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NEW WAF-1 speakers by Tweak City Audio - Page 3

post #61 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Good morning guys ... When we first got the WAF-1's configured in our 3700 cubic foot theater, there have been a lot of comparisons done between the WAF-1 as a center channel and a highly regarded MTM center channel which sells for more than 6 WAF-1's in our current package.

The consenses is no contest for overall dialogue clarity, especially off axis. The WAF-1's (and other two way bookshelf speakers) are much more articulate.

An area in which The WAF-1's are really good is one can sit outside the side speakers, and the dialogue is still nicely centered on the screen.

Since last night, I have been swapping between horizontal and vertical orientation of the WAF-1's. No one in the family could here any difference. I noticed a slight warming of the sound outside the main speakers, in terms of center channel performance.

Overall, and this will get more listening over the weekend, the WAF-1 horizontal as a center channel is equal to the vertical orientation if one is inside the plane of the main speakers, and slightly warmer outside the plane.

With the MTM centers we have here, outside the plane of the mains makes for some pretty "wobbly" responses, in terms of dialogue.

WAF-1, in a horizontal orientation, makes an excellent center channel.

When I am listening to these speakers, I still have a hard time thinking of them as "mine". That being said, I also understand why anyone reading this would possibly think "Great, but they are his company's".

Just like many of you, I am looking forward to more people getting these and comparing them to other speakers.

You should take a set to Sean Olive @ Harman and have him setup a proper DBT with your speakers vs others.

You will then know if they are good or not
post #62 of 273
Penngray, always nice to hear from you. Last month, you said you were on the pre order list for our original 10 inch sub. Interestingly, no pre order ever existed. We won't do pre orders for any product.

Now you think Harman would allow us to use their facilities ?

Your world is a fun place.
post #63 of 273
Sorry to hijack the thread, but when will we expect your first sub to accompany the WAF-1? It looks like my parents may need some in their room soon. Looking forward to one. Thanks.
post #64 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Penngray, always nice to hear from you. Last month, you said you were on the pre order list for our original 10 inch sub. Interestingly, no pre order ever existed. We won't do pre orders for any product.

Now you think Harman would allow us to use their facilities ?

Your world is a fun place.

I posted on your forum last year, several of us did. Many just said that if there is a pre-order list put us on it. Never read a post saying there would be no pre-order list but in the end the Scamp-10 never came out.

There are testing facilities for those who want to really know if their speakers are any good.

Actually you do not need to go there you just need to setup a very good DBT environment against several popular sub $1K designs. You will then know if its your love of the product or truely the product that is good.

btw, Im not questioning you, just saying there is a good way to know for sure.
post #65 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by skool View Post

Sorry to hijack the thread, but when will we expect your first sub to accompany the WAF-1? It looks like my parents may need some in their room soon. Looking forward to one. Thanks.

We are waiting on the OEM to finish the amp, which should be this coming week. Then all parts will be ordered. I will have a better idea from the amp and driver OEM at that time.

A guess ... Late October.
post #66 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You should take a set to Sean Olive @ Harman and have him setup a proper DBT with your speakers vs others.

You will then know if they are good or not

Same thing, right back at you, but concerning your DIY speakers.

Heehee, I couldn't resist.
post #67 of 273
Any "profesional" reviews yet?

I am especially interested in comparing them to th av123 x-ls... NON ninja modified...

and not 1 or 2 word reviews like... "warmer" or "more realistic"
post #68 of 273
With all due respect, I just showed these to my wife, and she does not approve. They may be smallish, and have real wood veneer, but did they actually ask any women what they think before naming them the WAF-1?

Her words (well one word actually): "UG-LY."

I can't say that these would be on my short list of attractive speakers. The color and woodgrain are garish and there is nothing particularly stylish or elegant about the design.
post #69 of 273
Tim ...The women who have seen the WAF-1's in person have said they are damn good looking.

We are also adding a Satin Black finish, which goes into production this month.

Making a judgement about the look based on a picture is rather hard to do.

I will leave it there for now. For some reason, manners are hard to find here with some people.
post #70 of 273
Craig -

You seem like a well-intentioned man, and my comments are not aimed at you. My wife and I just don't care for the appearance of your speakers. Chalk it up as honest feedback.

If the speakers look better in person, I recommend that you hire a professional that is able to capture that on film. Softer lighting, and placing them in living room on some nice stands would help.
post #71 of 273
Tim, I have looked at the pics of your speakers. We all have our preferences.

To you, this is garish:




While yours are to your taste ...

post #72 of 273
Ah, but my speakers are not called "WAF"-1.

They are a man's speaker and aptly named the Discovery, as you will soon discover just how strong your marriage is once they enter your home.

But I get your point. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that.

These were as close as I got to WAF speakers, though she would have been more approving of the bookshelf model.

post #73 of 273
Tim, there is more than one element to the wife acceptance factor. Beauty may be one, but no matter how a speaker is designed, it's looks will not please everyone. Beauty is subjective. Because some find a given speaker unattractive doesn't mean it lacks WAF.

Many feel the Nautilus is beautiful. Personally, I..........well the absolutely MOST charitable I can be is to say I uh...don't care for them (no offense meant to those who find them gorgeous).



There are other, perhaps more important, elements of WAF (certainly ones over which the designer has more control). Having a lot of sound in a small, unobtrusive package (one that doesn't dominate a room like so many um...large, bright, shiny loudspeakers ), and being easy on the wallet, are among them. We feel the WAF-1 achieves those goals and thus is worthy of the name.
post #74 of 273
Passing the WAF also means she'll allow a speaker of that size in your home, in your (her) living room (or bedroom or wherever) and that it sounds good. Heck, women might be able to think of a dozen more things to put on the WAF list, but looks is just one of them, and they do look better in person; even my wife agrees. A pair in satin black will probably go un-noticed and blend in with any surroundings. WAF is a really clever name too, IMO. I am surprised no one else has taken it.

For what it's worth, my wife would tell me every day how ugly my speakers were if we had the Discovery's in our home, so to each their own. And don't even get me started on the Nautilus speakers Rijax posted...I think she'd laugh in my face if I asked to put that in our living room.
post #75 of 273
So how much power can the WAF-1's handle???
post #76 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Same thing, right back at you, but concerning your DIY speakers.

Heehee, I couldn't resist.

hah but Im not selling anything to anyone and I didnt post selling speakers saying they beat everything else in the room and they sound even good laying horizontal (which automatically creates lobing issues). I build my speakers specific to my room. They measure flat in my room and meet the dynamic requirements of my room. I do not care how they actually sound to anyone else on here (And I have done the dBT with them!!) plus mine are truely WAF looking

Im all for great inexpensive speakers and subs, I just want to double check all things subjective.
post #77 of 273
The color of the WAF is the only reason why I did not buy a pair. For me I never really liked the colored wood on speakers. Now that they are coming out in satin black and for the price I will most likely add a pair to one of my systems. All I want is a nice looking pair of bookshelves that sound decent for a good price.
post #78 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

hah but Im not selling anything to anyone and I didnt post selling speakers saying they beat everything else in the room and they sound even good laying horizontal (which automatically creates lobing issues). I build my speakers specific to my room. They measure flat in my room and meet the dynamic requirements of my room. I do not care how they actually sound to anyone else on here (And I have done the dBT with them!!) plus mine are truely WAF looking

Im all for great inexpensive speakers and subs, I just want to double check all things subjective.

I know - I was just pulling your leg.
post #79 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

So how much power can the WAF-1's handle???

This is a question that goes back decades, and is one which is largely mis understood. WAF-1's can be used with amps up to 200 WPC, especially if crossed at 80 Hz.

The key is making sure the power delivered to the speakers is not clipping. A low powered amplifier which is clipping will destroy tweeters, while a 200 WPC amp which is not clipping will work just fine.

This goes for most speakers in this range, from WAF-1's to Ascend 170's to PSB's many bookshelf models (and Paradigm ... etc ...).
post #80 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

hah but Im not selling anything to anyone and I didnt post selling speakers saying they beat everything else in the room and they sound even good laying horizontal (which automatically creates lobing issues). I build my speakers specific to my room. They measure flat in my room and meet the dynamic requirements of my room. I do not care how they actually sound to anyone else on here (And I have done the dBT with them!!) plus mine are truely WAF looking

Im all for great inexpensive speakers and subs, I just want to double check all things subjective.

A pair is being sent out to Affordable Audio this week. We also have had several experienced audiophiles purchase a pair just to do comparisons on their own.

It's interesting, you did a DBT on your speakers against others ?

This means you got a set up in your house which allowed for the switching between your speakers and other speakers in which no one knew the order, nor which speakers were being compared, until after the test ?

This is a very complicated process. Do you have a link to this ?
post #81 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by quadriverfalls View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

rpkelly, taking a WAF-1 and using it horizontally is still less of a compromise than an MTM center channel would be.

I agree completely. You will have all of the benefits of having identical voicing and none of the well documented compromises of an MTM arrangement. Remember rpkelly, midbass and bass waves are much longer and thus a lot more difficult to "localize" audibly compared to the much shorter waves of the higher frequency ranges.

By turning a single WAF-1 on it's side, you will be placing the tweeter right about where it would be in an MTM so that's the same.... and with the midbass driver being extremely hard to tell where it is exactly.... you still have the perfect voice matching with the R/L channel without any comb-filtering of the second driver. The only thing you don't have at first, is that warm fuzzy feeling of "seeing" an MTM dedicated center channel speaker.

But, once you hear the seamless sound stage of the same speaker used as a center, you may never go back to an MTM again. The only thing you really have to lose is a bit of your time. Don't you offer a 30 day in home trial Craig? If so, then I'd say go for it and try it out.

Any measurements to back up these claims?

Quote:


you will have all of the benefits of having identical voicing and none of the well documented compromises of an MTM arrangement.

False in respect of lobing... Lobing will happen even with a 2 way when sitting on its side and listening off angle horizontally. Loudspeaker characteristics varies depending on how off angle you listen to them, and off angle horizontal vs vertical are significantly different. Stick a 2 way speaker sideways, and you should notice that off angle horizontally the sound is different vs if they were sitting upwards. Vertically, off angle is usually much worst than horizontal, and by sticking a 2 way sideways, you basically invert these properties, the speakers will behave much better vertically than horizontally. (meaning they'd sound better if you were too high or too low, than if you were too much on the left/right).

A 15 degree variance horizontally will probably have a more drastic effect than vertically. How do MTM centers compare? I couldn't say. I'd guess it would depend on the center as not all MTM centers are equal. Maybe worse in some cases and better in others, depending on the MTM and the 2 way. But lobing will definitely have an effect. I'd also try to go with an identical center, or an MTM sitting vertical or a center with a vertical TM, but setting a 2 way on its side will have its own set of downsides.

I know that some 2 way speakers have very good vertical off angle response and can be used as a center, (some have specially optimized crossovers for this, same for MTM, crossover does play an important role) but it's definitely not the case for all speakers. As with MTM centers, not all two ways are equal, but in all cases, there will be lobing. So any off angle vertical measurements? Doesn't seem to be many measurements of this speaker out there


For WAF name... They look a bit like 70s era speakers... Quite minimalist... They'd probably seem at home next to an 80's wooden turntable imho Probably not everyone's cup of tea. But for 230$ a pair, I guess that there's not too much competition.

**EDIT**
Ok maybe not, these are 200$, shipped, damn, nice looking speakers!!!



These are 90$... http://store.audioholics.com/shopima...-grillon_1.jpg

150$: http://store.audioholics.com/shopima..._nsb310_bi.jpg

These are 175$ http://www.energy-speakers.com/images/download/224.aspx

Actually, looks like there's many nice speakers at that price and under... Guess I'll have to add my two cents that visually, the WAFs don't seem to be anything too special for me either... Just doesn't do anything particular for me... Maybe the name is a bit presumptuous lol I'd be curious to see how they measure up with the above for example, both for performance and for the WAF
post #82 of 273
^ Buy a pair of all the speakers you linked, Grandarf, then buy a pair of the WAF-1's and do your own testing. I think you'll be surprised (in a good way).

Anyway, to each their own.
post #83 of 273
lol Ok maybe not that curious! I'm really not looking for any speaker in the 200$ price range so the whole adventure would be quite pointless for me...

But even the likes of Aperion have quite nice looking speakers... http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/...08,20,250.aspx 225$ Shipped.




With free return shipping if you decide not to keep them... Have you ever heard these Nuance? Besides the Canton I think you mentioned, is there any other particular speakers around that price point you compared them too? (I don't necessarily mean side by side, just that you heard and could compare them). I know that myself, I never spent too much time in that price category, when shopping for my 1st set, ok, heard a couple (nowhere near an exhaustive list though), and quickly gravitated to 500$+, then 1000$... I'm nowhere near an expert of the the 200$ market, and have heard very little of what's available out there. I really don't know the price point, I thought the WAFs maybe had something special in looks at 200$ish, since they're called WAF, but, there seems to be a lot of nice looking speakers at the price. Something I wasn't really expecting. (better looking even, imho) But then, sound might be another thing...
post #84 of 273
Grandarf...the Aperions are $225 EACH...not in pairs.

But, a comparison to them would be interesting.
post #85 of 273
Ahhh! ok thanks for that Curtis... And the smaller model, 4b doesn't seem to be in the same category with the 100hz bass and four inch woofer (at 130$, though again, different finish and all). Basically all other ID offerings seem more expensive, starting around 300$, pitting the WAFs more against B&M offerings, price wise.

But thanks for clarifying that I'm not absolutely crazy, and that for looks, I would have paid 225$ for 450$ speakers instead of paying 230$ for 230$ speakers hahaha
post #86 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Grandarf...the Aperions are $225 EACH...not in pairs.

But, a comparison to them would be interesting.

Damn ... I was drooling over the Piano Black
post #87 of 273
I've heard a lot in the $300 and less category, but it spans over a decade's worth of time. Polk, JBL, Infinity, KLH (yes I know...don't laugh), Boston Acoustics, Canton, etc. Flanners Audio and Video used to be my main hang out, back when it was still in the "old" building and sold cheaper brands (like mentioned above). They still sell some lower cost stuff, so maybe I will take the WAF's to the store and directly compare. That should be fun.

Anyway, yes, the WAF-1's are better sounding than any of the B&M's in the $300 were, at least than I can remember. I'll be the first to admit that some of those auditions were a while ago, though. For what it's worth, I compared TCA's speakers to the AudioEngine 2's (they went back) and the M-Audio AV40's. The WAF's destroyed them. I am thinking about getting another pair for my PC speakers. Now that would be some good sound for my lowly computer!

Oh, and I have not heard those Aperions, no. I have head the 5T's, though, and I'd pit the WAF's up against those any day. I wouldn't be surprised if the WAF's were superior from 200Hz and up.
post #88 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post


For WAF name... They look a bit like 70s era speakers... Quite minimalist... They'd probably seem at home next to an 80's wooden turntable imho Probably not everyone's cup of tea. But for 230$ a pair, I guess that there's not too much competition.

**EDIT**
Ok maybe not, these are 200$, shipped, damn, nice looking speakers!!!



These are 90$... http://store.audioholics.com/shopima...-grillon_1.jpg

150$: http://store.audioholics.com/shopima..._nsb310_bi.jpg

These are 175$ http://www.energy-speakers.com/images/download/224.aspx

Actually, looks like there's many nice speakers at that price and under... Guess I'll have to add my two cents that visually, the WAFs don't seem to be anything too special for me either... Just doesn't do anything particular for me... Maybe the name is a bit presumptuous lol I'd be curious to see how they measure up with the above for example, both for performance and for the WAF

Some very good looking finds there Grandarf. If I were in the market for WAF speakers in the $200-300 / pair range, I would consider any one of those before the WAF-1. And surprisingly, most of those speakers come from companies with a history of producing good speakers. Even the new guys, EMP speakers, have some pretty impressive credentials.

I'm all for the little guy coming in and giving the big guys a run for their money, but Tweak City has some stiff competition here it seems.
post #89 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

With all due respect, I just showed these to my wife, and she does not approve. They may be smallish, and have real wood veneer, but did they actually ask any women what they think before naming them the WAF-1?

My wife actually preferred the WAF-1 over the rosewood AV123 ELT252Ms and the rosewood Swan D2.1SEs. All of which I have and she compared live. Not that big a surprise because the WAF-1s are the smallest and they look more brown up close. (My wife never liked the Swan red-stained rosewood.)

In my case, I don't think that black will impress her much. She has described many of my other speakers as "oh, you bought another black box." As in, how boring is that.

Jim
post #90 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

This is a question that goes back decades, and is one which is largely mis understood. WAF-1's can be used with amps up to 200 WPC, especially if crossed at 80 Hz.

The key is making sure the power delivered to the speakers is not clipping. A low powered amplifier which is clipping will destroy tweeters, while a 200 WPC amp which is not clipping will work just fine.

This goes for most speakers in this range, from WAF-1's to Ascend 170's to PSB's many bookshelf models (and Paradigm ... etc ...).

This seems like a dodge in answering the question. A speaker's voice coil is only going to dissipate so much heat (watts) before it goes poof. RMS power handling, along with the sensitivity will give the buyer some idea of what sort of output they can expect from the speaker. Of course distortion may reach a level that is unacceptable before the VC fries, but most consumers are going to want to know what the power handling is.
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