Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 226

I set the brightness in all modes by reading 0%. I lower brightness all the way down and measure. Then I increase until fL increases. Then I lower brightness one tic at a time until I get back down to the minimum value.

Vivid reads lower significantly lower because on all black screens it goes into infinite black mode.

All you supplied was a string of numbers. No model numbers, no meters used, no settings, no hours on the panels, no sizes of the display, no nothing. How hard would it have been to hit copy and then paste so there was a hyperlink to each measurement that we could verify? How hard would it have been to record what the size and model of the panels were?

Your data is grossly incomplete, and therefore not useful for making any kind of definitive judgments.

Then the question becomes how hard would it have been for you to do it?

Likely one reason why there was such a great variation in the numbers LarryInRI posted for the Samsungs.

From as low as 0.011 ftL all the way up to 0.033 ftL

So...

A) Samsungs experience a threefold rise in their black levels just like the Pannys
B) Samsung PDP's are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get
C) 3M: Different meters, different methodologies, different models, are the source of the wide disparity
D) All of the above

Without further data to help clarify the context of the measurements, we can't take much of anything from just a stark listing of numbers, that we have no way of easily verifying.

Not hard at all, if I was a regular reader of the calibration forums and was culling the data over the months a little at a time. To try to sort through thousands of posts now, after the fact, would be tedious (and pointless), since I know what black levels look like on the Samsungs. I don't need any convincing.

My point is, if you are going to take the trouble to care enough about keeping track of MLL numbers on Samsungs over several months time, why do such an incomplete job of documenting the numbers? How hard would it have been to also keep track of the panel size, the models (i.e. 4/5/6/8 series), and the meters used?

The MLL is not a function of mode, other than Vivid (which no one uses) due to Vivid's infinite black mode with no picture displayed.

For you, it may be overblown. You may not be able to see the difference between the way your set looked when you first got it and the reduction in PQ, contrast, etc. after the MLL doubles or triples.

For many of us, it is a huge deal and not at all overblown. My wife, who is not a videophile and laughs at me with my meters and calibration, told me one day "what happened to the TV? Did I hit the wrong button on the remote?" because the picture suddenly looked so gray in the dark scenes in the movie she was watching. It happened overnight. Of course, I was able to see the difference immediately and could compare between my two G10s - the one I purchased first, with the same show playing as the other one, had significantly less "pop", less contrast, it just didn't look as good as the newer one. Side by side, the difference was obvious and depressing. Both sets were calibrated so it wasn't a matter of calibration or settings being different.

If you can't tell the difference on yours - I'm happy for you. Go enjoy your TV. But don't try to tell those of us who clearly have seen the degradation of our picture quality that the issue is "overblown."

How many hours would you say you have on your G15?

Thank you for a comparable reading on a Samsung.

So your crappy G15 that is not worth keeping and should cause Panasonic to go out of business is better than a brand spankin' new out of the box Samsung. Go figure.

The problem is that Panasonic knowingly mislead the public and the AV industry. We shelled out BIG$$$ based on specs and reviews which are only applicable for the first 1% - 2% of the panel's lifetime.

That's the problem.

You are right. I was wrong. This fiasco was started by Orta and D-Nice.

The real problem is the 12G Pannys have inferior styling, inferior colors, inferior processing, inferior picture/calibration controls, inferior AR filters, etc. compared to the 2009 Samsungs. That's the real problem here. The only thing that Panasonic could hang its hat on were the superior black levels, and slightly better motion than the Samsungs. The Panasonics do typically offer better IR resistance, but they also exhibit more phosphor lag than the Samsungs.

The other main objections to the Samsungs are reliability/build quality/customer service related concerns, and do not directly pertain to PQ, provided the display is functioning properly.

If the black levels end up about even with the Samsungs (give or take), the Panasonics clearly lose the PQ battle for 2009.

If the 2009 Panasonics had decent processing (not a soft, noisey, blurry pic), and fantastic colors (like the Samsungs), with sleek styling, then the slightly elevated black levels could be tolerated, since these displays are so cheap.

But why should people tolerate poor processing, off-kilter colors, a dim THX with a yellow/green cast, poor bright room performance due to weak AR filters, AND rising black levels?

^^^^You never stop do you

Well then don't trip over yourself in making the effort.

Believe me, I won't make any effort. Even prior to the elevated black levels on the Panasonics I preferred the pic on the Sammys. So why should I care if after the rise the Panny blacks remain slightly better, or end up even, or worse than the black levels on the Samsungs?

2010 ought to be a much more interesting contest, now that Panasonic finally offers some step-up models with a decent AR filter, and we're getting reports that the processing is much improved, and Panasonic is finally offering some advanced picture controls and calibration options in the user menus. A THX mode not limited to a dim 25-30 ftL also makes things much more interesting. Hey, Panasonic is even finally offering some swivel stands on certain of their models. They're looking more and more like Samsungs all the time! Who knows, maybe we will get lucky in 2011 and they will even throw in PIP on one of their models?

I don't want PIP. THX mode is fixed and is close to perfect at 32fL (Calibration was done), styling is fine, Processing was good, Greyscale is perfect. Gamma is flat at 2.19. If you have to much light output it causes the limiter to kick in. So when you get near 40fL the gamma gets messed on any plasma. It still looks pretty good, but THX knows this and so does Panny. Thats why default is low in THX. 2010 models do give extra THX output if you like it that way.

I not sure what else you could ask for, except a better MLL and a year to year improvement in all areas. More adjustment are only useful if they can make the picture better. Lots of Sammy adustments like their gamma control are horible.

I would say that Sammy may have slightly won the 2009 PDP race, but not cause they did anything so great. Panny just screwed up more.

Ohh so i would rather have extreme heat output, buzzing, broken cinema smooth, and crappy QC and build quality. You are just one those that fell for the looks and best buy "colors pop"... I would say dont get so mad but its looks like you already way passed that...if our black levels rise and are still better than samsung, thats saying a lot. but its ok, you got your swivel stand and PIP...

I really hope you are trying to be funny with your comment. Otherwise it shows how utterly unknowing you are when it comes to our planet. It may seem to you like a lot of complaining. Unfortunately a vast amount of the public is really ignorant of what is really happening. I have a PhD in Chemistry and I can assure you that we have been poisoning our planet for a long time. In undergraduate work i caught fish off our local pier in Long Beach and checked for Mercury levels. They were high and the year was 1972. Since that time you are discouraged from eating any fish caught from the pier or a short distance out from San Diego to Santa Barbara.

Who knew back then that we were killing ourselves and our future generations. The same goes for DDT, had scientists not voiced concern that bird eggs in the wild were so thin that they cracked before the chick was developed, we would still be using it.

Who thought asbestos would prematurely kill you years later. Who thought lead in paint was bad. Who thought that dumping your used oil or old prescriptions, or draining out your radiator into the sewer system was bad?
Scientists continue to review years of data to better understand what is happening in our environment.

I cannot believe nor understand why so many people seem to write off global climate change. I have traveled throughout the world and we as a people are polluting just about every place we live.

If you were just being funny then I hear you and my comments to you are not to be taken too harshly. However, others who read this may just run with it which further distorts the data and information.

I demand that manufacturers do what is right for our world and its inhabitants, and not just make a short term dollar.

Manny

+1

So - just why are you posting in this thread?

Since you obviously are unable to discern the problem in your TVs, why are you so bothered that people who can are upset about it?

For many of us, we selected the Panasonics based purely on picture quality being superior to, for example, the Samsungs. I looked at the Samsungs (even bought one as a second TV after buying my first G10 but returned it for a second G10) and it was superior to the Panasonic in color controls, knobs I could turn during my calibrations, just about every area - except picture quality. The very low MLL of the G10 gave it a much better picture to my eyes - side by side in my home the G10 just "popped" relative to the Samsung, primarily due to the better contrast that came from the superior MLL.

Had I known that Panasonic had built in a flaw that doubled or tripled the MLL to erase the picture quality advantage it had over the Samsung, I'd have gone with the Samsungs. In other words - they lured me in with a picture quality that their own design degraded after a relatively short period of time.

Again, since you don't have the ability to see this difference, you probably won't gain anything from this thread. But your lack of visual discernment isn't going to convince those of us who have seen the dramatic degradation in our TVs that we should consider it acceptable.

I have a 58s1. I still think the picture is good even though I'm sure the MLL has increased a bit. It doesn't effect my enjoyment of the TV and I watch a lot of movies in a dark room. The price I paid, even back in November was ridiculous for a 58" plasma. It seems that because the 58/65 inch models start at a lower MLL the increase isn't as dramatic. There may be other reasons as well but at this point no one knows.

Those that are unhappy with their sets, please don't take this the wrong way. i don't think the way Panny handled the situation, whether intentional or not, is ethical. Also, I personally will probably never buy a Panasonic product again based on principal if they do not do something for people that have issues. This is a very big purchase for a lot of people and I'm willing to bet based on the price point that this was a first HDTV purchase for many. Its a shame that this would be their first experience.

So you owe an apology to Al Gore, and Panasonic lied to Cnet when they claimed that they had screwed up the voltage increase amounts?

You should read the Hans Christian Andersen tale about The King's new clothes.

Panasonic, do something !!!!!!!
My black is now dark gray.

LMAO! What a joke.

c'mon everyone...I've had this guy on ignore for a month, but everyone keeps quoting him so I still end up reading it...gimme a break!! (not you robi, I mean Documaker)

Sounds like extreme stances at both ends here. I ended up buying a PN50B650, but I shopped comparable Panasonics as well. Both have a lot of good points, and a few negatives. I liked a couple of features (not even related to PQ, interestingly enough -- but certainly worthwhile features that shouldn't be marginalized as just "PIP and a swivel stand") on the Samsung, and found a good deal on it... that's what pushed me over the edge. But I really was teetering between the two for a while.

Anyway, hyperbole that puts one on a pedestal and the other in a ditch (which I've seen done on both sides) doesn't really seem to reflect reality. Or serve much purpose other than self-validation.

Getting back on-topic, it's certainly disappointing that the Plasma front-runners are both plagued with issues that can become deal-breakers. What's worse is that, while some of these issues are hit-and-miss, others (like Panasonic's MLL woes) seem to be systemic and widespread. I sincerely hope that Panasonic does the right thing and remedies the MLL problem for those with affected sets.

This is my 3rd Panny TV, but my first Plasma and I am very disappointed with putting out almost $2K for a TV and having all these issues.
Since panny has no plans on fixing this issue, I fear this is going to be my last purchase from them ever.
I got this based on the raving reviews from Cnet and all the other companies. I feel like panny mugged me and took my money.

Like others, wanted to post my interaction with THX, based on promptings from this community. It does look like they are investigating. After waiting 3 years to get an HDTV, and researching all the options, thinking last year was really the year to dive in,we dived in....to this. Unbelievable.

THX email chain:

Thank you. I hope you continue to investigate it, to help keep your certifications in the community legitimate, as well as to press Panasonic to release a fix for what appears to be a blatant move to misguide buyers about the performance one can expect from Panasonic plasma TVs. We paid for a certain level of performance, only to find out that this level is not sustained past a few hundred hours.

*********


On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Graham McKenna wrote:

HI ********,

Thanks. I'll pass this along to our team. I'll reach out if we have additional questions.



Regards,

Graham




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:19 PM
To: Graham McKenna
Subject: Re: Panasonic Black levels and THX certification



Hi Graham, thanks for the response. Please see my info below. I have noticed the black levels increasing, and frankly, it's unacceptable! I hope you all investigate and will pull your THX certification based on your findings. I've also noticed our THX is greenish in tint, and we are getting a technician out to update the firmware to fix that issue also. Unfortunately the rising MLL with the black levels negatively impacts the THX mode.

*******




On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 5:24 PM, Graham McKenna wrote:

*********,

Sorry to hear that you are experiencing these issues with your TV.



We are aware of the reports about the Panasonic displays and are gathering data on the models in question. To help us collect information about what you are experiencing, please send me the following:



Model: Panasonic G10

Purchase: July 2009

Date of Manufacture (If you know it):MAY 2009

Serial#:************

Store or Web site where the TV was purchased:AMAZON

What TV Mode are you using?THX



Any information you can send is appreciated.



Regards,

Graham McKenna

THX Ltd.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 10:00 AM
To: THX Displays
Subject: Panasonic Black levels and THX certification



Hi, I'm writing in response to your apparent attention to the very serious black issues affecting Panasonic plasma TVs. We own a 54G10 purchased last July 2009, and are also seeing black levels increase. We were attracted to the TV due to the THX certification which also involved certain black level standards. As a current owner, I'm VERY worried about these levels continuing to rise and impacting the THX viewing which we enjoy. I believe this was false advertising on Panasonic's part, and impacting the THX certification in terms of not meeting those standards.



I will not be getting a meter because I can see it with my own eyes. However, I'm sure you will be getting more objective data from many other owners.



Please continue to investigate!



Thanks,


********

The development of this thread is starting to discredit AVS - the signal to noise ratio is much lower than it should be.

Panasonic, which is almost certainly reading this, must be taking some solace in the lack of clarity and moderation which is escalating day by day (rather like the black level problem itself).

Admin?

With all due respect, batpig, you mentioned 2x on the same page that THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PANEL LIFE!!! and seemingly got quite upset about people not listening; but yet, you didn't even provide a basic 5-10 word correction or clarification regarding what the rising black level is intended to do...

Some assistance and clarity would be appreciated, rather than just pointing out that we are wrong.

And, BTW, FWIW, I *am* an engineer with about 25 years experience, only not in the electronics field...

Cheers
The REAL Joe