Single Rythmik F12 or Dual eD A3s-250s? (Apartment; 60/40 Music-HT)

I've decided to go with... both! I am going to do a bake-off, and figure out what to do with the loser later. I've picked up a used F12SE off the forums, and am waiting on production of the eD A3s-250s. I promise to keep updating this thread as I play with the system (biggest pet peeve of forum postings is the "hey, what should I get... I promise to post my results... end of thread." There will be follow-through here, so subscribe!

Best,
- rupnok

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Hey folks,

I wanted to throw out a very simple question. I have read through a whole heck of a lot of threads, and understand the variety of options available to me. I have read about the usual options from HSU, SVS, and Epik. I have a 5.0 system made by AV123 (X-Statik/X-Voce/X-Omni), in a medium-sized apartment, on the second floor. I am powering it via a Denon 1909. I am a weekday music & TV/weekend movie guy (so I guess 60/40 music to HT).

I have narrowed my choices to a FRONT FIRING sub, with an inclination to a SEALED sub, and SMALL footprint, given my apartment situation, and preference for music. I seriously considered the SVS PB12+ and Epik Vanquish. But I've narrowed my choices to two options:

(1) Sealed Rythmik Servo F12G 12", Sealed, Front-Firing, with GR Research paper-cone. This would be semi-DIY, where eD would build the cabinet, and I would assemble.

(2) Dual eD A3s-250 10", Sealed, Front-Firing. These would be pre-orders, at a pretty competitive price (which I can't disclose). In production process now, and will be out in a month or so.

I like bass, but I like where I live as well - hence a desire for good quality (SQ) bass, without the "rumble" and "room shaking" of a real HT sub that goes down to 5Hz (an exaggeration!). Room has a few peaks & nulls, that I have to eQ out (thinking about the BFD/REW setup).

(1) I like the thought of two very small footprint placed to smooth out EQ, or even stacked to provide a little extra hump when I want it (on the weekends).

(2) I am in awe of the great reviews of the Rythmik F12 servos, and having experienced wonderful speakers by Danny Ritchie, I am inclined to take his design advice seriously, and he swears by the Rythmik servo design.

I do hope that I have been thorough in explaining what I a looking for. These forums have been a great resource for me, and I am certain that my choice will be one of the two options described. Would love your guy's take on what I should do.

Thanks!

I was hoping for someone with experience with eD sealed subs to chime in... Obviously the Rythmik is a highly regarded musical sub, but I've also heard great things on the s-series of subs from eD.

What value is there in the servo for someone that is not pushing their sub too hard? Am I going to get more value from two smaller 10" sealed that can help smooth frequency response in the room...

Part thread-bump (title changed to be reflective of question); part clarification.

(1) Room Size is 24x12x12 (open to kitchen and hallway, and VERY tall ceilings)
(1) The price differential between the two options is in favor of the dual 10" by about $150
(2) As far as upgrade path - the Rythmik would be semi-DIY, and therefore less attractive to sell
(3) Dual 10s may be stacked, and the second only turned on during "movie-watching"

The eD A3s-250 is a 10" sealed, 300W sub. The Orb Super 8 is a 8", 200W sub, that is more expensive. I believe I will stick with the eD as the favored alternative to the Rythmik.

I appreciate the suggestion though!

http://forum.edesignaudio.com/showth...and-71688.html

A3S-250
Sealed 10" w/ 300w.
Dimensions:
14.25" W x 14.25" H (Plus .5" isolation pad) x 14.25" D (Plus .75" grill and amplifier dials)

Intro Price $315
Website Price $350
List Price $400

They offer an eQ.2 for $85 with purchase of the sub. I've been playing around with the idea of going for the Behringer Frequency Destroyer (BFD) with the REW software plugin. The BFD can handle two separate channels of EQ... which would be perfect for a dual-sub setup.

The eQ.2 is only a two-band PEQ... and from what I've read, a little hard to dial-in properly because the knobs are so small.

rhcorolla,

Thanks for the response - your feedback is very much in line with what I've heard from others: the Rythmik F12 G is a great musical sub... that leaves a little bit to be desired in the "punch" department when it comes to HT.

Basically, I'm on the fence in regards to whether the eD A3s-250s are going to be "musical enough" for me. I think the trade-off is punch (two sealed 10" with 300w apiece) to musicality (Rythmik). Unfortunately this isn't going to be solved - unless I went with the Rythmik F15 or AV123 MFW-15... infeasible given my apartment situation!

I think I am going to order the A3s-250s @ introductory pricing, and demo them for 30 days. If I'm unhappy, I will return, and go the semi-DIY route with the Rythmik. I can't say the same for the Rythmik, considering the cabinet alone is going to cost me ~$200, and is non-refundable...

Your calculations are pretty spot on...but with $100 savings, I get a match between the subs & my mains in terms of finish. Hey - if I'm paying $800 for a sub - I want the aesthetics too! That said, your point is totally valid. I gain the ability to audition/return/better resale potential going with the Rythmik built option. Fact is that there are a few used ones out there from Danny's spring promotion - with the smaller 300W sub in honey oak - at great discounts (I've gotten a few PMs). I also have an opportunity to buy the non-GR SE (piano gloss) at a pretty attractive price (god bless these forums!), but that's a little less exciting because of the aluminum cone (not a huge fan of them...)

I am really torn here - because I am basically buying the eDs on spec and rep, and have never heard the Rythmik in person. Ah... the travails of going internet direct! Return shipping on the dual eD 10s would probably be in the neighborhood of $80...

Any one in the MA area have a Rythmik servo that they'd be willing to audition for me?

Here's hoping I am satisfied with the eDs! errrr :-/

For listening at low to moderate volumes - a paper or other low-mass drivers are a better fit. The tradeoff (as there are always tradeoffs) is the inability for paper drivers to handle high output without distortion. vantagesc hit the nail on the head:


Given that my music listening is in the -25 to -30dB (~70dB), the paper driver is preferred. I will cross them over at about 60, with a very slight boost at the top end to compensate for the gradual roll-off of my X-Statiks at 65hz.

From Brian (Rythmik's site)

"The main performance difference is in the drivers. F12G uses a paper driver designed by GR Research. The paper driver is lighter than our standard aluminum drivers and has a more extended response. It can handle a higher crossover point, however, this is only significant when crossing above 80 Hz If a higher crossover point is desired, F12G is the subwoofer of choice. Please note: when crossing this high, localization can become an issue and dual subwoofers are recommended. Regarding the lower mass, this results in slightly better dynamics at low to moderate output levels. The downside with the paper cone is that it is not as stiff as our aluminum drivers. As a result, the performance suffers more at high output, especially with a small sealed box."

alphaii... you inspired me.

Right after I finished writing about why an aluminum driver may not be right for me, I decided to call Brian @ Rythmik and get his take...

... now, I will soon be the proud owner of a F12SE (courtesy of a great forum member who has experienced some life changes requiring him to move his sub).This is the coveted piano gloss finish, with black woofer, sold by Ascend.

alphaii is right; given this is a production sub, I can A/B them with the eDs, and if I like this better, keep it, and return the eDs. If not, I can probably find a buyer for the F12SE, and not lose too much on the transaction.

All told, I'm probably out ~$80-$100 more by going the "shoot-out" route... but given the great value I'm getting on both ends, I think I can stomach the cost. Plus, it will be a chance to give back to the forums!

Special thanks to the forum members that have offered me their time & energy... & subs!

I actually talked with both Brian and Chad @ Meniscus Audio - preferred custom cabinet manufacturer from GR Audio Circle - in Grand Rapids, MI (woohoo!). Chad's installed a whole bunch of Rythmik's and obviously Brian is going to BS me. Between them, the consensus was:

- The aluminum cone can be crossed-over @ 80hz max, but preferably even a little lower, whereas the paper-cone can be used in stereo-sub modes all the way up to 120hz
- Paper cones were developed for Danny to work his open-baffle magic, and for primary music listening
- Aluminum cone, due to it's stiffness, is going to provide a little bit better punch when dialed-up for home theater viewing
- The paper cone, at low-to-moderate listening levels, will be a slight bit more "dynamic"

Paraphrasing Brian: "If you had a sealed, dedicated listening room, and put the DS1200 and F12G on, you may notice a difference - but that's for audiophiles who are spending thousands of dollars on their DACs and transports."

Given that 1/2 of my music collection is still crappy MP3s, I decided to take the upside on the aluminum cone for the home theater, because I will not hear much of a difference on the downside, and will be crossing over at 60hz to my X-Statiks.

p.s. good to see you on another forum, alphaiii. I've read a bunch of your posts on the AV123 and TweakCiyAudio. Would have loved to buy your rosewood ELTs... too bad they are local only!

Hrimnir,

Funny you mention that - the thought has crossed my mind - keep whichever one I :don't: choose for two-channel duty. I picked up a set of (excellent) AV123 ELT525Ms. Great little mini-monitor for 2 channel music, but lacking a little in mid-bass (80hz on down). And terribly inefficient. Thinking I can probably utilize either sub(s) in a two-channel (from an iMac).

Any good integrated amp? How would I set this up - RCA out to sub, RCA out from sub to amp, amp to speakers? The ELT525Ms are rated at 83db - can a T-Amp run this at any reasonable volume?

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I've seen the Gizmo & read about the Virtue over on AudioCircle. To be honest, I am not a HUGE audiophile, so I may just stick with my :rarely: used bedroom receiver (5 year old Onkyo SR-603x). Not too shabby, and has integrated bass management (can't sell it because it only has component switching, and does not decode latest audio formats).

As for the Rythmik... WOW! I got it last night, and this thing is stunning in it's beauty! I am not one to comment too much on aesthetics, but WOW! I have yet to dial it in to the system, so this is my plan:

(1) Hook up REW with my RatShack SPL meter and MacBook to find any peaks
(2) Utilize the single band PEQ on the Rhythmik to tame the biggest peak
(3) Run Audyssey to set phase and tame any other peaks
(4) Rerun REW to validate Audyssey

I know there is some controversy over letting Audyssey do bass management - but I feel like that any chance that Audyssey boosts signals below 20hz are mitgiated by the on board rumble filter and servo.

Thoughts?