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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 222

post #6631 of 10800
3/9/10 at 10:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrist View Post

Thanks!

I read this in Chad B's review (it was added as an update):


Pretty impressive! I'm guessing there are other issues with the LH90 thats keeping it from being the holy grail of blacklevels.

Try watching any LED off axis, even slightly and those blacks turn lighter.
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post #6632 of 10800
3/9/10 at 10:59pm
Not the Toshiba SV670U. I watched the opening scene of the new star trek off axis-no problems at all.
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post #6633 of 10800
3/10/10 at 4:46am
I received a reply from THX:

"Thanks for the detailed information. We are sorry to hear that you are experiencing these issues with your TV. I'll send this along to our engineering team and follow-up with you if we have more questions."
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post #6634 of 10800
3/10/10 at 6:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnycopy View Post

Try watching any LED off axis, even slightly and those blacks turn lighter.


Yeah that's what i'm afraid of, in moving from Plasmas which I'm used to.

I don't mind a little bit of change when moving off axis, but i don't want it to be drastic.


I wish i could see it in store somewhere, even if im dealing with store lighting. But i haven't seen it anywhere in Canada. Best Buy has it but doesn't seem to be available in store, online only.
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post #6635 of 10800
3/10/10 at 6:37am
I think this is on-topic, since we're discussing dealing with black levels: I was looking at the bias lighting from CinemaQuest:

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm#Standard

Is anyone here familiar with bias lighting? They talk about the need for a "neutral" wall to bounce the light off of - my problem is that the wall behind my TV is a fairly dark red. The instructions from that site implies that will mess up the effect. Anyone here with experience with good bias lighting that can comment on using it with a deep colored wall?
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post #6636 of 10800
3/10/10 at 6:39am
I just replied to THX's request for more information. So, FWIW, whether or not you are experiencing the black level changes-hasn't happened to me yet, I think that it is a very good idea (as others have also suggested) that you all write to THX. You could tell them about your yellow/green experience (if you had one) and how upset you are that within a relatively short period of time you expect your PQ-across ALL viewing modes, to be significantly degraded by Panasonic's planned rise in black level. And, when this happens, THX mode will no longer have its intended PQ. Given the latter, THX should either push Panasonic to fix the black level rising problem, or withdraw your THX certification. Not doing either will most definitely reduce your credibility among the TV enthusiast world.
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post #6637 of 10800
3/10/10 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

I think this is on-topic, since we're discussing dealing with black levels: I was looking at the bias lighting from CinemaQuest:

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm#Standard

Is anyone here familiar with bias lighting? They talk about the need for a "neutral" wall to bounce the light off of - my problem is that the wall behind my TV is a fairly dark red. The instructions from that site implies that will mess up the effect. Anyone here with experience with good bias lighting that can comment on using it with a deep colored wall?

I've used the ideallume standard now with 2 different TVs. They are nice and reduce eye strain. Don't let the neutral thing discourage you from buying. The difference is negligible. I think the most important factor is providing bias lighting of some kind with the proper color temp bulbs.

You can argue until your blue in the face about the effect of neutral colored walls, etc...
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post #6638 of 10800
3/10/10 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sethhobrin View Post

I've used the ideallume standard now with 2 different TVs. They are nice and reduce eye strain. Don't let the neutral thing discourage you from buying. The difference is negligible. I think the most important factor is providing bias lighting of some kind with the proper color temp bulbs.

You can argue until your blue in the face about the effect of neutral colored walls, etc...

But is the blue in my face the proper CIE blue?

Thanks, for about $50 the standard looks like a good deal. I'll try it out. Does it matter where behind the TV it is mounted? My 54 inch Panny is on a desk about a foot in front of the wall behind it.
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post #6639 of 10800
3/10/10 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

But is the blue in my face the proper CIE blue?

Thanks, for about $50 the standard looks like a good deal. I'll try it out. Does it matter where behind the TV it is mounted? My 54 inch Panny is on a desk about a foot in front of the wall behind it.

It's not the tidiest look, but instead of paying the $50, i just went to the hardware store and picked up cheap plug-in lights (they use T8 Floruescent 6500k lights) for 10 bucks each. Picked up 3.


Oh but i noticed your tv is mounted so space may be an issue, as these are more bulky then the ideallumes.
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post #6640 of 10800
3/10/10 at 7:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

I received a reply from THX:

"Thanks for the detailed information. We are sorry to hear that you are experiencing these issues with your TV. I'll send this along to our engineering team and follow-up with you if we have more questions."

The exact response I got as well. Lets ALL continue to voice our concerns. Remember we need to keep this issue alive and hit Panny from all angles. They should not be able to get away with selling a proported higher quality plamsa product that basically degrades to mediocre levels within a couple of months.
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post #6641 of 10800
3/10/10 at 8:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The Kuro is destined to be surpassed, not equaled, in black levels next year... if the roadmap holds up.


Will that be for all models, in 2011, or just the 3D units?
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post #6642 of 10800
3/10/10 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Will that be for all models, in 2011, or just the 3D units?

Thats all the information I can provide right now
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post #6643 of 10800
3/10/10 at 9:18am
I've searched and search, and although a few people besides myself have suggested it, there seems to be no formal petition to rally support for some form of redress by Panasonic on this issue?

I have been reading this post on and off, but if someone who has enough knowledge to create a statement of facts about just what was advertised, how the product performs (e.g., black level contrast dropped 3x? after X hours), and what Panasonic has responded with officially, and then make a call for support by the public for (1) an FTC / state by state consumer protection agency investigations into false advertising complaints against Panasonic, and (2) a boycott of any other Panasonic products, that would be REALLY great.

When this thread starts to become a "hint" dropping ground about how great the next products are going to be, it cuts away the only venue that people with this problem have to connect on for trying to figure out how solutions/actions we can take.
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post #6644 of 10800
3/10/10 at 9:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harywood View Post

How far away from the screen is the meter?

It's a flat panel display, so the meter is rested right on the screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

What is on the screen just before you "Skip to the 0 IRE pattern"? Or do you mean that the dvd is paused on 0% (not IRE) before you 'skip' to it?

Larry

Sorry, Larry. I shouldn't have used the words "skip to."

I will already have the PS3 paused on the 0% pattern while the Directv content is playing. Then when I'm ready to take the reading, I simply switch inputs to the PS3.

So basically full screen TV broadcast is on screen right before I switch to the 0% pattern for the reading.
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post #6645 of 10800
3/10/10 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Thats all the information I can provide right now

Yeah, for me this fiasco has made me decide to never purchase another Panasonic TV, unless they change the management in charge of the TV section, and I'd never buy the 2010 Pannys anyway since they have the same flawed fundamental design as the 2009s. And you really just don't know (this is a great example) what flaws a TV will have (buzzing, elevating black levels, etc.) until a model has been on the market at least six months or more.

So for me, it will be 2011 before I shop again. Sounds like some interesting technology will be out year after next.
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post #6646 of 10800
3/10/10 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edeangel View Post

I've searched and search, and although a few people besides myself have suggested it, there seems to be no formal petition to rally support for some form of redress by Panasonic on this issue?

I have been reading this post on and off, but if someone who has enough knowledge to create a statement of facts about just what was advertised, how the product performs (e.g., black level contrast dropped 3x? after X hours), and what Panasonic has responded with officially, and then make a call for support by the public for (1) an FTC / state by state consumer protection agency investigations into false advertising complaints against Panasonic, and (2) a boycott of any other Panasonic products, that would be REALLY great.

I think the only effective approach to getting Panasonic to put out a fix for the 2009s - if a fix is do-able - is a really heavy duty boycott. One that gets a lot of publicity both in the electronics community as well as the mainstream press (e.g. USA Today.) Panasonic isn't going to be afraid of a class action suit because it will be impossible to prove to a neutral and likely electronics un-savvy judge that Panasonic broke any promises: nowhere do they promise specific MLL levels, they can claim that, yeah, it may not be the best approach, but its the best compromise we could come up with at the time for this and that.

The only thing that will cause Panasonic management to decide to spend the money to develop and issue a fix is if they feel they will lose more money by NOT issuing a fix than it will cost them to spend the money to develop and distribute the fix (on a model that is "last year's model.")

They are no doubt assuming that the 2010s are out now, the 2009s don't matter because they don't need to sell any more of those, and the focus will be on the 2010s. Since the average consumer (the 99% who don't read AVS) doesn't even know about this issue they feel it is safe to just let the issue die out.

But - if there was a huge stink and an organized boycott that got the attention of places like USA Today, etc. I'm betting they would act. Marketing would force them to. It would be a HUGE fiasco for them, in a market that is so competitive. All Joe Public has to hear, as he tries to decide between the Samsung, LG, Sharp, Vizio, etc. is that there's some big boycott of Panasonic because of a quality issue that caused a lot of customers to feel screwed and he'll pick the Samsung or the LG, etc.

Ya gotta hit them in their financials to have any hope of getting their attention.
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post #6647 of 10800
3/10/10 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrist View Post

It's not the tidiest look, but instead of paying the $50, i just went to the hardware store and picked up cheap plug-in lights (they use T8 Floruescent 6500k lights) for 10 bucks each. Picked up 3.


Oh but i noticed your tv is mounted so space may be an issue, as these are more bulky then the ideallumes.

Oh, no, it's not mounted. Just sitting on a dresser type cabinet that it about a foot or so from the wall behind it.

Is the idea to have the light reflecting off the entire back wall, or does it need to be coming from midway up the TV, etc? I'd love to see a picture of how this should look.
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post #6648 of 10800
3/10/10 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Oh, no, it's not mounted. Just sitting on a dresser type cabinet that it about a foot or so from the wall behind it.

Is the idea to have the light reflecting off the entire back wall, or does it need to be coming from midway up the TV, etc? I'd love to see a picture of how this should look.



I actually haven't done it either yet. I've just been reading up on it, and going to see hwo it looks when i get my new tv (which im getting when i move in a few months)..

Cinemaquest has some user install pics (before and after):

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post #6649 of 10800
3/10/10 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by luciano1213 View Post

So what are your plans for the future? What will you buy to replace the Panasonic? I really don't know what is the best option right now?

The plan for the current panny is hopefully i can either get it fixed or replaced. If that doesn't happen the tv will go downstairs where I do NO tv viewing and my wife will be the only one watching it. Of course that will be in 2 years or so until there is something on the market that is worth buying.
For now I will have to live with it I guess.
I will not be first to jump in and get another new model. I got mine as soon as they were available. I will learn first to wait towards the end of the model year and get all the facts from here on the forums first.
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post #6650 of 10800
3/10/10 at 10:23am
As far as I am concerned, unless you can afford and find a Kuro, at the moment, there is nothing significantly better than the Panny plasmas.

I just got back from my local Costco and asked if they could get anymore Kuro 6020's from any other nearby stores. After the sales guy looked in the computer, I was told it showed none available in the midwest area!

I will wait a couple of years as well for something better. In the meantime, we can only hope for a fix
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post #6651 of 10800
3/10/10 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Oh, no, it's not mounted. Just sitting on a dresser type cabinet that it about a foot or so from the wall behind it.

Is the idea to have the light reflecting off the entire back wall, or does it need to be coming from midway up the TV, etc? I'd love to see a picture of how this should look.

Yes light reflecting off back wall.
I initially installed mine in the middle of my V10 reflecting on to the back wall but just last night the adhessive on the velcro let go so I'm going to mount it using zip ties instead. It may actually work better for me if I mount it higher on the TV closer to the top because after calibrating it using the rotating mechanical baffle tube & the DVE test pattern in Title 12, Chapter 16, labeled Ambient Light Reference, the light was brighter at the bottom than at the top because of the position of the baffle tube. If you have dark color walls behind your display you might want to consider the Ideal-Lume Panelight which comes with 2 linkable bias lights.

Quote:


The Ideal-Lume Standard model is for TVs and monitors that are not mounted on a wall. A single light has proven sufficient for TVs as large as 73" diagonal, if the wall color behind it is white or very nearly white. Darker wall colors may require a second light, especially larger sized TVs.

The Ideal-Lume Panelight model is for wall mounted flat panel TVs. Such TVs are so close to the wall that not enough space is provided for unobstructed distribution of the illumination on the wall behind and around the screen. More than the included two light fixtures may be necessary for wall mounted panels that are 60 inches diagonal or more. Additional lights may also be required for unusually dark wall colors. This product uses the same fixture and lamp as the Standard model.
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post #6652 of 10800
3/10/10 at 11:09am
My i1 LT just came in today.

Has anyone used the Spears & Munsil High Definition Benchmark blu-ray to calibrate?
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post #6653 of 10800
3/10/10 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO1 View Post

Yes light reflecting off back wall.
I initially installed mine in the middle of my V10 reflecting on to the back wall but just last night the adhessive on the velcro let go so I'm going to mount it using zip ties instead. It may actually work better for me if I mount it higher on the TV closer to the top because after calibrating it using the rotating mechanical baffle tube & the DVE test pattern in Title 12, Chapter 16, labeled Ambient Light Reference, the light was brighter at the bottom than at the top because of the position of the baffle tube. If you have dark color walls behind your display you might want to consider the Ideal-Lume Panelight which comes with 2 linkable bias lights.

I am running the ideallume standard with a 65" V10 and it is just fine. I don't think the double lights is necessary. there really is no wrong way to do this. do it whatever ways looks best to YOUR eyes.
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post #6654 of 10800
3/10/10 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

As far as I am concerned, unless you can afford and find a Kuro, at the moment, there is nothing significantly better than the Panny plasmas.

I just got back from my local Costco and asked if they could get anymore Kuro 6020's from any other nearby stores. After the sales guy looked in the computer, I was told it showed none available in the midwest area!

I will wait a couple of years as well for something better. In the meantime, we can only hope for a fix

I'd get a Samsung 650/850 and keep returning it until I got a non buzzer. It's black levels are as good or better than Panasonic after the MLL rise and they have a full CMS which allows better color accuracy than any of the Panasonic models. The LG PS60 at this point would also be a better option than any of the Panasonic models after the MLL rise and if memory serves me correctly it too has a complete CMS.
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post #6655 of 10800
3/10/10 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

I think the only effective approach to getting Panasonic to put out a fix for the 2009s - if a fix is do-able - is a really heavy duty boycott. One that gets a lot of publicity both in the electronics community as well as the mainstream press (e.g. USA Today.) Panasonic isn't going to be afraid of a class action suit because it will be impossible to prove to a neutral and likely electronics un-savvy judge that Panasonic broke any promises: nowhere do they promise specific MLL levels, they can claim that, yeah, it may not be the best approach, but its the best compromise we could come up with at the time for this and that.

The only thing that will cause Panasonic management to decide to spend the money to develop and issue a fix is if they feel they will lose more money by NOT issuing a fix than it will cost them to spend the money to develop and distribute the fix (on a model that is "last year's model.")

They are no doubt assuming that the 2010s are out now, the 2009s don't matter because they don't need to sell any more of those, and the focus will be on the 2010s. Since the average consumer (the 99% who don't read AVS) doesn't even know about this issue they feel it is safe to just let the issue die out.

But - if there was a huge stink and an organized boycott that got the attention of places like USA Today, etc. I'm betting they would act. Marketing would force them to. It would be a HUGE fiasco for them, in a market that is so competitive. All Joe Public has to hear, as he tries to decide between the Samsung, LG, Sharp, Vizio, etc. is that there's some big boycott of Panasonic because of a quality issue that caused a lot of customers to feel screwed and he'll pick the Samsung or the LG, etc.

Ya gotta hit them in their financials to have any hope of getting their attention.

I agree completely. The bottom line is the only thing Panasonic apparently understands - certainly not customer service or loyalty to paying customers.

That being said, I am a senior spec writer for one of the largest engineering and consulting firms in North America. As of this morning, I have removed Panasonic as an approved product supplier for commercial and industrial projects. Their product data sheets can no longer be trusted to report actual product performance in light of the rising MLL issue.

Perhaps Panasonic will react differently when their system integrators and product partners start asking them the tough questions.
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post #6656 of 10800
3/10/10 at 11:30am
I'm all for a fix myself, but has anyone considered that a "fix" may compromise their claim of 100,000 hours until half-brightness?

I thought the voltage increments were there to extend the overall performance and life of the panel. I wouldn't care if it decreased it myself being I'll probably have a new TV way before this one reaches 100,000 hours.

I just think it was bad engineering overall and we have to eat it until something better comes along.
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post #6657 of 10800
3/10/10 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harywood View Post

I agree completely. The bottom line is the only thing Panasonic apparently understands - certainly not customer service or loyalty to paying customers.

That being said, I am a senior spec writer for one of the largest engineering and consulting firms in North America. As of this morning, I have removed Panasonic as an approved product supplier for commercial and industrial projects. Their product data sheets can no longer be trusted to report actual product performance in light of the rising MLL issue.

Perhaps Panasonic will react differently when their system integrators and product partners start asking them the tough questions.

You should send an email to panny stating that. The more people that do this, the more they will thinking about fixing the issue and stop ignoring it.
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post #6658 of 10800
3/10/10 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harywood View Post

I agree completely. The bottom line is the only thing Panasonic apparently understands - certainly not customer service or loyalty to paying customers.

That being said, I am a senior spec writer for one of the largest engineering and consulting firms in North America. As of this morning, I have removed Panasonic as an approved product supplier for commercial and industrial projects. Their product data sheets can no longer be trusted to report actual product performance in light of the rising MLL issue.

Perhaps Panasonic will react differently when their system integrators and product partners start asking them the tough questions.


so all your other products stay to spec throughout their life ?

also - there is no confirmation that Panasonic Pro products have this problem - and you wouldn't use commercial grade panels for a commercial or industrial product - they're not for that purpose.
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post #6659 of 10800
3/10/10 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sethhobrin View Post

I am running the ideallume standard with a 65" V10 and it is just fine. I don't think the double lights is necessary. there really is no wrong way to do this. do it whatever ways looks best to YOUR eyes.

Two bias lights maybe necessary if you have dark colored walls. When I was over at jefflackey's visiting his wife I noticed that the wall behind his TV was dark red. Just a joke, he mentioned that it was dark red on pg 223.
Wall mounted displays are so close to the wall that not enough space is provided for unobstructed distribution of the illumination on the wall behind and around the screen. jefflackey's TV is not wall mounted but he did say that it was only about a ft from the wall so 2 bias lights may also be required in this situation. The Ideal-Lume Panelight is basically 2 Ideal-Lume Standards with a linking cable which would cost you $119.90 + $3.95 for linking cable compared to $89.95 for an Ideal-Lume Panelight. If I had a second TV and wasn't sure that's the route I'd go and if I only needed one I'd use the second one on the other TV...win win!
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post #6660 of 10800
3/10/10 at 11:44am
Could someone please enlighten me (no pun intended) whether this is confirmed to occur on the 2008 models? I have a TH-50PZ800 with around 1000 hours on it (purchased around Dec 31, 2008, up here in Canada), and I could swear over the past several months that the blacks look lighter than they used to, although I have no technical measurements from when new and now, only looking at it in a dark room, watching BSG blurays over the past few months, things just look too bright/grey. After noticing this I looked critically at a bunch of other stuff with dark scenes too thinking maybe the BSG discs were badly mastered, but, everything looks more grey now, and not as deep and dark as I recall it looking when the set was brand new (yes, subjective I know, please don't flame me for that).

So I did some googling, and ended up here. After reading a bunch of this thread, I sent a message complaining about suddenly noticed poor black levels and contrast to Panasonic Canada, and received the following response:

Code:
Thank you for your e-mail.  Please be advised that we have not had any reports 
of black levels increasing on our 2008 models.  We recommend that you do a hard 
reset of your TV, which will put the picture settings back to the factory defaults.  
To do a hard reset on your TV: turn the TV on, press and hold both the Volume 
Down on the front of the TV (not the remote) and Menu on the remote - 
simultaneously - until you see Self Check on your TV display.  If you do not see 
Self Check then let go of the buttons and try it again.  The TV is not reset until 
Self Check is displayed.  Once displayed, unplug the power, plug it back, do the 
One-Time Set-up again.
So, I'd like to know now if I'm imagining it, or if Panasonic is outright lying to me.

Thanks
The REAL Joe
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