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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 223

post #6661 of 10800
3/10/10 at 11:53am
yes, 2008 models are affected to as far as we know. Tom Huffman first noted the problem on an 85U and several others have contributed data from 11G (2008) models... see the data posted:

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post #6662 of 10800
3/10/10 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

so all your other products stay to spec throughout their life ?

also - there is no confirmation that Panasonic Pro products have this problem - and you wouldn't use commercial grade panels for a commercial or industrial product - they're not for that purpose.

Obviously, product performance will degrade after a reasonable amount of time in service. A 50% increase in MLL (0.0065 to 0.0098 according to D-Nice, for example) in 300 hours is not considered reasonable.

As for commercial/industrial products, I'm not just talking about plasmas. I'm talking about all products from security cameras to imaging.
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post #6663 of 10800
3/10/10 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

so all your other products stay to spec throughout their life ?

also - there is no confirmation that Panasonic Pro products have this problem - and you wouldn't use commercial grade panels for a commercial or industrial product - they're not for that purpose.

My guess is because of what this says about Panasonic as a company not which line of Panasonic products Harywood deals with. A lot of us paid big money for these TV's and in a few months their PQ was similiar to TV's that cost 1/3 to 1/4 the price. Panasonic decided it was more cost effective to screw the people complaining than to fix the issue so they call the MLL rise normal operation of the set which is BS. If you were Harywood would you approve a company that would stab you in the back to save a dollar if they could get away with it?
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post #6664 of 10800
3/10/10 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by therealjoeblow View Post


Thank you for your e-mail. Please be advised that we have not had any reports of black levels increasing on our 2008 models.


Tell there have been reports cause you just made one! What a bunch they are.
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post #6665 of 10800
3/10/10 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

Tell there have been reports cause you just made one! What a bunch they are.

There have also been reports of rising blacks on 2006 and 2007 models as well.
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post #6666 of 10800
3/10/10 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by therealjoeblow View Post

Could someone please enlighten me (no pun intended) whether this is confirmed to occur on the 2008 models? I have a TH-50PZ800 with around 1000 hours on it (purchased around Dec 31, 2008, up here in Canada), and I could swear over the past several months that the blacks look lighter than they used to, although I have no technical measurements from when new and now, only looking at it in a dark room, watching BSG blurays over the past few months, things just look too bright/grey. After noticing this I looked critically at a bunch of other stuff with dark scenes too thinking maybe the BSG discs were badly mastered, but, everything looks more grey now, and not as deep and dark as I recall it looking when the set was brand new (yes, subjective I know, please don't flame me for that).

So I did some googling, and ended up here. After reading a bunch of this thread, I sent a message complaining about suddenly noticed poor black levels and contrast to Panasonic Canada, and received the following response:

Code:
Thank you for your e-mail.  Please be advised that we have not had any reports 
of black levels increasing on our 2008 models.  We recommend that you do a hard 
reset of your TV, which will put the picture settings back to the factory defaults.  
To do a hard reset on your TV: turn the TV on, press and hold both the Volume 
Down on the front of the TV (not the remote) and Menu on the remote - 
simultaneously - until you see Self Check on your TV display.  If you do not see 
Self Check then let go of the buttons and try it again.  The TV is not reset until 
Self Check is displayed.  Once displayed, unplug the power, plug it back, do the 
One-Time Set-up again.
So, I'd like to know now if I'm imagining it, or if Panasonic is outright lying to me.

Thanks
The REAL Joe

I have two 11g panels in a different province with less than 300hrs on them but I won't have access to them until I go on vacation in August. Makes me not want to go on vacation because I'll go postal if these 2 plasmas rise while I'm supposed to be relaxing.
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post #6667 of 10800
3/10/10 at 1:02pm
I have a 50 V10 built in December (New Zealand model).

Noticed the other night that black seems to have elevated and I was expecting far more hours to pass before I'd see a change.
This is from approximately 120 hours. I am trying to determine if accessing the service mode will constitute voiding my warranty (keep in mind I'm not in the US) so clock times are estimated. I didn't note any changes in black level between day 1 and this -



And after I noticed a shift. Approximately 160 hours -



I've made swatches from the two shots by using the Average' blur in photoshop which makes it easier to see the levels side by side -



To see this change after so few hours is disappointing to say the least. Yes it was expected, but really it has robbed me of a fair grace-period to appreciate the TV at its very best. As the title of this thread says, it literally changes over night'.
To know that it will rise beyond what I see now is even more disturbing and I should expect it sooner rather than later.

To those suggesting that this is a problem only manifested in US units, Bah!

Poor form Panasonic.
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post #6668 of 10800
3/10/10 at 1:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harywood View Post

Obviously, product performance will degrade after a reasonable amount of time in service.

Exactly.
Just look at this thread about the much beloved Pioneer plasmas dying after just 2 years of use.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...764225&page=19
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post #6669 of 10800
3/10/10 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45rpm View Post

Exactly.
Just look at this thread about the much beloved Pioneer plasmas dying after just 2 years of use.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...764225&page=19

Let me get this straight, you are comparing a power supply failure (what the red light flash code means) to idle luminance (black)rising

Power supplies fail all the time on PDPs. This is common among all PDP manufacturers, including Pioneer. Idle black increases are completely different and exclusive to Panasonic. The owner of that 5080HD only needs to get the power supply replaced and his display will perform exacly how it did when he first pulled it out of the box. Can you say the same for idle black rising Panasonics?
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post #6670 of 10800
3/10/10 at 1:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO1 View Post

I have two 11g panels in a different province with less than 300hrs on them but I won't have access to them until I go on vacation in August. Makes me not want to go on vacation because I'll go postal if these 2 plasmas rise while I'm supposed to be relaxing.

Panasonic rep: Sir, if you are watching TV on your vacation, maybe you need to seriously rethink what it means to take a vacation. On the plus side, if you go somewhere that's bright and sunny most of the time, you'll hardly notice the change.

Thanks for using Panasonic.
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post #6671 of 10800
3/10/10 at 1:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO1 View Post

Wall mounted displays are so close to the wall that not enough space is provided for unobstructed distribution of the illumination on the wall behind and around the screen

Which Ideal-lume would you recommend for us wall mounted folk?
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post #6672 of 10800
3/10/10 at 1:26pm
"First they ignore you,
then they ridicule you,
then they fight you,
then you win. -Mahatma Gandhi."

Dramatization of situation
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post #6673 of 10800
3/10/10 at 2:30pm
We should ask Toyota to install accelerators or brakes on our 12g plasmas. That way we might get a recall or something
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post #6674 of 10800
3/10/10 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Which Ideal-lume would you recommend for us wall mounted folk?

The Ideal-Lume Panelight is designed for wall mounted displays.
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post #6675 of 10800
3/10/10 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO1 View Post

The Ideal-Lume Panelight is designed for wall mounted displays.

Danka
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post #6676 of 10800
3/10/10 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabigwaxy View Post

Panasonic rep: Sir, if you are watching TV on your vacation, maybe you need to seriously rethink what it means to take a vacation. On the plus side, if you go somewhere that's bright and sunny most of the time, you'll hardly notice the change.

Thanks for using Panasonic.

lol...so far that's a better response than I have received from Panasonic. BTW anytime I don't have to deal with pedophiles and murders I consider that a vacation.
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post #6677 of 10800
3/10/10 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post




And after I noticed a shift. Approximately 160 hours –



Are the settings on the camera the same between both photos? To me it looks like the 2nd pic has a bit more exposure or something. The LED lights are flaring a lot more on the 2nd pic.

Not to say the black level isn't rising. Just pointing out how photo's can be tricky unless you have a SLR and take all of the shots in a manual mode with the same settings both times.
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post #6678 of 10800
3/10/10 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Are the settings on the camera the same between both photos? To me it looks like the 2nd pic has a bit more exposure or something. The LED lights are flaring a lot more on the 2nd pic.

Not to say the black level isn't rising. Just pointing out how photo's can be tricky unless you have a SLR and take all of the shots in a manual mode.

Absolutely the same (check the EXIF data if you like). Its a pointless excercise if the camera settings and ambient conditions aren't a match.

The only way I can account for the difference is camera height/angle. Thats something I don't have as much control over, although I have used the same distance for both as my tripod is placed behind my couch.
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post #6679 of 10800
3/10/10 at 3:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

Absolutely the same (check the EXIF data if you like). Its a pointless excercise if the camera settings and ambient conditions aren't a match.

The only way I can account for the difference is camera height/angle. Thats something I don't have as much control over, although I have used the same distance for both as my tripod is placed behind my couch.

you're right - I was skepical about the photos too

but EXIFs do indeed show same settings

and then same post-processing settings in PS
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post #6680 of 10800
3/10/10 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

Absolutely the same (check the EXIF data if you like). Its a pointless excercise if the camera settings and ambient conditions aren't a match.

The only way I can account for the difference is camera height/angle. Thats something I don't have as much control over, although I have used the same distance for both as my tripod is placed behind my couch.

It could just be your directly in line with the LED light in the 2nd shot, some of those suckers are like mini spot lights.

Sorry your TV isn't look as good.
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post #6681 of 10800
3/10/10 at 3:16pm
Is there a chance these rises are executed based on an On/Off counter?

Is an On/Off count even present in the SM and could it be adjusted?
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post #6682 of 10800
3/10/10 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JC74 View Post

I'm all for a fix myself, but has anyone considered that a "fix" may compromise their claim of 100,000 hours until half-brightness?

I thought the voltage increments were there to extend the overall performance and life of the panel. I wouldn't care if it decreased it myself being I'll probably have a new TV way before this one reaches 100,000 hours.

I just think it was bad engineering overall and we have to eat it until something better comes along.

I would gladly swap original MLL /great picture (which is what I paid for Mr. Panasonic!) for 60,000 hours than have crappy blacks haunt me for 100,000.

I'm sure the vast majority of lucky owners would agree.
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post #6683 of 10800
3/10/10 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JC74 View Post

I'm all for a fix myself, but has anyone considered that a "fix" may compromise their claim of 100,000 hours until half-brightness?

I thought the voltage increments were there to extend the overall performance and life of the panel. I wouldn't care if it decreased it myself being I'll probably have a new TV way before this one reaches 100,000 hours.

I just think it was bad engineering overall and we have to eat it until something better comes along.


That is not the reason for the pre-programmed voltage change. Far from it. Xrox explained the reason in technical detail a few thousand posts ago.

Larry
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post #6684 of 10800
3/10/10 at 3:57pm
yes, I don't know how this false association between the voltage adjustment and the whole "plasmas get dimmer over time" thing keeps cropping up.... this whole thing has NOTHING to do with the "half life" of panel brightness.
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post #6685 of 10800
3/10/10 at 6:30pm
bottom line is voltage increase is necessary, higher mll is not!!
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post #6686 of 10800
3/10/10 at 7:32pm
In the interests of those with similar issues, I thought I would post a copy of an email I plan to send to Panasonic Concierge Canada in the morning. Though my main issue with the set is not black levels, it's certainly one I've experienced.
________________________

Further to my previous email, it's now been two weeks since I initially contacted you regarding my blown TV set, and it has yet to be repaired.

I'm assuming you weren't apprised of this since I expect there would have been some semblance of an apology for the poor response time and lack of customer support.

The Panasonic service rep was here early last week to repair the set but through no fault of his own was sent the wrong part. It seems that whoever was in charge of supplying the replacement part took it upon themselves to send an SC board instead of the power supply the service rep requested, as indicated by the four blinks from the set's trouble light.

The delivered part was installed, but of course did nothing to rectify the problem. A voltage check of the power supply confirmed it was the board that had failed. Since the service rep works in another city and does not stock parts for newer models, he won't be out this way till sometime this week. (not holding my breath..)

This is the second time in the three months I've owned the set that it required repair. Previously, it was in regards to a color decoder issue in the THX mode which was rectified somewhat by the software update. Now a faulty main board. What else can I expect? It makes one wonder how successful Panasonic will be with 3D displays when they can't seem to even get 2D right.

There is also a known issue with a series of Panasonic plasmas losing their dark black levels which I've noticed on my set as well. CNET, PC World, Home Theatre Mag, Yahoo Tech and HD Nation, among others, have all had reports on this ongoing problem.

Approximately a year ago, my $300 Panasonic DVD recorder crapped out less than a month after warranty expiration. Panasonic support wasn't interested and a repair estimate indicated it wasn't worth the expense to fix so into the refuse it went. I had written off purchasing another Panasonic product but took my chances with this set due to the appearance of the display and the (alleged) reports of customer satisfaction.

It appears now I should have stuck with my initial conviction and purchased from another manufacturer.

With this in mind, I am requesting an extension to Panasonic's one year service warranty for as many days as it takes to properly repair my set. If this goes on much longer, expect a bill for the HDTV/Digital broadcasts I'm being charged for but unable to view.

In regards to the Viera Concierge policy stating "48 Hour In-Home Priority Service", I suggest Panasonic change this misrepresentation to reflect the reality of their customer service.

___________________________
TC-P42G10-build date March 2009
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post #6687 of 10800
3/10/10 at 10:12pm
Has anyone had luck getting anywhere by using the "infinite black" argument?

I finally bit the bullet and decided to see if my infinite black function was working per the earlier described instructions....and it is not.

thanks.
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post #6688 of 10800
3/11/10 at 4:53am
Oh dear - I just found this thread and realise that my 30 day return period has just expired.

I'm not seeing the problem at present and the "infinite" black screeen on blank input is working (P42G15).

I'm not sure whethe or not I should try to return the set in any case - the thrust of this thread seems to suggest that, whatever Panasonic says about intentional design, the problem undermines the whole point of having a plasma television for many people.

The wording of the patent, remarkably, seems to suggest that the deep blacks on a new set are the temporary state. Far from deep blacks being the product of new panel technology they are the consequence of the dynamic voltage regulation which is the subject of the complaint. Previous panels have been over charged in their new state in order to compensate for life long degradation.
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post #6689 of 10800
3/11/10 at 4:58am
If you returned it what would you buy? There is nothing else in the price range that will yield better blacks. Even when elevated the Panasonic TVs yield the same or better blacks than anything else in the price rance.
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post #6690 of 10800
3/11/10 at 5:01am
Even better than other plasmas that are currently on the market?
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