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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 23

post #661 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by battousai147 View Post

i called panasonic earlier today after reading your post, i to noticed this increase about two weeks ago, they had several alternatives for the problem, but one that actually worked for me. It was a complete reboot of the set, why this worked i can only guess, someone with much more knowledge of these sets could probably fill you in better.....to reset the set, power on the tv, hold the menu button on the remote and at the same time hold down the volume minus button on the tv, after about 5 seconds you will see a screen with information come up, at this point hold down the power button on the front of the set until it turns off, then unplug the main power for 30 seconds plug back up and it's like you unboxed it for the first time.

This will reset all the user menu settings back to default, and maybe even the service menu settings(this one i'm not sure about). After finishing the procedure, i poped in a bluray, and checked it out, the letter box bars above and below were noticably darker than what they were moments before. I don't know if this will help, and if it does no clue as to why it worked, but it might be worth the shot..........

This is many months after the above quote, but I just wanted to say that I tried this reset when my black levels doubled, and it worked.
post #662 of 11163
Thread Starter 
Hey guys, some new data. I got a 65S1 for the living room. Just took some measurements on it, currently has less than 20 hours use. I took these two readings back to back, pitch black environment, re-zeroed the meter in between. Both are in Custom mode with Brightness at 0. Point of interest is the "Y" value below, I just took all 11 grayscale measures of the 0 IRE pattern. Values are in cd/m^2. These roughly translate to ~0.006fL on the S1 and ~0.018 - 0.020fL on the G10. Obviously I'll keep you updated on what the S1 does as time goes on. The difference is quite striking. I'll try to duplicate the environment and settings as exacting as possible and see if I can get my crappy camera to give an accurate representation of it.

65S1 @ < 20 hours of use, 0.006fL


50G10 @ > 1000 hours of use, ~0.019fL

post #663 of 11163
Welll my 50G10 just did it yesterday. noticeable beyond what I ever could have expected. Wow.
post #664 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citivas View Post

Quoting reviews to prove black level superiority seems like a war of attrition – there are many reviews and they often come to different conclusions. More importantly most of them make these conclusions without actually offering the actual measurement, let alone providing the settings they used when they tested it or their methodology for testing. I would think real data would trump vague statements of opinion from writers.

As for the data differing, this has been true of Panasonic as well as Samsung. For the Samsung results, it is possible I have a set that is aberrant in black level by 3X the norm, but isn’t it also possible those sources didn’t achieve an optimal calibration? My set initially measured 0.02x fL before D-Nice calibrated it and changed the settings on my PS3 player. That seems like an interesting coincidence to me that my pre-calibration results were comparable to what a couple other reviewers noted.

Doubt it. D-Nice calibrated the Samsung at the HDTV shootout as well, but they didn't use a PS3. The PS3 is considerably more difficult to setup correctly if the calibrator doesn't know what he's doing because it's a video game console that can output multiple color spaces as well as different luminance/color ranges. D-Nice probably just had it setup incorrectly then corrected it. No doubt in my mind that the standalone player that was used at the shootout was setup correctly. If the player is setup correctly, the TV's black level can only get so dark.
post #665 of 11163
I spoke with the local tech the other day and asked about any updates. First off he said the THX fix is done and should hit the net any day now, and second he confirmed that some of the top techs in Japan are working on the black level issue becasue they keep getting more and more complaints about it. So there is hope for those of us with the black level problems.
post #666 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I spoke with the local tech the other day and asked about any updates. First off he said the THX fix is done and should hit the net any day now, and second he confirmed that some of the top techs in Japan are working on the black level issue becasue they keep getting more and more complaints about it. So there is hope for those of us with the black level problems.

Good to hear. Next, should be there uneven AR coating.
post #667 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris100 View Post

Good to hear. Next, should be there uneven AR coating.

That was my initial reason for starting my claim with them, and now it seems that they are ignoring it. I'll bring it up again next time I talk to him. (so many problems with these G10s that I can't remember them all)
post #668 of 11163
I just had my panel replaced for the black elevation problem, the panel swap fixed the problem. The difference was very noticeable to the naked eye. The tech was amazed by the difference. Unfortunately, i didn't take any before pictures so i can't prove the difference but at least i can say that i am happy now. (For the time being until the black level rises again)

I think that it definitely has something to do with the panel aging. I will post back after i have a few more hours on the new panel.
post #669 of 11163
Good to hear about the THX fix, my black levels are still fine for now and I've been using it since July. I don't know if they have been steadily rising overtime but I definitely don't have that obvious jump people are noticing.

Orta, have you compared the 65S1 with your G10 next to each other? How big of a difference in the black levels can you notice with just your eyes? 0.020 ft/l is what the X1 should have and I saw a 42X1 at a friends house and it looked pretty good in a dim setting!
post #670 of 11163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by exbagboy View Post

Good to hear about the THX fix, my black levels are still fine for now and I've been using it since July. I don't know if they have been steadily rising overtime but I definitely don't have that obvious jump people are noticing.

Orta, have you compared the 65S1 with your G10 next to each other? How big of a difference in the black levels can you notice with just your eyes? 0.020 ft/l is what the X1 should have and I saw a 42X1 at a friends house and it looked pretty good in a dim setting!

Well, I use the G10 exclusively in a pitch dark room--for hours every day--so I'm intimately familiar with what it looks like. To me, the S1 is a night and day improvement, it looks like an entirely new generation of tech by comparison. That said, I could definitely understand if someone wasn't a very critical viewer, or doesn't have a blacked out room--they would likely never be able to tell the difference or notice this amount of change. The S1 definitely still glows (in total darkness), and subjectively, that makes it extremely difficult to quantify MLL's.
post #671 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Well, I use the G10 exclusively in a pitch dark room--for hours every day--so I'm intimately familiar with what it looks like. To me, the S1 is a night and day improvement, it looks like an entirely new generation of tech by comparison. That said, I could definitely understand if someone wasn't a very critical viewer, or doesn't have a blacked out room--they would likely never be able to tell the difference or notice this amount of change. The S1 definitely still glows (in total darkness), and subjectively, that makes it extremely difficult to quantify MLL's.

I wonder if the S1 will have a similar black level jump or not? I'm considering either getting a 65s1 or a 52 inch LCD to replace my 54G10. How strong is the ABL on the 65s1? I have noticed that the ABL is a little potent on my 54g10 and the contrast has to be lowered to 45 on custom mode to keep it from kicking in on all content (54 with most content) THX at 70 has a very mild ABL, you have to really look for it.

I just want a set with decent uniformity, decent blacks, a picture that doesn't change radically in bright or dim lighting, and no auto adjusting picture, which seems to be to much to ask for these days.
post #672 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlivesay View Post

This is many months after the above quote, but I just wanted to say that I tried this reset when my black levels doubled, and it worked.

I just tried this and it made no difference at all.
post #673 of 11163
What does ABL refer to?
post #674 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by exbagboy View Post

What does ABL refer to?

Auto Brightness Limiter, it is on every plasma ever produced in one form or another. It keeps the plasma from getting too bright and overloading the power supply.
post #675 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I spoke with the local tech the other day and asked about any updates. First off he said the THX fix is done and should hit the net any day now, and second he confirmed that some of the top techs in Japan are working on the black level issue becasue they keep getting more and more complaints about it. So there is hope for those of us with the black level problems.

someone here got its panel replaced and the blacks were back to normal. if only the panel was replaced and the boards were kept that means its a panel problem NOT software related.
post #676 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

someone here got its panel replaced and the blacks were back to normal. if only the panel was replaced and the boards were kept that means its a panel problem NOT software related.

Then there are those of us who have had our black levels go back to normal with a software reset. Then there are those of us who have had our blacks fixed with a replaced A board. (I fall into the second group)

My tech has also confirmed that the board swap works and has done it on several units. Odds are swapping the panel causes a similar reset to swapping the A board.
post #677 of 11163
Is this a known problem for the G15 as well? My initial thoughts are that it would be or was this corrected for the G15 series?
post #678 of 11163
yes, it apply on a G15 (look a my pics) some pages ago.

Btw, theyve tried to change de board on my set and guess what.... no change !
post #679 of 11163
i am not sure that everyone here is experiencing the same issue because its impossible for some to fix the issue with a reset or a-board replacement and others not. The reset some people did here doesn't affect the SM ....only the user menu, and doesn't reset the bios either
post #680 of 11163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

i am not sure that everyone here is experiencing the same issue because its impossible for some to fix the issue with a reset or a-board replacement and others not. The reset some people did here doesn't affect the SM ....only the user menu, and doesn't reset the bios either

Yea, that is very odd, especially the board replacements. Personally, I don't have a lot of confidence in the software reset reports because, if I'm not mistaken, most of the picture modes default to a 100 Contrast setting. That can create a pretty powerful illusion if you've been accustomed to a lower setting. On the other hand, it could very well be doing something, I dunno. I guess the A-boards could be having a similar effect, but surely those that went that far had already done the software reset--and likely multiple times.
post #681 of 11163
hell, at least some on here are actually getting a tech to do something about it. The guy they sent me looked at it, reset it and said it was just how the set is, even called panny to check on it but nothing.
post #682 of 11163
Man, was really looking at picking up the 46" G10 but after reading this thread I'm having second thoughts. Is this expected to happen on every unit and some are just not noticing it?
post #683 of 11163
Definitely not happy with my PZ80/X1 black levels on my G10.

I found a Pioneer Kuro KRP-500M for 1800$, a 9th generation kuro.
Do you guys know much about this Pio? I know it's a monitor so it doesn't come with speakers or stand I think, but not a bad price!

Also, has anyone tried not using their G10 for a day or so and seen the black levels then? I am gonna try it and see!
post #684 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by exbagboy View Post

Definitely not happy with my PZ80/X1 black levels on my G10.

I found a Pioneer Kuro KRP-500M for 1800$, a 9th generation kuro.
Do you guys know much about this Pio? I know it's a monitor so it doesn't come with speakers or stand I think, but not a bad price!

Also, has anyone tried not using their G10 for a day or so and seen the black levels then? I am gonna try it and see!

I just bought a 500m. I also own a p50g10, which I have had since June 09. For a few days I had both TVs in the same room... with the same signal, my out-of-the-box 500m had, to my eyes, much deeper blacks than the g10 (the g10 was pro-calibrated in custom mode). The 500m is a really cool TV, and the blacks really make a difference, especially on starfields/spaceship scenes and letterbox bars. The G10 is a nice TV too, certainly more user-friendly than the 500m (the g10 has speakers and more inputs), but it got booted to the bedroom. The 500m is our home-theater set now. (By the way, I hear a lot of anecdotes about buzzing in pioneers: my pioneer and panny both buzz, kind of like fluorescent bulbs, and on both sets the buzzing varies depending on the signal. The buzzing is not a problem for me on either TV).
post #685 of 11163
GOOD NEWS GUYS !!!! They are changing my set !!!

Im not to sure witch model to take... another G15 or a V10 ?....
post #686 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by exbagboy View Post

I found a Pioneer Kuro KRP-500M for 1800$, a 9th generation kuro.
Do you guys know much about this Pio? I know it's a monitor so it doesn't come with speakers or stand I think, but not a bad price!

Not to turn this into a Pio vs Panny thread (both are excellent), but the 500M is considered by many to be one of (if not) the finest 50" plasma currently available. I am not aware of any set that currently offers deeper blacks than the 500M. The Pioneer Kuros are known for their industry leading black levels and this set is no exception. Here is the dedicated thread on the 500M/600M:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1162100
post #687 of 11163
I'm holding off a 58s1 purchase til the dust settles on this problem.

You would think blacks would grow darker over time ... not brighter ... as the panel's brightness naturally decreases... this problem is counter intuitive to me ...

btw - does this gen of panny have any kind of ambient light sensing feature that dynamically adjusts the pic ... due to changing light in the room ?

If so, maybe this sensor fails after a certain time period ... and changes the black as a side effect ??

Just thinking out loud ...

jls.
post #688 of 11163
Some 11G (2008) Panasonic owners have experienced very similar rises. Whether or not this is just simply a case of a few faulty panels remains to be seen. Hopefully Orta's newly purchased S1 will give us more information. I mean, it would be pretty unlikely for two 12G panels purchased by the same individual to have the same issue if this were an isolated case. And hopefully others (preferably with the proper equipment to measure) can give their input on this situation.

If this is some sort of hardware issue that does not affect all Panasonic PDP owners, then I think that it's still big enough of an issue that they should look into it and address it regardless.
post #689 of 11163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Some 11G (2008) Panasonic owners have experienced very similar rises. Whether or not this is just simply a case of a few faulty panels remains to be seen. Hopefully Orta's newly purchased S1 will give us more information. I mean, it would be pretty unlikely for two 12G panels purchased by the same individual to have the same issue if this were an isolated case. And hopefully others (preferably with the proper equipment to measure) can give their input on this situation.

If this is some sort of hardware issue that does not affect all Panasonic PDP owners, then I think that it's still big enough of an issue that they should look into it and address it regardless.

Yep, that S1's going to tell a lot. It's an October build, so it's pretty far removed from the April 50G10. I'm also not going to enter the SM until it either elevates, or I estimate it's pushing 1000 hours.
post #690 of 11163
Hey Orta,

Is the "build date" written on a sticker label on the set ??

jls
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