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Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 284

post #8491 of 10800
6/8/10 at 12:07pm
actually there are seven 54" sets in the database, here is the 54" model data (sorted by hours):

Code:
NAME / MODEL / PROBE            HOURS   MLL (FT-L)
nesterpr 54S1 C5                10      0.008
nesterpr 54S1 C5                150     0.008
mmoh00 54S1 i1 D2/LT            230     0.014
CNET 54S10 (long term tester)   300     0.011
nesterpr 54S1 C5                325     0.01
mmoh00 54S1 i1 D2/LT            450     0.014
jyqureshi 54V10 C5              610     0.018
Harrywood 54V10 Minolta T-1     780     0.013
CNET 54S10 (long term tester)   1012    0.017
gregmp 54G10 i1 D2/LT           1200    0.018
gregmp 54G10 i1 D2/LT           1400    0.018
dark662 54G10 i1 D2/LT          2631    0.024
the 54" sets start at the same ~0.008ft-L level as the 50, 46, 42 sets (not the 0.005ish level of the 58/65 sets) so there is not much reason to believe they won't behave the same...
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post #8492 of 10800
6/8/10 at 1:54pm
Hello everyone,

I have my Panasonic TH-42PX80 for ~10 months... good SD picture and fine colors but the biggest problem with this plasma to me is the crushed blacks/detail loss... and sometimes on 90% black screen in the dark room I feel that this "inky black" level is more like an LCD bright display.
But the very annoying is the poor detail in the dark scenes!

Has anyone noticed the same issue on this plasma set?
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post #8493 of 10800
6/8/10 at 5:03pm
Question - there's mention earlier in the thread that the "larger panels, 58 & 65," are not as affected as the "smaller panels, 50 and under." Is this just based on general sizing, or is there more to it? The reason I ask is that I'm considering the 54, which isn't mentioned as "larger" or "smaller."

If the effect of the raised MLL is just a gradual thing based on size then I can assume the 54 will be averagely affected...but that's not clear. Can someone clarify? Thx.
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post #8494 of 10800
6/8/10 at 5:04pm
are you serious? we just discussed the 54" sets literally two posts before yours!
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post #8495 of 10800
6/8/10 at 5:12pm
The 58 and 65 start out lower. They experience the same amount of rise, but not as high of a rise.

I would group the 54 with the 50. But, from my reading this thread, the 50 seems be more of a problem for whatever reason.

I have a 54V10 and still pleased with my set. I would buy the set again if I needed a TV. With that said, I don't watch the TV in a dark room which can really shape your opinion on how badly you think your set is affected. The rise is really noticed in dark settings.
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post #8496 of 10800
6/8/10 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by -jb- View Post

Question - there's mention earlier in the thread that the "larger panels, 58 & 65," are not as affected as the "smaller panels, 50 and under." Is this just based on general sizing, or is there more to it? The reason I ask is that I'm considering the 54, which isn't mentioned as "larger" or "smaller."

If the effect of the raised MLL is just a gradual thing based on size then I can assume the 54 will be averagely affected...but that's not clear. Can someone clarify? Thx.

The available data collated by batpig suggests that, not only do the larger panels start out lower, but the rise is more gradual. As to the cause, it could be anything from a Panny tweak, the physical properties of the larger pixels, or gremlins. We will probably never know. And until we get some more data for the larger panels, no hard conclusions can be drawn (we need a lot more data to be statistically valid). Of course, for every report of an MLL rise on a 58/65" set, there are several more for the smaller ones. And even those few for the 58/65 are not crying bloody murder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

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post #8497 of 10800
6/8/10 at 6:57pm
I went through much of this thread to search for info on the class action lawsuit but there doesn't seem to be much discussion about it. Has everyone here joined the lawsuit or have people just given up on the issue?
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post #8498 of 10800
6/8/10 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceo3west View Post

I went through much of this thread to search for info on the class action lawsuit but there doesn't seem to be much discussion about it. Has everyone here joined the lawsuit or have people just given up on the issue?

Whatever moron decided to go the legal route pretty much gave up for us. Now, Panny can hide behind the litigation ("no comment"), the lawyers get (more) rich, and the most we can hope for realistically is a $15 gift certificate good towards the future purchase of a Panasonic Product. I have written several letters to THX concerning the issue, but am not hopeful of a favorable outcome. What really sucks is that, with Pioneer's departure, the void left behind is ruled by Panasonic, Samsung, and Gold Star... meaning Panasonic is the closest thing we have to higher-end (IMO)...
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post #8499 of 10800
6/8/10 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by arfster View Post

It's not as significant as the full on/off contrast ratio drop, but stick an APL pattern on and you'll still see it drop from around 3000:1 out of the box, to 1500:1 fully risen. With ANSI the drop isn't so much, 1700:1 to maybe 1000:1, but ANSI is an unrealistic stress test.

That is what I normally do when I get home from work, I sit down with a beer, relax and watch my favourite APL pattern for a few hours.
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post #8500 of 10800
6/8/10 at 8:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

That is what I normally do when I get home from work, I sit down with a beer, relax and watch my favourite APL pattern for a few hours.

Harhar.

There's a reason it's called Average Picture Level: it has some similarity to a typical picture ..... with the same loss in contrast.
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post #8501 of 10800
6/8/10 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

actually there are seven 54" sets in the database, here is the 54" model data (sorted by hours):

Code:
NAME / MODEL / PROBE            HOURS   MLL (FT-L)
nesterpr 54S1 C5                10      0.008
nesterpr 54S1 C5                150     0.008
mmoh00 54S1 i1 D2/LT            230     0.014
CNET 54S10 (long term tester)   300     0.011
nesterpr 54S1 C5                325     0.01
mmoh00 54S1 i1 D2/LT            450     0.014
jyqureshi 54V10 C5              610     0.018
Harrywood 54V10 Minolta T-1     780     0.013
CNET 54S10 (long term tester)   1012    0.017
gregmp 54G10 i1 D2/LT           1200    0.018
gregmp 54G10 i1 D2/LT           1400    0.018
dark662 54G10 i1 D2/LT          2631    0.024
the 54" sets start at the same ~0.008ft-L level as the 50, 46, 42 sets (not the 0.005ish level of the 58/65 sets) so there is not much reason to believe they won't behave the same...

anyone report changes in the costco/sams versions (s14s)?
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post #8502 of 10800
6/9/10 at 9:11pm
Just passed 300 hours on my 50S10A and black level is now at 0.012ftL. Feel free to add me to the database

It's just enough to be noticeable, but not a huge problem. No problems with image retention or anything like that. APL black level is 0.014ftL for the person who was asking.
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post #8503 of 10800
6/10/10 at 4:34am
Rise number two for my 50" V10
I'll post my older photos again for comparison sake -

120 hours approx (OOTB level. ftl unknown as I didn't have a meter)



160 hours approx (0.011 ftl)



900 hours approx (0.016 ftl)



And averaged in swatched-form -

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post #8504 of 10800
6/10/10 at 5:19am
Hello Everyone,

I was in BB last night and the sales rep said Panasonic had a press release saying they fixed the black level rise in "new builds". I haven't found any collaborating evidence of this.

Has anyone seen this?
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post #8505 of 10800
6/10/10 at 9:31am
corroborating?

no, they never claimed to "fix" it... unsurprisingly, the BB salesman is not good with technical nuance. Panasonic's "claim" is that the voltage increase is now "more gradual" but they in no way claim that the black level will not rise:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10447329-1.html

Quote:
Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs deliver exceptional picture performance throughout the lifetime of these products. Various elements and material characteristics of all electronic displays change with use over time. In order to achieve the optimal picture performance throughout the life of the set, Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an automatic control which adjusts an internal driving voltage at predetermined intervals of operational hours.

As a result of this automatic voltage adjustment, background brightness will increase from its initial value. After several years of typical use, the internal material characteristics will stabilize and no additional automatic voltage adjustments are required. The Black Level at this stabilized point will yield excellent picture performance.

The newest Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an improved automatic control which applies the voltage adjustments in smaller increments. This results in a more gradual change in the Black Level over time.
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post #8506 of 10800
6/10/10 at 10:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

Rise number two for my 50" V10
I'll post my older photos again for comparison sake -

The comparison is going to be awesome to see when you hit full inflation Fahrenheit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-T View Post

Hello Everyone,

I was in BB last night and the sales rep said Panasonic had a press release saying they fixed the black level rise in "new builds". I haven't found any collaborating evidence of this.

Has anyone seen this?

D-Nice has just commented on it. For April (and later) 2010 build dates, it sounds like the rises start later, in smaller increments, and are spread over many thousands of hours. Doesn't sound like it's "fixed", just hidden a lot better and possibly dragged out so far most people will be getting rid of the set before they start reaching upper inflation levels.
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post #8507 of 10800
6/10/10 at 11:25am
One thing that I would like to know. Will the Blacks ever get better once the phosphors age ? Will the blacks come back into line ?

Also am I right in thinking that the vt20s have the more gradual voltage increase over a longer time ? and that the blacks wont rise ? with any luck
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post #8508 of 10800
6/10/10 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

The comparison is going to be awesome to see when you hit full inflation Fahrenheit.



D-Nice has just commented on it. For April (and later) 2010 build dates, it sounds like the rises start later, in smaller increments, and are spread over many thousands of hours. Doesn't sound like it's "fixed", just hidden a lot better and possibly dragged out so far most people will be getting rid of the set before they start reaching upper inflation levels.

I thought he or Cnet or somebody said all 2010 models have a more gradual voltage and black level rise?Now it is only April and after builds?

Okay I see Panasonic must have changed it again.I dont get it,they can keep changing it but not get it right.WTF?
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post #8509 of 10800
6/10/10 at 12:34pm
Is that april this year ? im guessing yes ? Have ordered a vt20 and waiting for it to come in. Should be next week. btw im over in the UK
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post #8510 of 10800
6/10/10 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

The comparison is going to be awesome to see when you hit full inflation Fahrenheit.



D-Nice has just commented on it. For April (and later) 2010 build dates, it sounds like the rises start later, in smaller increments, and are spread over many thousands of hours. Doesn't sound like it's "fixed", just hidden a lot better and possibly dragged out so far most people will be getting rid of the set before they start reaching upper inflation levels.

LOL figures that mine is a February build oh well........
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post #8511 of 10800
6/10/10 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

D-Nice has just commented on it. For April (and later) 2010 build dates, it sounds like the rises start later, in smaller increments, and are spread over many thousands of hours. Doesn't sound like it's "fixed", just hidden a lot better and possibly dragged out so far most people will be getting rid of the set before they start reaching upper inflation levels.


This is kind of stinks for those who bought the BB exclusive VT20 or the G20/25's that have build dates earlier than April.
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post #8512 of 10800
6/10/10 at 6:06pm
It's my opinion that Panasonic is probably capable of issuing a firmware update that could improve the behaviour of MLL rise on all models.

Alternatively, given the right service menu code, it is probably possible to fine tune the black level ourselves. imo this would be a much better solution.
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post #8513 of 10800
6/10/10 at 6:42pm
I have a 54inch G10, with a hair over 500 hours. Last night I watched "Wolfman" on Blu-ray, connected with HDMI to the PS3. I have a tough time putting into words what it is I'm seeing, but here goes. There are scenes where Emily Blunt has a black dress on, and it looks good-deep black. You will then see a scene where it is dark, but it is a scene that is not pitch black, but shadow detail, like a darkly lit room for example. These scenes is where everything falls apart. I usually use THX mode, or custom with Ortas' Offsets-which is pretty much exactly THX mode to my eyes. The shadow detail scenes appear very gray and you still don't really make any discernable shapes and objects, out it's just gray.

So I'm not sure if that is how it would look regardless of TV, or if it's rising blacks, or just what the film looks like. Also, if you had say a Pioneer 101, or 6020-would the film look different or that much better because of the superior Pioneer TV tech with black levels. Gladiator also showed this same kind of horrible gray shadow detail.
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post #8514 of 10800
6/10/10 at 6:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

I have a 54inch G10, with a hair over 500 hours. Last night I watched "Wolfman" on Blu-ray, connected with HDMI to the PS3. I have a tough time putting into words what it is I'm seeing, but here goes. There are scenes where Emily Blunt has a black dress on, and it looks good-deep black. You will then see a scene where it is dark, but it is a scene that is not pitch black, but shadow detail, like a darkly lit room for example. These scenes is where everything falls apart. I usually use THX mode, or custom with Ortas' Offsets-which is pretty much exactly THX mode to my eyes. The shadow detail scenes appear very gray and you still don't really make any discernable shapes and objects, out it's just gray.

So I'm not sure if that is how it would look regardless of TV, or if it's rising blacks, or just what the film looks like. Also, if you had say a Pioneer 101, or 6020-would the film look different or that much better because of the superior Pioneer TV tech with black levels. Gladiator also showed this same kind of horrible gray shadow detail.

I'ts hard to say. I do think the transfer on some of these movies are the culprit in what you are describing, but I'm sure someone else with much more knowledge of this could really answer this.

Did you notice this before the 500 hour mark?
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post #8515 of 10800
6/10/10 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

I'ts hard to say. I do think the transfer on some of these movies are the culprit in what you are describing, but I'm sure someone else with much more knowledge of this could really answer this.

Did you notice this before the 500 hour mark?

Yeah.
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post #8516 of 10800
6/10/10 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

Yeah.

Then I don't think what you're seeing is caused by the black level rise.
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post #8517 of 10800
6/10/10 at 9:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

Whatever moron decided to go the legal route pretty much gave up for us. Now, Panny can hide behind the litigation ("no comment"), the lawyers get (more) rich, and the most we can hope for realistically is a $15 gift certificate good towards the future purchase of a Panasonic Product.

I call Shenanigans. I think the class action lawsuit was secretly initiated by Panasonic themselves to give them an excuse to hide behind the litigation. Have any of the affected Panasonic owners been contacted by the law firm that filed the suit? I haven't. A while back i tried to see how someone gets in on the lawsuit but couldn't find any info on it. I want my five dollar gift certificate dammit

When asked about the (black level rising) test, Panasonic issued the following statement to CNET:

"Unfortunately, after our discussions about providing you with further information, a lawsuit regarding this issue was filed. While we believe that the lawsuit is baseless, since this is now a matter in litigation, Panasonic company policy prohibits us from responding to your questions."

My, how convenient that was
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post #8518 of 10800
6/11/10 at 4:59am
Randy,

Did the blacke levels rise on your set? Is it that notcible?
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post #8519 of 10800
6/11/10 at 6:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

Randy, Did the black levels rise on your set?

Of course they have. It's a G10 !

Quote:


Is it that noticeable?

Yup. But i really only notice it at night in a completely dark room while watching a dark movie, but i rarely ever do this. If i turn on a lamp in the room it magically becomes much less apparent (a trick i learned here). The other 99% of the time it's not an issue for me and the TV looks great.
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post #8520 of 10800
6/11/10 at 7:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

D-Nice has just commented on it. For April (and later) 2010 build dates, it sounds like the rises start later, in smaller increments, and are spread over many thousands of hours. Doesn't sound like it's "fixed", just hidden a lot better and possibly dragged out so far most people will be getting rid of the set before they start reaching upper inflation levels.

I have an April 2010 build and hadn't noticed and change to the levels after a few hundred hours, I guess this is why. Then again, I almost never watch in a pitch dark room.

It begs the question that if they can start the rises later and spread them out over a much longer period of time, how necessary are they to begin with?
Oh well, with the implicit implication that a further evolution of this is the planned "fix" that will be in the 2011 displays I don't feel nearly as bad for grabbing a G25, although if the 2011 reviews are very positive it might develop a "symptom" and need to be replaced under warranty
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