800
3/8/10 at 7:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post

Just curious. I've been following this thread for a while but haven't posted so far, because even though I'm a real enthusiast, I'm no expert on the matter. I tought I made a good deal when I decided to switch from my initial choice, which was a 46G10, to a 50V10 nut now, this whole controversy has got me understandably quite worried.

My set has about 500 hres so far and my blacks still seem good but I'm bound to suffer the same fate as everyone here I believe. It's really frustrating considering that over here the TV was selling for about 3000$. Had I have known, I would gladly have paid more for the Kuro. Regarding that, I have a few questions and please, excuse my ignorance if anything may appear obvious to some of you.

1- I just went to Pioneer's site and they are still advertising Kuro HDTVs. I know they're stopping production shortly, if they already haven't. Is it still possible to buy one?

2- I've seen the PDP-5020FD and PRO-111FD. Are both' black levels as good, and considering the fact that I'd only be willing to pay for the former, would its blacks and overall PQ still be much better than Panasonic's?

So. Anyone knows if it would still be possibe for me to find a Kuro somewhere? This may look like a joke out of despair but I'm quite serious. I'm ready to pay for the difference, provided that it's worth it. I just need some advice. Thanks again.
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post #6501 of 10800
3/8/10 at 7:54am
I fixed the legend to not cut-off the end of the list.

Also removed adrman's first reading which was believed to be in error.
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post #6502 of 10800
3/8/10 at 8:10am
What do you think about putting a candle next to the TV to have a reference. A candle has roughly 1 candela of luminosity (according to wikipedia).
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post #6503 of 10800
3/8/10 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post

So. Anyone knows if it would still be possibe for me to find a Kuro somewhere? This may look like a joke out of despair but I'm quite serious. I'm ready to pay for the difference, provided that it's worth it. I just need some advice. Thanks again.

best buy philadelphia has pro-151, 101 and 6020 stilll.. no 500-600m's. checked already.. PM me if you want location or if you even close to that area.
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post #6504 of 10800
3/8/10 at 9:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

While I'm compiling an update to the rising MLL chart, I'm skipping the graphing of data from meters that aren't accurate at these low levels (i1 Pro, Spyder 2/3)

Does anyone have a qualified opinion on whether the DTP-94 is accurate enough at these levels to be included in the data?

How is it determined that the i1 Pro is not accurate enough to read MLL data from a plasma? I don't understand how a higher quality, far more expensive meter is less accurate than a $175 model? I use this meter every day for calibrating computer displays and high-end proofing printers.

I have other meters... but when I attempt a reading using my i1 Display 2 on a 0IRE, HCFR reports "No data from meter" I can run grayscale and all the other tests fine, but when attempting a free read on 0IRE, this is what I get. Any idea why?
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post #6505 of 10800
3/8/10 at 9:33am
According to the Spectracal web-site (CalMAN) the i1 cannot read these really low mll values that people are claiming that new Panasonics have.

Performance

http://www.spectracal.com/i1Display-2.html

Dynamic range
Black point: 0.05 cd/m2 (this is 0.0146 FL)
White point: up to 1,000 cd/m2


and the i1 Pro actually has less range

http://www.spectracal.com/eyeone-pro.html
Measurement range: 0.2 to 300 cd/m2 (0.2 = 0.058 FL)

There are those on this thread that claim that the i1 can go well below 0.014. If I measure my screen with it turned off I get a reading of 0.0. So it appears to read lower than specification.

But if the manufacturer says the limit is 0.014 then any reading below that is suspect. I also wonder if the "Pro" version only goes down to 0.058 are black levels below that really all that important?

Has anyone found out what the THX spec is for the black level?
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post #6506 of 10800
3/8/10 at 9:53am
Quote:


How is it determined that the i1 Pro is not accurate enough to read MLL data from a plasma?

it's a different design. the i1 Pro is extraordinarily accurate but only above certain light levels. as noted above even the official specs corroborate this relative to the i1 D2/LT and this has been demonstrated by pro calibrators on the Calibration forum.


Quote:


According to the Spectracal web-site (CalMAN) the i1 cannot read these really low mll values that people are claiming that new Panasonics have.

true according to the specs, but, as noted above, the accuracy of the i1 D2/LT has been demonstrated empirically at these low light levels to be nearly as accurate. It will not be accurate at measuring colors that low but for pure luminance measurements it is excellent.

Here is one post where Tom Huffman has demonstrated this accuracy at measuring luminance: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post17876947

It's not going to be gospel perfect but it is close enough and repeatable enough for the purposes of demonstrating the phenomenon.
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post #6507 of 10800
3/8/10 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan10 View Post

According to the Spectracal web-site (CalMAN) the i1 (D2/LT) cannot read these really low mll values that people are claiming that new Panasonics have.

Performance

http://www.spectracal.com/i1Display-2.html

Dynamic range
Black point: 0.05 cd/m2 (this is 0.0146 FL)

That number is way higher than I remember seeing. A quick google search shows this:

http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25

X-Rite i1 Display 2/LT Device Specifications
...
Measurement range: Luminance: Black point:

0.02cd/m2 And I thought Tom Huffman or someone showed that the accuracy at these levels is +-0.002 ftL or so. D-nice also mentioned it recently.

Quote:


There are those on this thread that claim that the i1 (pro) can go well below 0.014.

If there were, I must have missed the posts because I haven't seen anyone claiming such.

Quote:


I also wonder if the "Pro" version only goes down to 0.058 are black levels below that really all that important?

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post #6508 of 10800
3/8/10 at 10:32am
I'm not an expert or even a novice with the meters.

I've just tried to follow the advice of the well-respected members here.

If there's legitimate controversy over the accuracy of the i1Pro measurements, it's easy to re-include them. (they're still in the data set, just not graphed right now)
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post #6509 of 10800
3/8/10 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

I'm not an expert or even a novice with the meters.

I've just tried to follow the advice of the well-respected members here.

If there's legitimate controversy over the accuracy of the i1Pro measurements, it's easy to re-include them. (they're still in the data set, just not graphed right now)

I understand. I'm trying to do the same :-)
I use these meters all the time but for a totally different purpose.
I'm trying to get a value for the chart using my i1D2 but get a "Can't read Sensor Data" error when attempting it...
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post #6510 of 10800
3/8/10 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

Also removed adrman's first reading which was believed to be in error.

Thanks. FWIW, I'll post an updated reading at around 2000 hours.
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