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Official Sony BD Mega-Changer Thread: BDP-CX7000ES & BDP-CX960 - Page 4

post #91 of 3313
[quote=thrang;17086777]Again, I would say with CEDIA about a week away, let's see - the firmware update was announced for Q4, and is still on their FAQ, and it is not uncommon for their to be a gap between old inventory and a new product announcement.

I wish I were as optimistic as you. I guess they could have cleared out their inventory, but what's the odds of that? Be ready for the merchandise to be sold off at pennies on the dollar, then turned over on EBAY. I doubt they have even sold enough to have turned a profit on the millions they must have spent on development, marketing, etc. Its only been available for a year.

The problem is DVD ripping. The writing is on the wall..... good luck to Kalaidescape, if there is anything left of them after they spend $$$ on attorney fees, defending themselves in court. The DVD CCA is after kalaidescape, who's going to win this one? Sure Kalaidescape is still selling units, what else can they do? Close down the company?
post #92 of 3313
[quote=thrang;17086821]The second part of the FAQ



along with three emails I have from Escient leave no wiggle room - this is not to say they wouldn't do an about face, but they would lose a substantial amount of credibility, especially with the CI market, if they do so.

I think the credibility is done gone
post #93 of 3313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bellaireroad View Post

I seriously doubt there will be any new hardware at Cedia. this was their flagship line introduced at cedia last year. They have been watching the kalaidescape lawsuit, and are probably next in line. Very unfortunate situation, and I will be surprised if there are any further firmware upgrades. When has a manufacturer ever offered an upgrade after they have pulled the product? I think the best to hope for is continued support for malfunctioning units.

If legal concerns over storing DVDs on the hard drive are the issue, remember, Kaliedascape won its suit. More to the point, however, the Vision's ability to control a BD changer is a different kettle of fish altogether.

The suddenness of this announcement suggests something crazy lurking behind it, perhaps some kind of suit. As an attorney, my first thought is how many units were sold, and when they started promising BD support.

My second thought is class action. If any were around for the old Entre/Kenwood Sovereign thread, they know I've been down this path before.

Thanks,

Nick
post #94 of 3313
[quote=bellaireroad;17086895]
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Sure Kalaidescape is still selling units, what else can they do? Close down the company?

Well, that's sort of what you're saying Escient is doing - Fireballs are not very popular right now...so what's left?

I'm not being overly optimistic - just a wait and see attitude till a formal statement from Escient next week. Otherwise, it is idle, if not somewhat perversely pessimistic, speculation, especially with CEDIA coming.

If they're out, I'll be asking for a refund and certainly stop payment to my credit card company.
post #95 of 3313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo View Post

If legal concerns over storing DVDs on the hard drive are the issue, remember, Kaliedascape won its suit. More to the point, however, the Vision's ability to control a BD changer is a different kettle of fish altogether.

The suddenness of this announcement suggests something crazy lurking behind it, perhaps some kind of suit. As an attorney, my first thought is how many units were sold, and when they started promising BD support.

My second thought is class action. If any were around for the old Entre/Kenwood Sovereign thread, they know I've been down this path before.

Thanks,

Nick

I think they've been promising/stating support all the way back to last CEDIA, though please correct me if I'm wrong on that...
post #96 of 3313
[quote=Nick Satullo;17086922]If legal concerns over storing DVDs on the hard drive are the issue, remember, Kaliedascape won its suit. More to the point, however, the Vision's ability to control a BD changer is a different kettle of fish altogether.

The suddenness of this announcement suggests something crazy lurking behind it, perhaps some kind of suit. As an attorney, my first thought is how many units were sold, and when they started promising BD support.

My second thought is class action. If any were around for the old Entre/Kenwood Sovereign thread, they know I've been down this path before.




Kalaidescape won their suit a couple of years ago, they have been sued agin in the past two weeks, that's what this is about
post #97 of 3313
[quote=bellaireroad;17086945]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo View Post

If legal concerns over storing DVDs on the hard drive are the issue, remember, Kaliedascape won its suit. More to the point, however, the Vision's ability to control a BD changer is a different kettle of fish altogether.

The suddenness of this announcement suggests something crazy lurking behind it, perhaps some kind of suit. As an attorney, my first thought is how many units were sold, and when they started promising BD support.

My second thought is class action. If any were around for the old Entre/Kenwood Sovereign thread, they know I've been down this path before.




Kalaidescape won their suit a couple of years ago, they have been sued agin in the past two weeks, that's what this is about

Here are the details on the ruling from CEPro (from a few weeks ago)

http://www.cepro.com/article/kaleide...ainst_dvd_cca/
post #98 of 3313
[quote=thrang;17086932]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bellaireroad View Post


Well, that's sort of what you're saying Escient is doing - Fireballs are not very popular right now...so what's left?

I'm not being overly optimistic - just a wait and see attitude till a formal statement from Escient next week. Otherwise, it is idle, if not somewhat perversely pessimistic, speculation, especially with CEDIA coming.

If they're out, I'll be asking for a refund and certainly stop payment to my credit card company.

LOL, I agree with the pessimism part, and the speculation part, not sure how you see it as perverted. Must have hit a nerve? BTW, I too have a lot invested with Escient.........
post #99 of 3313
this article was first published 17 July 2009

http://www.avclubhouse.com/2009/08/2...e-vision-line/
post #100 of 3313
[quote=bellaireroad;17086966]
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post


LOL, I agree with the pessimism part, and the speculation part, not sure how you see it as perverted. Must have hit a nerve? BTW, I too have a lot invested with Escient.........

Not a nerve specially with the Escient issue, but anytime there are posts in that posit speculation as presumed fact with no other information, I think they are generally less than constructive
post #101 of 3313
[quote=thrang;17086264]This probably means new HW for CEDIA

What's this?
post #102 of 3313
[quote=bellaireroad;17087327]
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

This probably means new HW for CEDIA

What's this?

This was meant to counter balance your original speculation, in the context that this is primary time (pre-CEDIA), to rev products.

Best that we end this, and wait and see what Escient says next week...
post #103 of 3313
agreed, cedia will be interesting
post #104 of 3313
For what it is worth, Niveus does not indicate it has pulled any of its products, nor has Kaleidescape.

It does seem to be quite a coincidence, but what a knee jerk reaction by Escient that would be.

If this holds, the Megachanger really could be the only legal future if DVDs could not be stored on hard drives. All Kaleidescape, Niveus, and Escient could do would be to build devices for changers, or go out of business.

Maybe it would not be too difficult to redesign the VS-100 to simply be the gui for a megachanger, or with Escient gone, maybe Sony can build a better gui since the only issue is burning dvds?

We shall see.
post #105 of 3313
post #106 of 3313
I think we need to beg Sony for a UI upgrade so we can eliminate the need for a outboard UI. I think the Pope is getting angry eyes
I think I'm going to wait for the low rent version of the changer. I can buy two of them for the price of one ES and tell Escient to KMA
post #107 of 3313
Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post

I think we need to beg Sony for a UI upgrade so we can eliminate the need for a outboard UI. I think the Pope is getting angry eyes
I think I'm going to wait for the low rent version of the changer. I can buy two of them for the price of one ES and tell Escient to KMA


I'm all for this route as well, but does Sony really solicit/listen to feedback? Apple, for example, has a very specific feedback mechanism for all its products (www.apple.com/feedback) I've even been contacted in response based on suggestions. But I can't seem to find anything like this on Sony's site...

Anyone going to CEDIA - find the product manager for the changer and hit them hard but fair on improving the GUI!
post #108 of 3313
improved UI for changer is already being worked on:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=624

windows based control program/ 2 way connected via serial & ethernet ports of changer
post #109 of 3313
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

improved UI for changer is already being worked on:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=624

windows based control program/ 2 way connected via serial & ethernet ports of changer

I can't do anything with the files, but isn't this more about changer control using the Sony GUI? While this is great in its own right, I think a number of us would really like to see an Escient/Kaleidscape style GUI to navigate the BDP contents.

And perhaps its the difference between DVD vs Blu Ray discs and Gracenote's DB, but I noticed the Vision was much better at downloading the correct and complete data for every DVD I've ripped, but the BDP made several mistakes or plain didn't download anything for about 10-15% of my library.

I have some feedback regarding the Escient situation, but I'm awaiting permission to post the gist of it...
post #110 of 3313
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

improved UI for changer is already being worked on:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=624

windows based control program/ 2 way connected via serial & ethernet ports of changer

Yes but, his solution still relies on the ES's RS-232 port if I'm not mistaken.
I have not actually had time to sit down at the PC and tried to program it in Crestron yet and my original thought's on how to do it especially with two players revolved around the ability to select by disc slot # via IR which seems to be out at this time. My original thought was to have player "A" have disc's 1-400 and player "B" be 401-800, (re-labled in software) with disc's a-m delegated to player "A" and n-z in player "B". If you know what you wish to watch and enter it on a search line and it started with the letter S, it would automatically prompt player "B" to display it's UI. If you had a hard copy of all your movies and their associated slot number and you were looking for slot 535, it would be slot 135 of player "B". Again, this is all rattling around in my head with nothing written down or tested.
post #111 of 3313
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

While this is great in its own right, I think a number of us would really like to see an Escient/Kaleidscape style GUI to navigate the BDP contents.

I was thinking the same thing as you Thrang. I have had the Escient Fireball for a year now and really like the GUI. The Escient Vision appears to answer every weakness the Megachanger has.

The way I look at it, if Escient's decision to discontinue its Vision line occurred back in July, this is well before they updated their Vision FAQ to support the Megachanger in the detail that now exists in the FAQ. Their FAQ has been stating for at least a year that they would support the Megachanger with their Vision line, so I think you are correct in that they intend to do so, even though it will not result in the sale of anymore units.

The resent legal issue with competitor Kaleidscape is a year or two away from being resolved according to Kaleidscape, and is a contract dispute. Actually, since Escient is unique among all its competitors that it supports a third party Megachanger, the legal news could be viewed as good news for them as their product line is not dependant on burning DVDs.

IMHO, Given that they are part of a much larger prestigious group of companies that include Denon, Marantz, Snell, Boston Acoustics and Escient, D&M Holdings cannot just disappear although the future of the Escient line may be questionable.

So I think this will be a non issue for what we want this machine to do. The fact that the Vision is having issues with multi room is not an issue for me. This is what may have doomed them as it would be a big disadvantage vs their competitors who have units that handle this smoothly.

The real question will be, will the update to the Vision work well and should someone wait until another company steps in to make a better gui? With Kaleidscape, Niveus, and even Fusion Research all supporting their own Blue Ray player, this would seem unlikely.

If we get a written confirmation from Escient that they will indeed update their Vision product for the Megachanger, then I may accelerate my decision and go ahead and purchase one immediately. Otherwise I will likely wait until the update is provided and check the forum for its reviews.
post #112 of 3313
Since the megachanger can only read one side of a two sided dvd, like the Miami Vice series, I will need to burn the "B" sides inorder to play them in the changer. I have AnyDVD and CloneDVD2, but I am given two choices of "format(?)" to burn to; ISO/UDF or DVD Writer. Assuming no compression is used, which would provide a better picture in the megachanger? Or would it be the same either way? I apologize in advance if this is a stupid question.
post #113 of 3313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah Winter View Post

For what it is worth, Niveus does not indicate it has pulled any of its products, nor has Kaleidescape.

It does seem to be quite a coincidence, but what a knee jerk reaction by Escient that would be.

If this holds, the Megachanger really could be the only legal future if DVDs could not be stored on hard drives. All Kaleidescape, Niveus, and Escient could do would be to build devices for changers, or go out of business.

Maybe it would not be too difficult to redesign the VS-100 to simply be the gui for a megachanger, or with Escient gone, maybe Sony can build a better gui since the only issue is burning dvds?

We shall see.

Did anyone listen to the interview by Ian Dixon on the Media Center Showthis week with S1 Digital. They claim they are going to announce at CEDIA that they have there own Media Center controlled Blu-ray changer (100-disc, but stackable) as part of their Digital Entertainment Platform. They claim that they are "working on" giving it the ability to play movies back directly from Media Center. Listen to the interview.
post #114 of 3313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondoman2k View Post

Did anyone listen to the interview by Ian Dixon on the Media Center Showthis week with S1 Digital. They claim they are going to announce at CEDIA that they have there own Media Center controlled Blu-ray changer (100-disc, but stackable) as part of their Digital Entertainment Platform. They claim that they are "working on" giving it the ability to play movies back directly from Media Center. Listen to the interview.

Here is the link to it: http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/ians...1-digital.aspx

Its 46.27 minutes into the interview. Their system sounds just like the Escient but with Media Center and with their own Blue Ray changer. Nice gui on the S1 website. It was an interesting 6 minutes, the device had some of the same limitations as the VS-100. Lol at the number of times he kept mentioning only using uncopy protected movie dvds for burning in their system which would be a disadvantage over Escient if you wanted to store dvds on their hard drive as this would require extra steps. They did describe the market segment that did not want to burn their dvds to a hard drive.

With their own proprietary hardware and being media center based they are in the same boat as Niveus but with a blue ray changer. The changer is mentioned on their website, but without any details. This is likely a much less expensive alternative to Kaleidescape with its media streaming capability.
post #115 of 3313
Those of you that have a megachanger...how do you handle the disks with bonus material on them? Does Gracenote know they are a bonus disk associated with a specific movie, or do you just keep them in the blu-ray case?
post #116 of 3313
Thread Starter 
I spoke with Escient this AM. According to the support rep, yes, the Vision Line is being killed, but continued support, including the BD Changer support, can be expected. According the rep, the legal problems surrounding Kaleidascape had no impact. Rather, it has been the problems associated with the Escient Vision all along.

I think I'm in a position to shed some insight.

Escient almost certainly has been advised by its legal counsel that the Vision series was released with forward looking statements, and lots of custom designers and consumers bought into those statements and built systems based on those statements. While Escient would certainly argue in court that any remedy should be limited to return of purchase price (as opposed to the consequential damages following the purchase of an Escient product), there are two other conclusions Escient should reach: (1) they don't want to return the money paid for those products; and (2) they really don't want some starving lawyer to get a load of this as a potential class action.

Class actions, from a plaintiff's lawyer perspective, are even better than sliced bread. A friend of mine was local counsel on one against a computer company that's now bankrupt. The class action itself was based on the fact that the letter "r" would come off the keyboards of lots of their laptops, and laptop owners would need new letters.

Of course, when normal people lose the letter "r" on their keyboard, the first thing they think of is calling a lawyer, right? Well, in this case, the remedy was that a plethora of notices went out to everyone that ever bought the computer, and they were notified that they were the prospective or putative members of a class, and that a settlement had been reached, and they could either join in (by doing nothing), or opt out (by taking the time to write, perhaps hire a lawyer to object to the settlement). The result--you guessed it--was that very few people did anything. On that basis the settlement was approved.

The laptop owners got a card entitling them to a free "r." My friend got about $150,000 as his fee on the case, and he wasn't the only lawyer involved.

Astute counsel for companies like Escient will advise them like this: Tell everyone that you will still support the Vision, and that you will provide each upgrade that you promised. Despite the fact that Escient wants to move away from Vision, it will do this because it is cheaper than getting sued, and having a starving lawyer decide that it should promise this, and add about $500,000 in legal fees on to that expense.

That's a long way of saying that I believe Escient when it says it will continue to support the Vision.

However, I encourage everyone to contact Escient as I did, and confirm what was told to me. Then post it on AVS as confirming the conversation you just had with Escient. Or confirm it in an email to Escient. If Escient's intentions of support ever diverge, let's pledge to help those starving lawyers in getting for us what we need.

Thanks,

Nick
post #117 of 3313
Yes, I heard similar - that the line as-is is discontinued, but that technical and hw support will continue at least until next August. Additionally, the Q4 firmware update with BDP changer support is still on track, as will be any additional firmware/software fixes required to correct problems with the Vision units.

No new Vision announcements at CEDIA, but future product roadmap is still being determined. They said it had nothing to do with K-Scape, but more changing market conditions. It is also possible there would be a changer-only control/GUI unit, though this was an unofficial comment....
post #118 of 3313
I'm curious why there isn't an ancillary thread for the advanced topics related to this thread topic? This topic is about the BD Changers, so would it be helpful to have a second "official" thread about connecting Escient devices etc, so that this thread is strictly for standalone use of the BD Changer?
post #119 of 3313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew2k View Post

I'm curious why there isn't an ancillary thread for the advanced topics related to this thread topic? This topic is about the BD Changers, so would it be helpful to have a second "official" thread about connecting Escient devices etc, so that this thread is strictly for standalone use of the BD Changer?

Point taken: many who bought the changer did so with the expectation to use it with the Escient server

there is another thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1007709
post #120 of 3313
[quote=Noah Winter;17092353]Here is the link to it: http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/ians...1-digital.aspx

Its 46.27 minutes into the interview. Their system sounds just like the Escient but with Media Center and with their own Blue Ray changer. Nice gui on the S1 website. It was an interesting 6 minutes, the device had some of the same limitations as the VS-100. Lol at the number of times he kept mentioning only using uncopy protected movie dvds for burning in their system which would be a disadvantage over Escient if you wanted to store dvds on their hard drive as this would require extra steps. They did describe the market segment that did not want to burn their dvds to a hard drive.

Yes, I see this as a plus. Once the DVD was burned using the Escient, it was essentially "locked". A system where transfer over IP ( I rip on my computer, and transfer to the server- then later if I want to burn off the server, I can) would offer the most flexibility
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