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# Which 3D format do you think the BDA will pick for Blu-ray? - Page 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

I just did! Here it is again:

24 X 5 = 120 then divided by 2 = 60. The "divided by 2 = 60" are the glasses.

How many times per second will the shutter glasses let the left eye see what is on the TV? Is it 60?

If the shutter glasses let the left eye see an image of what is on the TV 60 times per second, when the movie is actually 24p, isn't that similar to me watching a 2D 24p movie on a 60hz TV (except that there won't be shutter glasses blanking the picture)?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs

How many times per second will the shutter glasses let the left eye see what is on the TV? Is it 60?

Yes - 60 per eye. half of the 120 total.

the movie is no longer 24P. It is now 120P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Yes - 60 per eye. half of the 120 total.

Right. So the left eye sees an image on the TV 60 times per second.

The movie is 24 frames per second. How will the left eye see each frame from the 24p movie an equal length of time to avoid pull-down judder?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs

Right. So the left eye sees an image on the TV 60 times per second.

The movie is 24 frames per second. How will the left eye see each frame from the 24p movie an equal length of time to avoid pull-down judder?

The movie WAS 24P. Now it is 120P. A 3D display does the same thing that a 2D display does. Applies the 5 X multiplier. That avoids the need for the 3:2 pulldown.

But instead of showing the images at 120P which a 2D display does - it syncs up with the shutter glasses showing alternating frames at 60 FPS per eye.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

The movie WAS 24P. Now it is 120P. A 3D display does the same thing that a 2D display does. Applies the 5 X multiplier. That avoids the need for the 3:2 pulldown.

But instead of showing the images at 120P which a 2D display does - it syncs up with the shutter glasses showing alternating frames at 60 FPS per eye.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post15704792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Judder will be reintroduced into 3D films using a 120 Hz VRR.

As I understand it - 2 streams, each 24P. Then apply 3:2 pulldown to get them to 60P.

The 240 Hz displays would not have this issue IF the streams were sent as raw 24P signals - then apply 5:5 frame multiplication to each 120 Hz stream.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post15704792

I made that post a while ago - long before the Panasonic information about them also having a 24P mode hit the internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

No Joe - the images are coming off the BD player at 24P.

The picture and link only talk about 1080i60 original from what I saw (although I could have missed it). For 24P film are you saying that the player outputs 24P total with left and right separate (12P for the left eye and 12P for the right eye), 48P total with left and right separate (24P for the left eye and 24P for the right eye), or something else? Somehow the player has to send out information for the left eye and information for the right eye. In short, what is the P rate that you are saying the player sends out for the left eye and is that information sent in a different frame than the information for the right eye?

--Darin
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13

a.) 2 frames = 2Hz = 1 3d frame sequential frame
b.) 48 frames = 48Hz = 24 3d frame sequential frames = 24p video
c.) 120/48 = 2.5 = 3:2 pulldown

Lee Stewart,

In order to bring about some conclusion you must either agree or disagree with points a, b, an c above.
If not then list the letter you don't agree on and say why.

Joe Blogs,

when Lee Stewart gives his answer, use the method I gave Lee to argue his point.
That way everybody is on the same page and nobody gets confused.

I already gave my answer. here it is for the last time:

24 X 5 = 120 then divided by 2 = 60. The "divided by 2 = 60" are the glasses.

There is no 48 anything.

Joe started this whole confusion when he started on his 48 FPS nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2

The picture and link only talk about 1080i60 original from what I saw (although I could have missed it). For 24P film are you saying that the player outputs 24P total with left and right separate (12P for the left eye and 12P for the right eye), 48P total with left and right separate (24P for the left eye and 24P for the right eye), or something else? Somehow the player has to send out information for the left eye and information for the right eye. In short, what is the P rate that you are saying the player sends out for the left eye and is that information sent in a different frame than the information for the right eye?

--Darin

Once again - the description:

Quote:

And, in fact, the technologies proposed by Panasonic for 3D imagery storage, transfer, etc, all utilize existing standard technology. Image encoding uses the two-channel encoding function implemented in Moving Picture Coding Experts Group Phase 4 Advanced Video Coding (MPEG-4 AVC) H.264. The second channel stores only the data different from channel one, holding the increase in data volume to about 1.5 times. The HDMI standard is used to transfer data from the player to the television, with left- and right-eye images alternated in single-field (single-frame) units. “All we have to do is define a flag to identify image data, equipment and other elements supporting 3D imagery. We really don’t need any other major changes,” explained Hiroshi Miyai, director, High Quality AV Development Center of Panasonic

The link with the updated info that identified that there was also going to be 24P in addition to 60i:

http://www.nabanet.com/nabaweb/docum...P1_PFannon.pdf

http://www.panasonic.com/3D/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

The link with the updated info that identified that there was also going to be 24P in addition to 60i:

http://www.nabanet.com/nabaweb/docum...P1_PFannon.pdf

Okay, from that it looks like the player sends out 48 frames per second by sending 24P times 2 channels. If a person closes one eye how many frames will they see per second and will every frame be shown the exact same number of times? If your claim is 60 frames per second per eye and yes, then how?

We may need to break this down by codes, like L1, L2, L3, and R1, R2, R3, for each frame. How about just mapping 1/6th of a second, which at 60 frames per second for the left eye would be 10 frames at the display side, but only 4 frames in the original movie. Looks to me like the left eye might see:

L1, L1, L2, L2, L2, L3, L3, L4, L4, L4

or

L1, L1, L1, L2, L2, L3, L3, L3, L4, L4

Do you think the left eye would see something different than that for 24P original?

For the above the total output from the display might be (for 1/6th of a second):

L1, R1, L1, R1, L2, R2, L2, R2, L2, R2, L3, R3, L3, R3, L4, R4, L4, R4, L4, R4

--Darin
And to be clear, are the glasses changing at 60 times per second, or 120 times per second?

At the Panasonic demo I attended at CEDIA the guy told us that the glasses were 50Hz.

--Darin
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2

Okay, from that it looks like the player sends out 48 frames per second by sending 24P times 2 channels. If a person closes one eye how many frames will they see per second and will every frame be shown the exact same number of times? If your claim is 60 frames per second per eye and yes, then how?

We may need to break this down by codes, like L1, L2, L3, and R1, R2, R3, for each frame. How about just mapping 1/6th of a second, which at 60 frames per second for the left eye would be 10 frames at the display side, but only 4 frames in the original movie. Looks to me like the left eye might see:

L1, L1, L2, L2, L2, L3, L3, L4, L4, L4

or

L1, L1, L1, L2, L2, L3, L3, L3, L4, L4

Do you think the left eye would see something different than that for 24P original?

For the above the total output from the display might be (for 1/6th of a second):

L1, R1, L1, R1, L2, R2, L2, R2, L2, R2, L3, R3, L3, R3, L4, R4, L4, R4, L4, R4

--Darin

That 2 channel notation is really throwing everyone off. Here it is again:

Quote:

The HDMI standard is used to transfer data from the player to the television, with left- and right-eye images alternated in single-field (single-frame) units.

The frames are coming out of the player at 24 FPS. Not 24 x 2 - just 24 FPS.

Then they hit the display which multiplies them to 120 FPS, then sends them out as alternating frames at 60 FPS per eye which matches the shutter glasses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13

a.) 2 frames = 2Hz = 1 3d frame sequential frame
b.) 48 frames = 48Hz = 24 3d frame sequential frames = 24p video
c.) 120/48 = 2.5 = 3:2 pulldown

Lee Stewart,

In order to bring about some conclusion you must either agree or disagree with points a, b, an c above.
If not then list the letter you don't agree on and say why.

Joe Blogs,

when Lee Stewart gives his answer, use the method I gave Lee to argue his point.
That way everybody is on the same page and nobody gets confused.

Look at the picture:

Source: page 5

It shows the left frame, then the right frame.
It does not show 3 right frames, then three left frames.

If it shows more than 1 frame being used per side before showing the other side then Lee Steward is right, but they show a single frame being used each side in sequence.
Therefore Lee Steward is wrong and if he said a.) was wrong this was incorrect.

If you think Panasonic does not make frames like in the picture then watch the video and it will show you they do: link
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2

And to be clear, are the glasses changing at 60 times per second, or 120 times per second?

At the Panasonic demo I attended at CEDIA the guy told us that the glasses were 50Hz.

--Darin

The glasses have to match the refresh rate of the display. the display is 120 Hz which is showing alternating images at 60 FPS per eye. The glasses are also 120 Hz - at 60 frames per eye.

50 Hz?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13

Look at the picture:

Source: page 5

It shows the left frame, then the right frame.
It does not show 3 right frames, then three left frames.

If it shows more than 1 frame being used per side before showing the other side then Lee Steward is right, but they show a single frame being used each side in sequence.
Therefore Lee Steward is wrong and if he said a.) was wrong this was incorrect.

If you think Panasonic does not make frames like in the picture then watch the video and it will show you they do: link

It was right in the video! You saw it.

The display is holding the frames at 120 total per second. Then it actually displays them at 60 frames per second per eye for the glasses. At approx 3:01 minutes into the video.

It is getting the frames at 24 FPS then 5X to get to the 120.

There is NO 3:2 pulldown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13

My reply in post #169 proves a.) is correct, therefore b.) and c.) is correct also.

Do you wish to argue this point Lee Steward?

It's Stewart.

There is no 48 FPS.

There is no 3:2 pulldown.
Hehehe . . .

Found the answer to my question that I asked 3 pages ago:

Quote:

Panasonic is not planning to standardize the techniques for displaying 3D imagery. At CEATEC Japan 2008, the company exhibited a 103-inch plasma display panel (PDP) television displaying 3D pictures (see Fig). It featured dual drive integrated circuits (IC) to achieve a high 120 frames/s, and modified phosphors to shorten plasma emission rise/fall times.

I wanted to know why they were using modified phosphors . . .

"and most had long phosphor persistence which produces a lot of stereoscopic crosstalk."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

It was right in the video! You saw it.

The display is holding the frames at 120 total per second. Then it actually displays them at 60 frames per second per eye for the glasses. At approx 3:01 minutes into the video.

It is getting the frames at 24 FPS then 5X to get to the 120.

There is NO 3:2 pulldown.

This is frame capture from video.

I'm not sure how it goes without hearing your opinion.
Look at the picture and tell me what you see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13

This is frame capture from video.

I'm not sure how it goes without hearing your opinion.
Look at the picture and tell me what you see.

Is that video showing movie frames or video frames?

Video frames are 60 per second. 60i is deinterlaced to 60P

When the BD player is outputing 24P using alternating L & R frames - then it is 12 FPS per eye. The 3DTV then does it's 5X to get them first to 60 FPS per eye - then displays them at 120 FPS alternating frames.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Is that video showing movie frames or video frames?

Video frames are 60 per second. 60i is deinterlaced to 60P

When the BD player is outputing 24P using alternating L & R frames - then it is 12 FPS per eye. The 3DTV then does it's 5X to get them first to 60 FPS per eye - then displays them at 120 FPS alternating frames.

12 FPS per eye This is shocking! The Panasonic 3D system isn't showing all 24 frames of the original 24fps movie but dropping half of them! I hope not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs

12 FPS per eye This is shocking. The Panasonic 3D system isn't showing all 24 frames of the original 24fps movie but dropping half of them! I hope not.

It isn't dropping anything. It is still outputing at 24 FPS - It is running the frame rate at half speed which is really normal speed only there are alternating frames instead of consecutive frames..
The Panasonic promo video said that their 3d blu ray system was the same as the one used in theaters.
That is to say theirs is the same as Dolby Digital 3d Cinema.
And I have a pdf explaining Dolby Digital 3d Cinema: link

Read the pdf and see how they do it and it may prove Lee Stewart right or wrong. I will read it after.
Do you really believe the BDA is going to approve a 3D system for BD that takes a giant step backwards - using 3:2 pulldown?

You must. You are defending it with all kinds of arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Is that video showing movie frames or video frames?

They say "Theater Quality" right before showing that picture you quoted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13

The Panasonic promo video said that their 3d blu ray system was the same as the one used in theaters.
That is to say theirs is the same as Dolby Digital 3d Cinema.
And I have a pdf explaining Dolby Digital 3d Cinema: link

Read the pdf and see how they do it and it may prove Lee Stewart right or wrong. I will read it after.

HERE is the Dolby 3d system PDF:

http://www.edcf.net/edcf_docs/dolby-3d.pdf

Quote:

Dolby also considered it essential that the glasses be ‘passive’, to avoid any need to recharge units or to deal with customers complaining of glasses that don’t work.

Does that look the same to you? It doesn't to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Do you really believe the BDA is going to approve a 3D system for BD that takes a giant step backwards - using 3:2 pulldown?

You must. You are defending it with all kinds of arguments.

I'd much rather have 3:2 pull-down judder (even though I don't want pull-down judder) than a system that was 12 FPS per eye - A system that was 12 fps per eye would most likely judder/strobe a lot more than 24 fps with pull-down judder.

Also if you had a 240hz display you wouldn't have the 3:2 pull-down judder with stereoscopic 3D content using the shutter glasses method.

And aren't there other display technologies like polarization? Doesn't a TV using that show both images at the same time or something so you wouldn't need twice the refresh rate if you had one of these TVs - or have I got that wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs

I'd much rather have 3:2 pull-down judder than a system that was 12 FPS per eye.

It is not 12 FPS per eye - it is 60 frames per eye.

Quote:

Also if you had a 240hz display you wouldn't have the 3:2 pull-down judder with stereoscopic 3D content using the shutter glasses method.

Each CEM is free to do whatever they want as far as the display - as long as it accepts the 3D BD standard data stream.

Quote:

And aren't there other display technologies like polarization? Doesn't a TV using that show both images at the same time or something so you wouldn't need twice the refresh rate if you had one of these TVs - or have I got that wrong?

There are many different kinds of 3D formats. We are talking about the 3D standard for BD which will be alternating frames which means active shutter glasses. It's what IMAX 3D used to use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

It is not 12 FPS per eye - it is 60 frames per eye.

I too think the Panasonic 3D system can't be 12fps per eye, I'm sure they would have told us if it was. But your previous post seemed to be saying it was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

When the BD player is outputing 24P using alternating L & R frames - then it is 12 FPS per eye
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs

I too think the Panasonic 3D system can't be 12fps per eye, I'm sure they would have told us if it was. But your previous post seemed to be saying it was:

What are the frame rate outputs for 1080, for a normal 2D BD player? Are they 24P and 60i?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

What are the frame rates for 1080, for a normal 2D BD player? Are they 24P and 60i?

They are 24p, 50i and 60i where I come from. By that I mean the players can decode 24p, 50i and 60i 1920x1080 content. The player might output a signal at 1080p24, 1080p50 or 1080p60 (or interlaced if you set it to).
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