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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 27

post #781 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I've linked to a couple users in the original post that thought they saw the increase on the S1.

Yes, I just read them myself. I really appreciate your effort on this thread. And I look forward to findings on your new S1. I have had my 54s1 for about 200 hours and I frankly can't tell if the black level got worse or not. Watching BD movies in completely dark room, I do notice that the letterbox is not as black as the TV frame except when the picture has some bright contents. Don't know if that's normal or not.
post #782 of 11163
what happened with the Japanese engineers working on that firmware fix for blacks
post #783 of 11163
I have 42pv80 for almost 2 years. Its EU 720 panel . Have noticed blacks doubled long ago before reading this thread. Actualy I was browsing to find something that proves my "still clear mind". lol. My tv is totaly unvachable in dark room now, as blacks are more like light grey than dark, especially when waching darker scenes. Cartoons are okay thouh (sadly I am far from proper age to wach them). Bright scenes looks beautifull as used to, when wached during light period of the day.
I dont thing problem is related to G10 or G15 model or Neo panel itself.
Just my $0.1
post #784 of 11163
My friend had a older model Pioneer plasma I think it's the PDP-5040HD after using it for 3-4 years had this same black level doubled or turn grey issue.
post #785 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by fzigen View Post

My friend had a older model Pioneer plasma I think it's the PDP-5040HD after using it for 3-4 years had this same black level doubled or turn grey issue.

3-4 years on pioneer and 300-400 hr on panasonic ... now compare!!!
post #786 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Yes, I just read them myself. I really appreciate your effort on this thread. And I look forward to findings on your new S1. I have had my 54s1 for about 200 hours and I frankly can't tell if the black level got worse or not. Watching BD movies in completely dark room, I do notice that the letterbox is not as black as the TV frame except when the picture has some bright contents. Don't know if that's normal or not.

Yup, that entirely normal. Unless you have a Kuro blacks will never really look close to being pitch black in the dark.
post #787 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

My px60u measured about 0.033 ftL
My px75u measured about 0.024 ftL
Both my px80us measured about 0.016 ftL
They did not seem to change over the year I had each of them.


Both my X1s started out at about 0.014 and now they both are at about 0.024 ftL

Larry

Larry, can you explain something to me. You are saying your X1's are now at .24 ftl. Previously you stated, "50X1 varied from 0.016 to 0.017 to 0.019 ftL for readings taken at about 200, 900, and 1200 hours respectively. The black level readings are probably within the expected inherent range considering test condition variations." What gives? How come this number keeps rising? Is it the phosporus aging or something else?

Also a while back you said (and I'm paraphrasing) that you increased your sub-brt by 3 upticks. It seemed to help with the blacks. Are you saying that this created an illusion of percieved darker blacks? Just curious.
post #788 of 11163
The 0.024 ftL is from a reading I took on 4 December -- done just out of curiosity. The set must have close to 2000 hours on it now. I didn't look to see the exact number. So, on the X1 anyway, it appears that the increase is a smoother function with time than that noted on the G and V series.

Yes, after measuring the levels, the sub-brt thing turns out to be a figment of my imagination.

Larry
post #789 of 11163
A tech just installed a new A-board in my G10. My black level is back to it's original appearance -- very inky. It was immediately noticeable. Also, THX is still without the yellowish-green cast, so finally I have both problems solved. I noticed on the screen that popped up after the A-board installation that firmware is at 1.24. I have about 6 months left on my initial warranty, so hopefully the black level is going to lighten again it will be before my warranty's up; or, even better, a firmware fix for this problem will be developed soon, so that no one will have to extend their warranty just to cover this issue.
post #790 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

... So, on the X1 anyway, it appears that the increase is a smoother function with time than that noted on the G and V series.

Has anybody actually reported (or measured) the increase on a V10? I seached the thread and found several people asking if anyone has seen it on a V10. There was also speculation regarding separate (not head-to-head) online reviews of the G10 and V10 in which the same reviewer rated the G10 blacks levels better (weak and anecdotal evidence at best).

daj
post #791 of 11163
What does the A-board do exactly? It sounds like some techs are willing to work on these units and some are not. My TV looks fine during the day so I don't know how I will convince the Panasonic tech there is a rise in black levels but by now I hope it's becoming a more commonly reported problem.

I sold Panasonic plasmas for 3 years as a rep through Actionlink and promised people excellent blacks only to find out those blacks don't last very long at all.
post #792 of 11163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajmacd View Post

Has anybody actually reported (or measured) the increase on a V10? I seached the thread and found several people asking if anyone has seen it on a V10. There was also speculation regarding separate (not head-to-head) online reviews of the G10 and V10 in which the same reviewer rated the G10 blacks levels better (weak and anecdotal evidence at best).

daj

Donnymac has measured inflated readings with 3 different meters on a V10. I don't think it's necessary to search this thread, I believe I have everything of use linked in the original post under updates.
post #793 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by exbagboy View Post

What does the A-board do exactly? It sounds like some techs are willing to work on these units and some are not. My TV looks fine during the day so I don't know how I will convince the Panasonic tech there is a rise in black levels but by now I hope it's becoming a more commonly reported problem.

I sold Panasonic plasmas for 3 years as a rep through Actionlink and promised people excellent blacks only to find out those blacks don't last very long at all.

Here's what I did. I talked to someone (I guess he was a Concierge) at Panasonic about my inflated black level. He never understood what my problem was, but he sent a local tech to my house anyway. This tech was not a Panasonic tech, just someone from a local video repair place that has a contract with Panasonic. He couldn't see any problem with my black level when I showed him some very dark scenes from the Godfather II blu-ray that I thought showed obviously light blacks. Granted, this was in full daylight without blackout shades. However, I just told him that I knew that other people with the same problem were having their A-boards replaced, and he did exactly that. Now I'm back in black. As you said, maybe not every tech would be that cooperative, but it's worth a try. Probably they'll help you out as long as they know Panasonic will foot the bill.
post #794 of 11163
I do notice the blacks being much lighter but I figured it was that I was getting used to the set.
post #795 of 11163
I'm glad you have a fix ... but without a before and after measured improvement ... or even before and after pics in a totally dark room ... this could simply be a placebo effect in play ... could it not ??

No disrespect intented to tlivesay ... but I'd like some kind of "evidence" of the correction by a board swap ... not necessarily "proof" ... just something (-;

Cheers, jls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlivesay View Post

A tech just installed a new A-board in my G10. My black level is back to it's original appearance -- very inky. It was immediately noticeable. Also, THX is still without the yellowish-green cast, so finally I have both problems solved. I noticed on the screen that popped up after the A-board installation that firmware is at 1.24. I have about 6 months left on my initial warranty, so hopefully the black level is going to lighten again it will be before my warranty's up; or, even better, a firmware fix for this problem will be developed soon, so that no one will have to extend their warranty just to cover this issue.
post #796 of 11163
I think my G10 is one of the worst example how gray those blacks eventually gets.

I have european version TX-P42G10. I noticed this change immediately because I owned CRT TV before and always enjoyed my movies in dimmed lightning or completely dark. After awhile (500 hours max and two months) the glorious blacks became a light(er) gray. But to me this set as brand new, is a dream machine.

I posted this because no-one cannot deny it anymore after seeing those pictures. The pictures show one of the cheapest (and worst) 24" 1920/1200 LCD monitors in the market today; BenQ 2400WD. It's 2-3 years old and uses cheap TN panel and costs about 199 euros/dollars or even less. It's black level is mediocre at best. I think some might say it doesn't have blacks at all, only various shades of gray. It's gamma is somewhere around 1.4 so there are no shadow details whatsoever. Everything is washed out which is common in cheap TN displays, I've learned.

Both sets are powered on (as their lights indicates). Pictures are taken in a pitch black room with ISO setting at AUTO and ISO200 to compensate the quality of my camera. So there are lots of graininess in those photos but anyone can see the difference. Actually, ISO200 looks very much like in real life. All lights on my (AV-system) are covered with black tape except power lights.

Settings for G10:
brightness (from -30 to +30) = -30
contrast (from 0 to 60) = 0
gamma (from 2.0 to 2.5) = 2.5 (highest/darkest setting for EU model)
eco-mode OFF
with these settings the screen is set as dark as possible and is unwatchable.


settings for G2400:
Brightness 50 (scale 0-100)
Contrast 49 (scale 0-100)
theres no backlight setting in this poor monitor. With these settings picture is actually too bright for pitch black room.


Lights on:



Lights off and camera set to auto
Picture is too dark because that BenQ doesn't have nowhere near that kind of black level.



Lights OFF and ISO setting at 200. In this photo, black levels looks very much like in real life.


I think this is a bullet-proof method to see my G10 has mediocre black level (at best). At least when compared to cheapest LCD display I found couple of years ago.


ps. I do not know much about technology or so, but IIRC real contrast ratio of that BenQ is about 400:1. How my G10 can possibly has any better contrast with this kind of black level, because both has same kind of brightness to my eyes (even when contrast set to max).

...and yes, I've used break-in slides. And yes, this "change" happened over a night (or two) on July. I bought this set on May. I haven't done anything about it because I'm lazy and thought it's just my typical luck. Still I'm not happy to hear I'm not alone with this. I'm coming from Sony Trinitron CRT and always enjoyed watching movies in dark or pitch black room. It's easy here in Finland because in winter there's no sunlight after 4:00pm. G12 Panasonic were best and only choice for me because of price and its black level.


NOTE: When comparing those photos you have to use calibrated monitor. Gamma must be set near 2.2! Using QuickGamma or similar program is good way get correct gamma to your PC display. Sorry my awkward english.
post #797 of 11163
I just realized I own two other displays and did quick comparison...

Sony PSP: blacks are better than my G10
GPS navigator: same here

I cannot but laugh!
post #798 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

I'm glad you have a fix ... but without a before and after measured improvement ... or even before and after pics in a totally dark room ... this could simply be a placebo effect in play ... could it not ??

No disrespect intented to tlivesay ... but I'd like some kind of "evidence" of the correction by a board swap ... not necessarily "proof" ... just something (-;

Cheers, jls.

Yes, I wish I could provide evidence or proof but I have no meter (neither did the tech!) and I don't think my camera would've shown the evidence either. I'll just say this. I'm as susceptible to the placebo effect as anyone, but this was like night and day. It might not have been if I'd been watching, say, Arrested Development on standard dvd, but all I had to do was put on one of the interior scenes from the Godfather II blu-ray and I could tell the difference in a split second. In fact, I would recommend this disc as a test disc for this black level issue. Many of the scenes in this film were so underexposed (deliberately by the cinematographer) that the lab guys making prints from the negative thought it was a mistake and tried to brighten it up. When they did this, they noticed that there was nothing there in the black areas, no extra detail. The cinematographer had done this so that no one would want to make brighter prints. All you would get was an a massive grey smear of extreme film grain. That way he was effectively controlling how every print of the film would look, by giving no choices to anyone else in the process.
That's why it's such a good test disc for this issue. Almost anyone even slightly interested in picture quality will notice instantly how awful the picture looks when the blacks are not as dark as they should be. There's Al Pacino's face looking fine, but surrounded by a background with tons of grain but very little detail. I love film grain but it's not good when all that's all you can see.
So after the tech put in the new board, I went straight to one of the scenes with Michael talking to Frank Pantageli in the bar/lounge near the beginning of the movie. The shadows were black, black, black, so black that I couldn't see all that film grain. It's the kind of scene that makes you reach for the remote to turn up the brightness. You can see why those lab guys wanted to lighten it up to find more detail. But also like those lab guys turning up the brightness, you find out that there isn't anything there you'd want to see.
So, to sum it up, I would definitely be questioning myself if I was trying to decide if something in the picture is truely black or just gray, especially if it's next to something bright white, but the Godfather test was cut and dry.
post #799 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by L7R View Post


Wow.
post #800 of 11163
tlivesay,

"The cinematographer had done this so that no one would want to make brighter prints." -- Yes, I know. I took it out of context.

That's a very interesting story but the only account about the dark texture of this film that I've ever heard is that Gordon Willis refused to allow Paramount to brighten it up and Coppola agreed with Willis. So it stayed unchanged.

Larry
post #801 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

tlivesay,

"The cinematographer had done this so that no one would want to make brighter prints." -- Yes, I know. I took it out of context.

That's a very interesting story but the only account about the dark texture of this film that I've ever heard is that Gordon Willis refused to allow Paramount to brighten it up and Coppola agreed with Willis. So it stayed unchanged.

Larry

I think both our stories are true. Willis and Coppola did refuse to allow anyone to lighten it up, and to insure that Willis produced a negative that you couldn't lighten up without it looking bad. I actually heard an interview with Willis where he said that he was afraid someone at the film processing lab would look at that extremely dark negative, think the cinematographer had made a mistake, and take it upon themselves to "correct" it in the print, so he shot the film so dark that no one could make a brighter print without it looking so crappy that they'd get fired for incompetency. There was no "information" in those shadows for anyone to bring out. It's kinda like he pre-crushed his blacks, so to speak, and no one was ever gonna uncrush them. It certainly gave the films a unique look.
post #802 of 11163
tlivesay,

Ahhh. Interesting bit of trivia.

Sorry gang for taking this off topic.

Larry
post #803 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jodiuh View Post

Wow.

In that upper picture BenQ looks like 9G kuro in dark room.

In their G10 review Flatpanelshd measured contrast 3067:1 and 92 cd/m2 when calibrated in cinema mode. Black level was 0.03cd/m2.
I found review where that BenQ has measured contrast ratio of 399:1. So my question remains; could my G10 has better contrast if both sets have equal brightness (to my eyes)?

post #804 of 11163
any idea what getting an A board replaced would cost out of warranty?
post #805 of 11163
This thread makes me glad I bought a KRP-500M.
post #806 of 11163
EXTREMELY damning evidence ... to put it mildly ))-:

Black levels worse than a cheap lcd ... sigh sigh sigh .... my wallet just closed up tightly on the S1 58 inchers ... double drat !!!

jls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jodiuh View Post

Wow.
post #807 of 11163
I bought my G15 in Aug (June build date), ran the 120h slideshow, modified the SM menus with settings I found here and my black levels are just as I remembered them. I'm not sure how many hours I have on it right now since I'm not home but I suspect it must be over 400h at least. I'm using a HTPC/BR to power the G15.

I do know that it seems lighter than black if the screen is displaying all an black scene but it's deep black when it's displaying a picture/video. Since I don't usually watch all black scenes it hasn't bothered me

Since we tend to only hear from people who's having problems with their TVs in threads like these, I figure I'll post to say that my G15's black is still as good as I remembered it. No increase for me.
post #808 of 11163
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2greedy View Post

Since we tend to only hear from people who's having problems with their TVs in threads like these, I figure I'll post to say that my G15's black is still as good as I remembered it. No increase for me.

It's an excellent point. If this is indeed a real issue I dont believe it affects all G10's. The problem gets magnified since we're always just hearing from people who do have the problem while most people are too busy enjoying their tv's to read this thread. I however will take the time to post that I now have 656 hours on my P46G10 and my blacks look the same as when it was first unboxed. Fantastic.
post #809 of 11163
I've been watching this thread and so far I'm not seeing what others are.
The blacks look as good as always. Now this could be just me. I have no way to check.
But from what I' reading I think even I'd notice.

I have a 50G10 with 1242hrs. (I just checked) Firmware is 1.28
post #810 of 11163
Took a quite snapshot of an all black screen on my G10 and Samsung 226BW TN LCD monitor with the lights out:

http://img17.imageshack.us/i/img1472kr.jpg/

The G10 is still waaay darker. You can hardly even find it in this picture. I'll probably take another picture in a few months to determine if the black level has risen at all.
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