Theta Digital Bluray player. - Page 6

Then all surround processors are failures it that is the standard. The Six Shooter and a good transport is better than any I have heard. It's always been that way. Analog pre-amp and dedicated player beat a surround processor. Does not matter it it's the one Theta makes or some other company's. Expecting Theta's upgrade to do this would be expecting Theta to redefine the last 10 or 15 years of the way surround processors have fared against good analog pre-amps.

Not with the the current processor. What are you doing right now? Two Six shooters? You can do lossless with an external signal processor like, the Circle Surround or Parasound EX expander if you can still find one. As you likely remember those were invented when pre-pros which were only 5.1 need ot add the rear EX channel when dolby ex came to market. You can use one to get an extra channel that is then output to one or two rear speakers. It is not as good as DD PLIIx but still good.

2 channel performance over S/DIF using an Xtreme card relative to an Oppo SE obviously has nothing to do with whether or not HDMI is a failure because you don't need HDMI to make this comparison.

For what it is worth, here is my take on the 2 channel question. I compared the Sony XA5400ES 2 channel through the six shooter with a Compli S/PDIF through the Xtreme cards. The Xtreme cards won. According to Kal Rubinson is his latest column, the Sony is the price performance category leader for 2-channel analog, at least at par with the Oppo SE. I provisionaly conclude the Xtreme cards probably still beat the Oppe SE. Norm will soon provide an addition datapoint by comparing an Oppo SE Nuforce over SS with a digital transport over Xtreme cards, we'll see.

To beat the CBIII + Xtreme card and a decent digital transport on two channel, you probably need to spend a few grand (according to Steve, the PWT + PWD combo will do the trick). Anyone that has found a sub 2K CD player that sounds better analog through the SS than digital through the Xtreme cards please speak up!

In economic terms, on the basis of 2 channel performance, at current street prices the CBIII + Xtreme card (currently one listed on A'gon for $4000), is still a competitive DAC + Preamp. For full retail it has been left in the dust by technological progress and better 2 channel can be had for less than $5,000.

Multi channel performance and whether HDMI will be a failure or not is a different discussion altogether.

Ironically, the bar has been set higher for Theta than others SSP manufacturers to not be a failure in terms of SQ.

First, since a six shooter improves SQ compared to an analog bypass build in other SSP's (say classe or anthem), Theta's HDMI implementation has to be better than that of others to be at par with their analog option.

Second, a major reason many people like the HDMI option on their high end processor is because it gives access to room correction. Since Theta won't have this, their HDMI implementation has to be a better than say Classe, Halcro, Anthem and Meridan to offset the "room correction deficit", purely on the merits of sound quality of the Theta.

As a result, Theta will have to pull a very big HDMI rabbit out of the hat to be a success in terms of sound quality. They may still pull this off, but especially considering they appear not to be implementing ARC or a (HATS or DenonLink type) proprietary equivalent to deal with Jitter issues, this would go down as one of the more significant achievements in audio engineering of the decade.

I disagree. I haven't heard a $1300 CD player through a good, similarly priced preamp or the SS that sounds better than 2ch via the Extreme cards. I confused the issue by tying this to the HDMI upgrade, though Theta should, at a minimum, handle HDMI in a way the music sounds as good over it as optical or coax. Part of the raison d'etre of the upper end processors is the notion of one box; perhaps not state of the art 2 ch., but close.


Yep, and agreed, though I think 'left in the dust' is too strong.

An aside: It's not clear to me that Theta does any special processing of movie codecs as does Lexicon, or Meridian who writes their own code. That means that SQ gains vs. other processors falls to (perhaps) better DACs/analog output sections, better volume circuitry, and more comprehensive xover options. For me though, soundtracks are a bit of a leveler anyway -- they are highly processed and sound little better on a good mid-priced processor (ADA forex.) vs. a high end processor.

Actually I was talking about the new Audio Processors

Left in the dust may be a too strong considering that no one would spend 15,000 on a CBIII with one XTreme card to use it for 2 channel only. In fact, I was shocked at how good the Xtreme cards are, and if only Theta can find a way to feed them clean high rez audio bits over HDMI they may yet deliver a the best HDMI SSP on the market.

However, if the PWT + PWD beats the 13,500 Gen Viii DAC as some people on this forum suggest, then Theta has indeed been left in the dust by technological progress (at MSRP that is!). However, at the 30%-40% of MSRP that Theta gear is currently selling for I think it is excellent value and a used Six Shooter for $1,000 is an absolute killer deal, considering what the SS does to sound quality.

I was surprised too by how good the Extreme DACs are which is why I sold my Meridian G68 processor. I like the Theta via Extremes much better for music. It's the only reason I've hung around so long for the update.

Doesn't seem like Theta has the engineering horsepower at moment to stay current on the digital front, but I haven't heard the new Gen VIII.

Norm, have you had a chance to do some comparisons yet? Reason I'm asking is I am consolidating source components and sold my Compli and my Sony XA5400. I now want to buy a new Universal player and then sell my Pioneer BDP-09, so I'd be down to a single player.

If you are finding the Oppo NUforce is as good as the Pioneer 09 for Blu Ray audio (concert discs), and the Theta Compli for MC SACD I would consider getting it. If it is not, I would consider getting the Marantz UD9004 instead. 2 channel is not a factor, because I am planning to heed your advise and get the PS Audio Music server once they release the bridge and lens. Want to pull the trigger on a universal this week though.

Funny that you should mention the Marantz UD9004. When I auditioned the Classe SSP-800 it had the Marantz being used as the source unit. I ended up buying the SSP-800! Yes the Classe does sound pretty darn good in 2 channel performance. It's the best sounding processor I've owned and this is my third one after owning B&K and Denon! It's the first time that a pre/pro had me tapping my foot when I listen to music. I am a former Theta owner Pro Basic IIIa and Theta Pearl. I always loved the sound they produced. I just hope that Theta can remain solvent long enough to make a comeback? I just have never agreed on the price they charge for the Extreme cards! I understand it's market driven but come on with the economy struggling still.

In your SSP-800 audition I presume you used the Marantz as a digital HDMI transport then, which seems a bit of overkill. Considering it appears the Marantz has a full blown DSP build in with bass management flexibility close to equal to the CBIII, you need to use its analog outputs to do it justice. I am heavily leaning towards getting a UD9004 and use it with the six shooter. I would still keep my CBIII HDMI upgradeable but only do the upgrade if the general consensus is it sounds better than the UD9004 + SS combo. If it does not I'll sell my Xtreme cards.

I am in the final due diligence phase of getting an UD9004 and one current user is telling me the Maratnz will do this type of post processing for you (it also has the bass management flexibility of the CBIII - it has basically build in a full blown SSP into the player). For your 7.1 application and commitment to six shooters this sounds like a cheaper and better option than upgrading to HDMI. Additional advantage is it actully ship. You would need to verify with Marantz you can actualy do this though.

I still want the Theta upgrade. I find for movies the Casablanca is more dynamic than the Six Shooter? The Six Shooter is not a passive preamplifier but it damn sure sounds like one. I find passives clean and transparent but lacking some in dynamics. I use the Six shooter with a good player for concert blu-ray and SACD.

Depressingly, should I find the same (i.e. analog route preference for some content/formats and digital route for others), I would also consider keeping the Marantz, Six Shooter, Xtreme cards and do the upgrade. The obsessive compulsive nature of this hobby is certainly not cheap..... What SACD and blu-ray player are you using if I may ask?

Marantz SA7s1 for audio. My theater gear is in storage. Just kept out enough for two channel. Job relocation. Sold most of my video stuff.

So does even one person in the whole world, other than Theta, have their new Blu Ray player yet? Mark (Haflich)? VGI (Craig)? Tyree (Norm)?

Meridian's stuff seems to be about on par with the Superior II dacs but not the Xtremes.

Or any of the promised stuff, Dreadnaught III amp anyone?

Which I why I'm surprised/puzzled you qualified CD playback over Xtreme cards compared to your Marantz SA7S1 over six shooter as "garbage". For me the Xtreme give me the best CD playback I've ever had, but then I never owned a $7K CD player. I will soon be able to tell myself as I have a ud9004 arriving next week. This of course assumes the ud9004 is close enough to the SA7S1(as claimed by anyone involved in selling ud9004's but which has not been confirmed in independent A/B listening test).

In few days my Compli Blu will arrive. I already have the Oppo 83 SE with HD-SDI. I have two systems, but only one BD player. Earlier I cancelled my order of the Blu, but my dealer gave me a better offer and now because I realize I need two BD players I am thinking I will give it a try. I will compare the Blu against the Oppo for both analog vs digital audio as well as video, hdmi vs hdmi and hd-sdi vs hdmi. (Unfortunately Theta does not provide hd-sdi).

Who did your SDI on the SE? Since the Video Circuitry is the same they should be able to provide SDI on the Theta. Norm

True. It was JVB Digital who did SDI on my Oppo.

No doubt they could do the Theta as well.

Steve, The first run was Silver. We have a Black on order which should be this week. Norm

Finally been able to do a test between the Oppo 83 SE with HD-SDI and the Theta Compli Blu. I have not used any measurements in the test, so it is not an attemt to be scientific in any ways, just my opinions and my findings using my own eyes and ears. I am not considering the differences in price, this small test is just about performance.

Test with both units performed in my no. 1 system and with exact same cables. All video cables are Nordost silverscreen. Audio going through a Cary Cinema 11a to amps. Video going through a Crystalio II VPS-3800 processor and to a Sony VW100 projector which has a new bulb. The units are set to run Source Direct, dvd is sent as 480i, and BD as 1080i or 1080p. Both units are also running the same firmware from Oppo, from Dec 24 last year.

So how does the Compli Blu, brand new out of the box, perform against the Oppo 83 SE which already has run about 100-150 hrs? Very well I have to say.

Test #1: Blu-Ray movie
Because of a bug with HD-SDI in the current Oppo firmware I am not able to watch Blu-Ray through HD-SDI, only HDMI. So I compared apples to apples, HDMI out from the Oppo 83 SE and HDMI out from the Compli Blu.

-Results for video:
The Compli Blu has lower noise and more vivid and lifelike colors. It is not a big difference, but noticeable. I especially like the colors the Compli Blu. It looks like it has more density. It is also sharper, and very very close to HD-SDI from the Oppo as I can remember it. Although I belive HD-SDI out from the Oppo will be a bit sharper, I think I would prefer the Compli Blu because of the nice colors.

-Results for audio:
Running digital audio out, there were big differences. The Compli Blu is far ahead.

=>Compli Blu won for both audio and video.


Test #2: DVD movie
Now compared both with HDMI and SDI out from the Oppo 83 SE and HDMI out from the Compli Blu.

-Results for video:
HDMI out from the Oppo loses. Then it is a very close race between SDI out from the Oppo and HDMI on the Compli. Same as with Blu-Ray I still prefer the colors the Compli produces, but now I can see that the Oppo with SDI really has an advantage when it comes to sharpness. SDI really shines here, so I think I will say that the overall picture quality from the Oppo with SDI is the best. But it amazes me that the Compli Blu without SDI is so close. Congrats to Theta!

-Results for audio:
Sames as with Blu-Ray. Running digital audio out, there were big differences. The Compli Blu is far ahead.

=>Compli Blu won for audio, and the Oppo with a small margin on video, but only when using the SDI output.


Test #3: SACD
I had the same results with 2ch SACDs and multich SACDs so I will not comment on each.

Now compared both with digital out and analog out for both units. Digital sent as PCM over HDMI up to 96 kHz. Still same cables.

-Results for analog output:
The Oppo 83 SE was clearly the winner here. Much more air around voices and instruments, greater depth and dynamics. The Compli Blu sounded less resolved and not as musical, but don´t misunderstand. The Compli Blu still sounds very good throgh the analog outputs. But also, I believe the Compli is built upon the standard Oppo and not the SE version so it was not surprising that I got these results. It should also be considered that the Compli Blu is brand new, so I guess it will improve quite a lot after some burn-in.

-Results for digital output:
Digital out from the Compli is a little bit better than from the Oppo. I don´t know why, but of some reason I think I could here bigger differences with movies where the Compli Blu was much better.

Going digital from my Compli Blu through the Cinema 11a also is a little bit better than analog from the Oppo SE.

=>Compli Blu won for audio when running digital out, but that is just because the DACs in the Cary Cinema 11a is up to the task. With a lesser Surround processor I guess running analog out from the Oppo SE would be hard to beat.

Preferred order
1. Compli Blu digital to the Cinema 11a
2. Oppo SE analog to the Cinema 11a
3. Oppo SE digital to the Cinema 11a
4. Compli Blu analog to the Cinema 11a

2 & 3 are hard to separate, sound very like on most recordings, also 1 & 2 are pretty close.


Final "conclusion":
Compli Blu is the winner if cost is not an issue. Or if you have a high end audio and video system. The Oppo 83 SE is still a very good choice and gives better value for the money. The Compli stays in my system #1. The Oppo is sent to system #2 !

Oh boy .

By chance, does your processor display the input *video* format it is receiving (e.g. RGB/ YUV, 4:2:2, 4:2:0, etc)? If so, can you display that in the above scenarios and report back what it says?

Do you know what changes Theta has done to achieve lower noise and more vivid and life-like colors over Oppo?

Doug, that was pretty quick!!!@@@

Concern here is that the two players videowise may require a bit different calibration for the monitor, so perceived video differences may not be real.


Buts its also possible that Theta's mods especially power supply to give discernable subjective improvements whether audio or video.
Will be interesting as more folks report.

Armando, how did you get ahold of one so quick in Norway. No one here in the U.S. has given any subjective performance review so far.

Hey Steve,

This is great news about the Compli Blu.. Reich told me this thing was going to kick some butt due to the separate power supplies and he did deliver.

I have a bunch out there delivered and running but have only heard back from a few guys.

One told me last week that it totally kicks the crap out of his Pioneer BDP09 which is great news..

Another guy ordered a second in Black for the other room in the house which certainly says he liked the first.. Still a bunch on back order but flowing at a even rate of speed now and the 6 weeks is like 1-2 weeks now..

The trade in/special they are running i thought was clever and is helping people get into a player at this price point for not much more than a Pioneer and for a hand built player from Southern Calif.. Thats Awesome..

We are happy and now if we can get HDMI out in the next few months, the world will be a better place

Trying to work out some really cool pricing on the HDMI upgrades and how this is going to work..

I came up with some very cool concepts that the factory is looking at..

Who knows what the future might bring

Craig
Theatermax LLC