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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 259

post #7741 of 10800
4/3/10 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvidia View Post

As if I wasn't already pissed0f with my G10 black problem ... today I got this "present" :


















What do you guys think ? Dying plasma ? It's a case for a return isn't it ??

One question ... the G20 also sufers from the black level problem?

Looks like you may be getting a replacement.
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post #7742 of 10800
4/3/10 at 10:07am
Cnet update. 4/2/2010

"
Follow-up: Panasonic plasma black-level loss measured in long-term test

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...eed&subj=Crave


"
On January 26, after we heard about the potential problem, we began long-term tests of two 2009 Panasonic plasma review samples we had in our lab, a TC-P50V10 and a TC-P54S1. Now, after about 1,000 hours of use, each TV has shown an increase in the level of "black" it can produce, leading to decreased overall picture quality.
The latest measurements of the V10 reveal a black level of 0.016 Ftl at 982 hours of use, compared with the 0.008 we measured previously. Black on the S1 measures 0.017 after 1,012 hours, compared with a previous 0.011.
These results are similar to increases we measured on a TC-P50G10 and a TC-42G10. Neither was aged under controlled conditions in our lab, but both reproduced black at 0.023 ftl after about 1,500 hours (at the average rate of 5.2 hours per day, a TV logs about 1,900 hours in a typical year). We suspect that more aging of our two in-house models will result in similar rates of increase, but only further testing will tell."
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post #7743 of 10800
4/3/10 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkypimp1974 View Post

Seriously, I totally agree. These people are ridiculous. At the end of the day, it's just a TV. Get a life.

well if you spent $1,000 on a tv or more like some have and it had a great picture and now it has a great picture except in dark scenes/blacks i think you would be poed as well. the majority purchased these tv's because of the black levels/picture quality and now they are not so black but more grey and that has affected the overall picture quality.
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post #7744 of 10800
4/3/10 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

No offense but exposure doesnt matter at all so long as the image is representing the issue. As someone that has the issue I assure you. It does.

Bwahahaha. Exposure doesn't matter? What a joke.
Please stop that BS and exaggeration.

Here is thebigdaddye's second photo corrected (in Adobe Lightroom) for exposure from 1 sec to match as it were at 1/8 sec in the first photo.



Here is thebigdaddye's TV as of 4-3-2010:






And here is thebigdaddye's TV as of year ago 3-28-2009:





Even if there had been any black level raise - it is so minor that the camera didn't capture it.








LL
LL
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post #7745 of 10800
4/3/10 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

We asked him to take pics and he did. He didn't profess to be the worlds greatest photographer. However, it is very apparent that there is a rise in his black levels. Cut the guy some slack.

Ya'll are making the assumption that I'm talking only about this set of pictures. I'm not. No pictures prove anything in this instance, even when taken in mostly controlled circumstances. Pictures can lie, everyone knows that. I could make my panny look much more inky dark or much more glowy than real life if I wanted, easily, through manipulations of all sorts, both pre and post snap.

Since you want to talk about THIS picture - it doesn't take an expert photographer to know that (EXIF data) you are using 8x the shutter opening length on the second photo. The blur, the blown out lighter areas, and yes, probably the brightness would all suggest that. And the fact that it is that setting used for the latter picture that is even more suggestive, rightly or wrongly, that the fix is in, and that the image is meant to intentionally skew the result toward the hypothesis. In defense of this image, some have said, "hey, that's ok, because that's what reality should be anyway." This is just plain wrong by any objective measure.

But this particular picture isn't and hasn't been my point, only perhaps the catalyst for my latest screed in the way people are reacting. The ends (wanting your tv fixed/replaced) do not justify the means (making wild claims not substantiated or in some cases even presented by facts).

Black level rise exists. I'm convinced, mainly by the evidence of my own eyes on my set, certainly by the empirical data provided by some more level headed forum members using verifiable measuring methods.

My point is simply that devoting time and energy to the breathless, unfounded, easily debunked - or at least highly questionable, inherently suspect "evidence" that some think is compelling is actually undermining their, my, and everyone else's case in this instance.

These methods are not helpful, they further lessen the possibility that any real attention will be paid. Supporting, asking for, or for goodness' sake defending this "evidence" is even more destructive to our claims.

Tin-foil hat conspiracy nuts is what they will dismiss this whole forum as. Whether we have a legitimate gripe or not. That is my point.
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post #7746 of 10800
4/3/10 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by barmalei View Post

Bwahahaha. Exposure doesn't matter? What a joke.
Please stop that BS and exaggeration.

Here is thebigdaddye's second photo corrected (in Adobe Lightroom) for exposure from 1 sec to match as it were at 1/8 sec in the first photo.



Here is thebigdaddye's TV as of 4-3-2010:






And here is thebigdaddye's TV as of year ago 3-28-2009:





Even if there had been any black level raise - it is so minor that the camera didn't capture it.







Your lol troll funny. 1 post to join in on the conversation. 1 post to do some wiuzardy correction of an original photo. If your so dam scientific you would know your photo doesnt mean **** either.

Really 1 post. Ill just call you a panny rep and call it a day.
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post #7747 of 10800
4/3/10 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedcaum View Post

How DARE you cast aspersions on my very real anguish, agony, turmoil, sense of betrayal, and degradation by the evil overlords at panasonic?

How DARE you, sir?

They have used and abused each and every consumer out there for the last time, the LAST TIME I say! No longer will we sit idly by, watching our televisions and enjoying the content presented thereon, duped by malicious and nefarious claims of excellent picture quality dreamed up by some marketing department somewhere. Even though we already knew that they were full of malarkey in the first place!

NAY!

We will huddle in our dark rooms, cameras, monitors, and meters in hand, adroitly and astutely verifying every nebulous and non-specific claim made by EVERY manufacturer of EVERY television, after being unceremoniously DUPED by this behemoth of malicious corporate disregard for customer confidence. They have taken our very INNOCENCE, I tell you! The days of watching what is ON the television are OVER!

And when we think that maybe we might have seen some change in quality or even a minute and otherwise undetectable divergence from what we think our perception might have been of an image presented on a theretofore unfamiliar to us television monitor of any description from here on out, whether it be hours, days, weeks, months, years, or any combination or permutation thereof later, and whether we have any actual memory or verifiable proof that there is an actual difference, WE WILL NOT BE SILENT!

We shall make our voices heard, to every lowly customer service agent be they staged in Detroit or New Delhi, whether they could conceivably address our plight or not. We shall scream from the telephones on the 800 numbers our outrage, our incensitude, our ANGER, for our misuse and abuse - or even the assumed abuse of our brothers and sisters that might or could conceviably be so affected at some time eventually even if we personally have not suffered such - at the hands of their masters, and we shall demand calls back from their supervisors!

We shall call for FIRMWARES! Or perhaps EXTENDED WARRANTIES to cover potential vagaries of time ad infinitum! We insist upon TECH VISITS for every seemingly specious suggestion of less than indicated quality we may care to make! HARDWARE FIXES! COUPONS! REBATES! OH, HEARTLESS AND SOULLESS CORPORATIONS, HEAR OUR CRIES!

We shall make our sentences read on every forum and review site in every nook of every cranny of the world wide intertubes, and we shall not rest until every thread on every page of every website reeks with the foul odor that our festering outrage can produce, whether the discussions thereon have anything to do with our issue or not! THEY CANNOT SQUELCH OUR DISCONTENT, FOR NOW AND EVERMORE IS ITS WINTER!

SOMEONE MUST PAY!


(But probably not for another panasonic. At least until we get some opinions on the 2010 models. Unless the price is really good. Or maybe if we have to return the Samsung for buzzing or the LG for IR. Then maybe. But we don't have to like it. AND WE SHAN'T)



I wish my brain wasn't so dull. I can't remember if you are paraphrasing Richard III or Winston Churchill. Either way, the speech would be perfect. Maybe if Winston and Adolph got together, they could produce a combined effort against the menace from the East.
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post #7748 of 10800
4/3/10 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

Your lol troll funny. 1 post to join in on the conversation. 1 post to do some wiuzardy correction of an original photo. If your so dam scientific you would know your photo doesnt mean **** either.

Really 1 post. Ill just call you a panny rep and call it a day.

Me a Panasonic rep? Bwahaha. Something's wrong inside your head, mate. I don't own a single thing made by Panasonic. My TV is a Sony and is few years old - nothing special so I might be shopping for a new one soon - that's why I was browsing CNET - checking out the new 3D stuff. There I read about Panasonic black level issues, googled a bit and opened this forum/thread to see what's it about. First thing I saw were those two pictures, checked their EXIF and the exposure is way off.

I did wizardry? LOL. Took me 5 seconds to step down the picture so the exposure and ISO of the two match as if they were taken with the same camera settings. I am not a pro photographer - just a photo enthusiast with a Pentax camera and Lightroom. But it doesn't take a pro photographer to know what exposure is ...

So, get a life .... :rofl:
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post #7749 of 10800
4/3/10 at 12:48pm
Reality Check;

There is no need for people to keep posting pictures, and engaging in arguments about what they depict. Your sets are not special. Of course the MLL has risen on them over time. That is what they have been programmed to do. Panasonic has admitted that already, and said that it was a mistake on their part.

Sites like Cnet, are monitoring the sets as they age, and confirming that the black levels are degrading, within the first 2,000 hours or less.

Stop with the pictures nonsense. There is no need to gild the lily with your own special video evidence. The case has already been proven, and Panasonic has admitted that it is happening to all the units. So, for cripes sake, keep those fight inducing pictures to yourselves.

The thread is about ephemeral black levels, and not about how accurate someone's pictures are. Stop it now.
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post #7750 of 10800
4/3/10 at 1:21pm
I wish CNET would test a 58 or 65 as well
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post #7751 of 10800
4/3/10 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

I wish CNET would test a 58 or 65 as well

Please, we don't need any more bad news.
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post #7752 of 10800
4/3/10 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Reality Check;

There is no need for people to keep posting pictures, and engaging in arguments about what they depict. Your sets are not special. Of course the MLL has risen on them over time. That is what they have been programmed to do. Panasonic has admitted that already, and said that it was a mistake on their part.

Sites like Cnet, are monitoring the sets as they age, and confirming that the black levels are degrading, within the first 2,000 hours or less.

Stop with the pictures nonsense. There is no need to gild the lily with your own special video evidence. The case has already been proven, and Panasonic has admitted that it is happening to all the units. So, for cripes sake, keep those fight inducing pictures to yourselves.

The thread is about ephemeral black levels, and not about how accurate someone's pictures are. Stop it now.

Couldnt have said it better myself. Just like the G10 in our store with over 3,000 hours with black blacks...still looks amazing but if i posted pics everyone would call me a liar and i was making it all up. I bought a Panasonic knowing this and i could care less becasue the PQ is still going to be better than half the LCD's/LED's out there even after the rise and for 1299 for the G20, its a great TV. Floating blacks bother me more than the thought of my black levels rising. At least thats uniform unlike these blacks always changing.
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post #7753 of 10800
4/3/10 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvidia View Post

...
One question ... The g20 also sufers from the black level problem?

?
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post #7754 of 10800
4/3/10 at 2:43pm
I was wondering if I am using good settings for taking my pictures. I have a Cannon SD1100 IS. There is also a bias lamp behind my TV. Thanks.
LL
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post #7755 of 10800
4/3/10 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvidia View Post

One question ... The g20 also sufers from the black level problem?

D-Nice has measurements of a G20 with black level rise from 0.007 to 0.0095 ftL after 375 hours.
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post #7756 of 10800
4/3/10 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigdaddye View Post

i do have a problem with you saying it's not worth the space on here says who YOU? do you own any of these plasmas with this problem? did you purchase a plasma with great black level only to see them turn to nearly grey? if your tv had this problem you would be poed.

My own photos of my own V10 are posted in this very thread and are up for the same scrutiny as everyone else who posts pics here.

I won't rehash what jedcaum has said because he has summed up my thoughts perfectly. What you are submitting is harmful to your own cause and the cause in general. You could have simply stated "My blacks have risen" and it would have been of more benefit here than those pictures.

If we want a wider audience to see what Panasonic are playing at, we need to be able to convey what is happening in an easily digestible manner and without a countless number questionable variables.
Photographs can be helpful in that regard, but when they are simply given an exaggerated bias to convey an idea, they undermine any chance of us as a collective speaking in one voice and in the same language.
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post #7757 of 10800
4/3/10 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

I was wondering if I am using good settings for taking my pictures. I have a Cannon SD1100 IS. There is also a bias lamp behind my TV. Thanks.

Don't use a bias light, don't use any ambient light if you can avoid it.
You've got no accompanying EXIF data with those shots, its been lost in translation. How are we to trust you haven't been fiddling?

Follow Ortas example on page 1 of this thread. Save his pictures to your desktop, study the EXIF data and do what you have to to replicate the same results.

Orta used those settings because they gave him the best approximation of what he sees with his own eyes in a blackened room. When I began my own documentation I tried various settings and found that his were the best for my own situation. Many others have also used the same settings and their examples are littered throughout this thread. Why reinvent the wheel?
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post #7758 of 10800
4/3/10 at 3:16pm
Does this problem affect the TH-42PX60U? I tried searching the thread for mention of it but didn't see any confirmation. I know the original post mentions 08 and 09 models but I'm wondering if this problem existed at all before then.
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post #7759 of 10800
4/3/10 at 3:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvidia View Post

One question ... The g20 also sufers from the black level problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erahk64 View Post

D-Nice has measurements of a G20 with black level rise from 0.007 to 0.0095 ftL after 375 hours.

Since this seems to be a common question, I've included D-Nice's S2/G20 evaluations in the measurement section of the OP as well as updated "What Model Lines are affected?" in the FAQ section.
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post #7760 of 10800
4/3/10 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigdaddye View Post

well if you spent $1,000 on a tv or more like some have and it had a great picture and now it has a great picture except in dark scenes/blacks i think you would be poed as well. the majority purchased these tv's because of the black levels/picture quality and now they are not so black but more grey and that has affected the overall picture quality.

I did spend $1650.00 for a 58s1 and I don't see any difference and I have had it since 12/5/10. It probably has around 700 hours on it.
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post #7761 of 10800
4/3/10 at 3:52pm
Do you know if the G10 are still produced/comercialized??

I ask this because I will return my 46G10 and I'd like to know if I will receive a G10 or a G20
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post #7762 of 10800
4/3/10 at 4:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by erahk64 View Post

D-Nice has measurements of a G20 with black level rise from 0.007 to 0.0095 ftL after 375 hours.

well
that's bad but 0.0095 is still insanely black

that's like kuro levels of black
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post #7763 of 10800
4/3/10 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

well
that's bad but 0.0095 is still insanely black

that's like kuro levels of black

I think 8G Kuro has 0.004 ftL or lower and 9G Kuro has 0.001 ftL or lower
(depends on the model).

Kuro black level is definitely lower than 0.0095 ftL.
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post #7764 of 10800
4/3/10 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vader8806 View Post

for good or bad im stuck with panny plasma, i like the pq on samsung and lg plasma sets, but due to input lag and IR, are not usable for me(Gaming).....also like many lcd sets, but once again input lag, and in my case off angle viewing (I dont have a dedicated theater room and often set about 20 degrees off center) eliminate these options

i may consider and lg plasma down the road as a theater room set, but keep my panny for a gaming display

exactly. i've evaluated all options and keep ending up in the same place as you: panasonic.
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post #7765 of 10800
4/3/10 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by erahk64 View Post

I think 8G Kuro has 0.004 ftL or lower and 9G Kuro has 0.001 ftL or lower
(depends on the model).

Kuro black level is definitely lower than 0.0095 ftL.

the human eye can't really see the difference between that though

most meters can't even read below .01
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post #7766 of 10800
4/3/10 at 5:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

the human eye can't really see the difference between that though

most meters can't even read below .01

I have seen 8G and 9G Kuro in the same room.
I could see the difference between these and I know that other people in this forum has said they can see the difference, for example D-Nice.

Minolta LS-100 can read down to 0.001 ftL.
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post #7767 of 10800
4/3/10 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by erahk64 View Post

I think 8G Kuro has 0.004 ftL or lower and 9G Kuro has 0.001 ftL or lower
(depends on the model).

Kuro black level is definitely lower than 0.0095 ftL.

Actually, I think the 8G's were more around the 0.006-0.008ftL range. Which makes sense because I had a 5010FD before I returned it due to horrible buzzing and my out-of-box 58S1, which are also known to measure around that range, looked virtually identical to the Pioneer in terms of black level.

But I agree, Kuro levels are definitely darker than 0.0095ftL. And I definitely wouldn't call 0.0095ftL "insanely black", although I would call it very good. I'd call my current 0.012ftL on my 58S1 just good.
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post #7768 of 10800
4/3/10 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

the human eye can't really see the difference between that though

most meters can't even read below .01


The lowly i1 LT specification is 0.02 cd/m^2 or about 0.006 ftL. In practice it does better. Read the calibration forum.

Larry
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post #7769 of 10800
4/3/10 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedcaum View Post

How DARE you cast aspersions on my very real anguish, agony, turmoil, sense of betrayal, and degradation by the evil overlords at panasonic?

How DARE you, sir?

They have used and abused each and every consumer out there for the last time, the LAST TIME I say! No longer will we sit idly by, watching our televisions and enjoying the content presented thereon, duped by malicious and nefarious claims of excellent picture quality dreamed up by some marketing department somewhere. Even though we already knew that they were full of malarkey in the first place!

NAY!

We will huddle in our dark rooms, cameras, monitors, and meters in hand, adroitly and astutely verifying every nebulous and non-specific claim made by EVERY manufacturer of EVERY television, after being unceremoniously DUPED by this behemoth of malicious corporate disregard for customer confidence. They have taken our very INNOCENCE, I tell you! The days of watching what is ON the television are OVER!

And when we think that maybe we might have seen some change in quality or even a minute and otherwise undetectable divergence from what we think our perception might have been of an image presented on a theretofore unfamiliar to us television monitor of any description from here on out, whether it be hours, days, weeks, months, years, or any combination or permutation thereof later, and whether we have any actual memory or verifiable proof that there is an actual difference, WE WILL NOT BE SILENT!

We shall make our voices heard, to every lowly customer service agent be they staged in Detroit or New Delhi, whether they could conceivably address our plight or not. We shall scream from the telephones on the 800 numbers our outrage, our incensitude, our ANGER, for our misuse and abuse - or even the assumed abuse of our brothers and sisters that might or could conceviably be so affected at some time eventually even if we personally have not suffered such - at the hands of their masters, and we shall demand calls back from their supervisors!

We shall call for FIRMWARES! Or perhaps EXTENDED WARRANTIES to cover potential vagaries of time ad infinitum! We insist upon TECH VISITS for every seemingly specious suggestion of less than indicated quality we may care to make! HARDWARE FIXES! COUPONS! REBATES! OH, HEARTLESS AND SOULLESS CORPORATIONS, HEAR OUR CRIES!

We shall make our sentences read on every forum and review site in every nook of every cranny of the world wide intertubes, and we shall not rest until every thread on every page of every website reeks with the foul odor that our festering outrage can produce, whether the discussions thereon have anything to do with our issue or not! THEY CANNOT SQUELCH OUR DISCONTENT, FOR NOW AND EVERMORE IS ITS WINTER!

SOMEONE MUST PAY!


(But probably not for another panasonic. At least until we get some opinions on the 2010 models. Unless the price is really good. Or maybe if we have to return the Samsung for buzzing or the LG for IR. Then maybe. But we don't have to like it. AND WE SHAN'T)


What he said.
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post #7770 of 10800
4/3/10 at 6:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

well
that's bad but 0.0095 is still insanely black

that's like kuro levels of black

Quote:
Originally Posted by erahk64 View Post

I think 8G Kuro has 0.004 ftL or lower and 9G Kuro has 0.001 ftL or lower
(depends on the model).

Kuro black level is definitely lower than 0.0095 ftL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper View Post

Actually, I think the 8G's were more around the 0.006-0.008ftL range. Which makes sense because I had a 5010FD before I returned it due to horrible buzzing and my out-of-box 58S1, which are also known to measure around that range, looked virtually identical to the Pioneer in terms of black level.

But I agree, Kuro levels are definitely darker than 0.0095ftL. And I definitely wouldn't call 0.0095ftL "insanely black", although I would call it very good. I'd call my current 0.012ftL on my 58S1 just good.

Not really sure what you guys are discussing, obviously 0.0095fL is not expected to be a final value. It's just some arbitrary point the panel happened to be at when D got rid of the unit or stopped measuring. He has stated multiple times the 2010's are expected to triple like the earlier model years.
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