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Which 3D format do you think the BDA will pick for Blu-ray?

post #1 of 275
8/1/09 at 9:00pm
Thread Starter 
The BDA formed a 3D task force in May 2009 to choose a 3D format for Blu-ray. The three main 3D formats I have heard about are the Dolby 3D format, the Sensio 3D format, and the Panasonic 3D format. Here is an article on the the Dolby 3D format. Here is an article and press release on the Sensio 3D format. Here is an an article, another article, and a document on the Panasonic 3D format. Based on what I have read here are the pros and cons:

Dolby 3D format
Pros: Excluding 3D displays is compatible with all current CE equipment (AV receivers, Blu-ray players, HDMI extenders/switchers, video processors, etc...) and may be compatible with current 3D displays from certain companies (such as Mitsubishi and Samsung)
Cons: Takes 100% more capacity on Blu-ray (since it requires separate 2D and 3D encodings) and has half the horizontal resolution for 3D video

Sensio 3D format
Pros: Excluding 3D displays is compatible with all current CE equipment (AV receivers, Blu-ray players, HDMI extenders/switchers, video processors, etc...) and the first 3D displays with Sensio 3D decoding are being released by Hyundai this year
Cons: Takes 100% more capacity on Blu-ray (since it requires separate 2D and 3D encodings) and has more than half horizontal resolution for 3D video by encoding the horizontal information in "features the consumer would not normally see"

Panasonic 3D format
Pros: Takes 50% more capacity for the 3D video on Blu-ray (uses video channel differential encoding) and has full resolution 3D video
Cons: The 3D video would not be compatible with current CE equipment
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post #2 of 275
8/1/09 at 9:22pm
Whichever can decode 1080p60 stereo.
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post #3 of 275
8/1/09 at 10:51pm
It must work 100% with older players to play the movie in 2D.

Any solution that fails on this, cant be selected.
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post #4 of 275
8/2/09 at 2:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

It must work 100% with older players to play the movie in 2D.

A seperate 2D encoding would be required for the Dolby and Sensio 3D formats while I believe that the Panasonic 3D format has a compliant 2D video stream that can be decoded with current Blu-ray players.
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post #5 of 275
8/2/09 at 10:51am
It could be that none of them were good enough so the BDA decided to design their own
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post #6 of 275
8/3/09 at 12:07pm
The Panasonic 3D system because:

1. It is the only 3D system to offer "Full HD" with the highest PQ of all 3D-HD delivery systems which is a major marketing point of BD.

2. Uses the least amount of storage.

3. Panasonic is the leading patent holder of BD and sits on the Board of Diirectors of the BDA.
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post #7 of 275
8/3/09 at 1:47pm
Thread Starter 
Keith, I notice you selected "Other 3D format" and which 3D format do you think the BDA will pick for Blu-ray?
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post #8 of 275
8/4/09 at 9:32am
Well certainly we will see two discs for each film so the increased capacity isn't important ,correct ?

Art
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post #9 of 275
8/4/09 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Well certainly we will see two discs for each film so the increaed capacity isn't important ,correct ?

Art

Max bitrate takes a dive...
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post #10 of 275
8/4/09 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Keith, I notice you selected "Other 3D format" and which 3D format do you think the BDA will pick for Blu-ray?

My problem is that instead of three generic descriptions of the three 3D technologies, specific solutions could only be selected.
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post #11 of 275
8/4/09 at 3:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

My problem is that instead of three generic descriptions of the three 3D technologies, specific solutions could only be selected.

Do you think the 3d Blu-ray format will be able to decode 1080p60 stereoscopic? And 1080p48 stereoscopic too?
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post #12 of 275
8/4/09 at 6:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

My problem is that instead of three generic descriptions of the three 3D technologies, specific solutions could only be selected.

In terms of the three 3D formats mentioned which is closest in design to what you think the BDA will pick for Blu-ray?
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post #13 of 275
8/4/09 at 7:09pm
seems to me that whatever it is will have to be compatible with current equipment--having a blu ray without compatible tv or vice versa wont work for sales i dont think and buying both at once is a lot for most people.
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post #14 of 275
8/5/09 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

seems to me that whatever it is will have to be compatible with current equipment--having a blu ray without compatible tv or vice versa wont work for sales i dont think and buying both at once is a lot for most people.

They have to zero in on the users who already have at least the basics for 3D in hand. There is no way they will propose a standard that doesn't include those potentially, "ready" customers. It's got to be users with the 3d ready sets and BD players. That's the audience that will get the ball moving. I don't think the new standard will hinge on a new HDMI standard either. If it doesn't have full color, contrast and resolution then they can count me out.

I just got back from seeing G Force 3D. I took my grand daughter and great grand daughter and a cousin. It was their first 3D movie and they really enjoyed G Force and the 3D presentation. You can say I'm being an ambassador for 3D.
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post #15 of 275
8/5/09 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

In terms of the three 3D formats mentioned which is closest in design to what you think the BDA will pick for Blu-ray?

The goal of BD format is to be able to support high video quality, so I would not expect any 3D solution that uses reduced resolution to be adopted.
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post #16 of 275
8/5/09 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

The goal of BD format is to be able to support high video quality, so I would not expect any 3D solution that uses reduced resolution to be adopted.

Keith, it is assumed that Sigma is a voting BDA member so I hope that it can be conveyed to the BDA that some (many/majority?) of us BD users are not interested in a reduced resolution 3D format.
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post #17 of 275
8/5/09 at 12:04pm
And please convey to the BDA that James Cameron would like to shoot at 48fps stereoscopic at full res, and that many other film makers want 1080p60 and full res 60p is also part of the Digital Cinema specification.

http://www.imago.org/index.php?new=76

Quote:
Additional Frame Rates Standardized by SMPTE

The SMPTE has recently published a new standard called "Additional Frame Rates for D-Cinema". This standard defines the digital cinema projection speeds of 25, 30, 50 and 60 frames per second as possible additional projection frame rates inside the DC28 / 21DC framework (JPEG 2000), in addition to the speeds of 24 and 48 fps that were already defined....

Movies shot and shown at 60 fps will be virtually free of stroboscopic artefacts and will allow new developments in cinematographic language, since it will allow movements (both camera and/or action) that can not be rendered with 24 or 25 fps projection
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post #18 of 275
8/5/09 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Keith, it is assumed that Sigma is a voting BDA member so I hope that it can be conveyed to the BDA that some (many/majority?) of us BD users are not interested in a reduced resolution 3D format.

It has to be full resolution or I won't be interested.
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post #19 of 275
8/5/09 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbug View Post

They have to zero in on the users who already have at least the basics for 3D in hand. There is no way they will propose a standard that doesn't include those potentially, "ready" customers. It's got to be users with the 3d ready sets and BD players. That's the audience that will get the ball moving. I don't think the new standard will hinge on a new HDMI standard either. If it doesn't have full color, contrast and resolution then they can count me out.

I just got back from seeing G Force 3D. I took my grand daughter and great grand daughter and a cousin. It was their first 3D movie and they really enjoyed G Force and the 3D presentation. You can say I'm being an ambassador for 3D.

ok but how many truly 3d ready blu ray players are there--there are some dlp/lcd sets but that depends on the finalized format as to whether they would be compatible or not--thats what I am getting at. im not talking about the glasses type of 3d either--im referring to the real thing in full resolution...
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post #20 of 275
8/6/09 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

ok but how many truly 3d ready blu ray players are there--there are some dlp/lcd sets but that depends on the finalized format as to whether they would be compatible or not--thats what I am getting at. im not talking about the glasses type of 3d either--im referring to the real thing in full resolution...

None of course but (he,he) I got my hand out for a PS3 firmware update which some predict will happen.
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post #21 of 275
8/24/09 at 10:52pm
This Variety article that came out today is talking specifically about a BR player solution. Geez I hope we don't have to go out and by some 'special' Panasonic player just to utilise stereoscopic in our HT's. I would be pretty annoyed if I ended up wanting to replace or add another player alongside my Pioneer 09FD as soon as some time like the 1st quarter of next year. I love 3D, so I know I'm going to want it when Avatar comes out.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...&cs=1&nid=2248
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post #22 of 275
8/24/09 at 11:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post

Geez I hope we don't have to go out and by some 'special' Panasonic player just to utilise stereoscopic in our HT's.

3D Blu-ray players most likely will be released next year but if Panasonic's 3D method is chosen by the BDA they would be released by several CE companies.
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post #23 of 275
8/24/09 at 11:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

3D Blu-ray players most likely will be released next year but if Panasonic's 3D method is chosen by the BDA they would be released by several CE companies.

Ahh yeah, that's all in the article. It actually indicates that there will be "3-D Blu-ray players from various manufacturers" released next year. It also separately mentions that Panasonic's Full HD 3D system will likely launch before Avatar comes to BR.
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post #24 of 275
8/25/09 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post

This Variety article that came out today is talking specifically about a BR player solution. Geez I hope we don't have to go out and by some 'special' Panasonic player just to utilise stereoscopic in our HT's. I would be pretty annoyed if I ended up wanting to replace or add another player alongside my Pioneer 09FD as soon as some time like the 1st quarter of next year. I love 3D, so I know I'm going to want it when Avatar comes out.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...&cs=1&nid=2248

3D Junkie here also. There are still a lot of questions to be answered such as is Panasonic jumping the gun on the BD committee's not yet announced standard decision and a yes or no from Sony on whether the PS3 will get a firmware update as rumored (one person said it's official but I havent' seen an announcement) that will allow the PS3 to do 3D.
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post #25 of 275
8/25/09 at 10:54am
Here's some more;
Panasonic Ushers In The 3D HDTV Era—Will Ship 3D Displays & 3D Blu-ray Players in 2010
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post #26 of 275
8/25/09 at 11:21am
Richard Paul:

You remember this Panasonic PDF on their 3D system:

http://www.nabanet.com/nabaweb/docum...P1_PFannon.pdf

Does this PDF on their UniPher SoC tell you anythiing about how they will accomplish 3D on BD?

http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/off...n071010-3.html
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post #27 of 275
8/25/09 at 5:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Richard Paul:

You remember this Panasonic PDF on their 3D system:

http://www.nabanet.com/nabaweb/docum...P1_PFannon.pdf

Does this PDF on their UniPher SoC tell you anythiing about how they will accomplish 3D on BD?

http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/off...n071010-3.html

The article on the UniPhier SoC is from October of 2007 and when they refer to "simultaneously processing two large screens of high picture quality and full-HD" I think that they are referring to PiP decoding since that was one of the features Panasonic was promoting at the time. I haven't heard much about the Panasonic 3D method in terms of details but from what I have heard the Panasonic 3D method is based on the Multiview Video Coding (MVC) extension to MPEG-4 AVC. Keith has mentioned that MPEG-4 AVC MVC video will be backward compatible with current MPEG-4 AVC decoders for 2D presentation.
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post #28 of 275
9/3/09 at 9:29am
How likely do you all think a firmware update would be all the PS3 would need to be able to deal with whatever new format they choose? I'm a bit of a 3D nut and have been waiting to see how Blu Ray was going to implement 3D before getting BD player. I'd snag a PS3 with the new price cut if there was a good chance it would keep up with the changes.
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post #29 of 275
9/3/09 at 9:40am
Also:
The Panasonic format seems best as long as you can get the 48 full frames per second to fit on the disc. How much space does a typical 2ish hour movie take? Is there extra space on the disc without having to sacrifice? Will the spec need to also support tri-layer-75 GB discs or quad-layer 100 GB discs? Seems like you might as well, as long as you're breaking the mold and need new players.

As far as the 2D version goes, I assume that can just be on a different disc much the way they often do anaglyphic movies today.
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post #30 of 275
9/3/09 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

How likely do you all think a firmware update would be all the PS3 would need to be able to deal with whatever new format they choose? I'm a bit of a 3D nut and have been waiting to see how Blu Ray was going to implement 3D before getting BD player. I'd snag a PS3 with the new price cut if there was a good chance it would keep up with the changes.

Quote:
Stringer also promised that the PlayStation 3 would be upgraded to support 3D playback of BD discs during 2010. Indeed, the Sony chief made a point of highlighting the 3D potential of future PS3 games, showing clips from Motorstorm Pacific Rift and Grand Turismo in the format.

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/blog...rvice+03+09+09
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