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Sony (SPHE) has switched from TrueHD to DTS-HD MA.

post #1 of 215
8/17/09 at 3:20pm
Thread Starter 
At first I thought this was just an oddity, but now I feel like we can confidently say that Sony is switching to DTS-HD MA beginning with Year One. I find it odd that all the majors, except for Warner and Paramount, are using DTS now.


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post #2 of 215
8/17/09 at 3:26pm
I thought this might happen after they had a poll on their website awhile back about what people would prefer. I am curious though as to why they are doing it.
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post #3 of 215
8/17/09 at 3:28pm
Sweet! Are we sure that Warner will be using DTS-MA from now on or was Watchmen just one of those special releases with it?

[/in before someone says how "its all the same 1's and 0's anyway"]

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post #4 of 215
8/17/09 at 3:40pm
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Sweet! Are we sure that Warner will be using DTS-MA from now on or was Watchmen just one of those special releases with it?

[/in before someone says how "its all the same 1's and 0's anyway"]


Just tell them you like your placebo, whether it is better or not becomes immaterial to what sounds better.

I say give us 24bit/96khz 7.1 and let us live in ignorant bliss.
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post #5 of 215
8/17/09 at 3:45pm
its easier to package to since the core and hd can be packaged together.
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post #6 of 215
8/17/09 at 3:46pm
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Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Just tell them you like your placebo, whether it is better or not becomes immaterial to what sounds better.

I say give us 24bit/96khz 7.1 and let us live in ignorant bliss.

*laughs*

So true. Personally, I'd be happier if they went back to using PCM instead of "lossless" anything. But that's me and we are all wacky in our own ways.

Mmmmmm...... 24bit/96khz 7.1.
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post #7 of 215
8/17/09 at 4:41pm
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Originally Posted by cjr1 View Post

I thought this might happen after they had a poll on their website awhile back about what people would prefer. I am curious though as to why they are doing it.

People may *think* that DTS = better, and they don't want the perception to be that their releases are inferior.

Of course, DTS is better if you can't access the full lossless stream. I'd wager that this is some 90%+ of BD consumers. Thus, this is a significant upgrade: now people will be getting a robust 1.5 Mbps DTS core, which is nearly as good as the full lossless (DTS claims transparency at this bitrate), instead of a 640 kbps Dolby track that, while an improvement over DVD, is not quite as good.

The point of Blu-ray is that it's a significant increase in quality over DVD. When people see Dolby Digital tracks on Blu-ray, they don't see that as an increase (they don't know the bitrates on all these things). They do know that DTS is an upgrade. If they don't know the difference at all...well, those are the people for which this switch is irrelevant. This move can only make people happy. No one loses anything, save the people with G1 players that cannot access the full DTS-HD MA, and only decode TrueHD, but a whole segment of customers benefits.

It's also probably easier to author. Now they put on track on the disc, and if you have HDMI 1.3, you get DTS-HD MA. If not, you get the DTS core. That's as easy as it gets. The equipment does everything for you automatically. No worrying about shadow tracks, making sure that the default is lossless (although Sony never had an issue with that).
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post #8 of 215
8/17/09 at 4:44pm
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Originally Posted by Patsfan123 View Post

At first I thought this was just an oddity, but now I feel like we can confidently say that Sony is switching to DTS-HD MA beginning with Year One. I find it odd that all the majors, except for Warner and Paramount, are using DTS now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjr1 View Post

I thought this might happen after they had a poll on their website awhile back about what people would prefer. I am curious though as to why they are doing it.

It probably had something to do with all the propaganda I've been spreading.
I emailed Disney about switching to DTS-MA and they did it. I also wrote an essay(sorta) to HBO about using AVC and 24bit DTS-MA - they so did it.

I'm through with Warner. I don't have a problem with Paramount or Sony, so I left them alone. Effin Universal is going back to VC-1...but I don't have problems with there VC-1 encodes, so who cares.

So 2 studios are still using VC-1 and 2 are still using TrueHD. Woo-hoo I gots my codec wish mostly granted. Paramount and Uni don't need to change a thing though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Sweet! Are we sure that Warner will be using DTS-MA from now on or was Watchmen just one of those special releases with it?

[/in before someone says how "its all the same 1's and 0's anyway"]


Heat is TrueHD, but I haven't seen specs for any of their non-catalog titles. So there's no telling yet.

I just hope Sony finally finds the 24bit switch by the time District 9 comes out. Wicked sound mix, amazing CG, solid story, R-rated alien violence that isn't just graphic for shock value - Go see it!
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post #9 of 215
8/17/09 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

its easier to package to since the core and hd can be packaged together.

Just a clarification... when using TrueHD they are also "packaged" together....
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post #10 of 215
8/17/09 at 5:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Aurora View Post

It's also probably easier to author. Now they put on track on the disc, and if you have HDMI 1.3, you get DTS-HD MA. If not, you get the DTS core. That's as easy as it gets. The equipment does everything for you automatically. No worrying about shadow tracks, making sure that the default is lossless (although Sony never had an issue with that).

There is nothing easier about encoding either codec...

Dolby TrueHD works the same way... for some reason, some studios decide to default to the lossy "shadow" when there is no reason to do so, and it works the same as DTS-HD (i.e. lossless TrueHD on equipment capable of it, DD if not..)
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post #11 of 215
8/17/09 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Just a clarification... when using TrueHD they are also "packaged" together....

yeh but they are not piggybacked like dts correct?? the lossless is a extension of the 1.5mb core. I'd think this is a better way then putting two separate audio encodes.
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post #12 of 215
8/17/09 at 6:40pm
I'd bet a steak dinner that licensing fees drove that decision.
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post #13 of 215
8/17/09 at 7:04pm
So who even uses TrueHD anymore? It seems like all the studios switched.
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post #14 of 215
8/17/09 at 7:10pm
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Originally Posted by TRT View Post

I'd bet a steak dinner that licensing fees drove that decision.

I like my steak medium well.

There is no licensing fee to use DTS or Dolby for video or broadcast.
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post #15 of 215
8/17/09 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

yeh but they are not piggybacked like dts correct?? the lossless is a extension of the 1.5mb core. I'd think this is a better way then putting two separate audio encodes.

Actually, they can be, the authoring house has a choice as to interleave or encode a standalone separate track.

As to whether or not it's a better way (i.e. given content providers a choice) is up for debate. But the codecs are very similar in most ways (dialog norm, flags, etc.) except for the core technology (i.e. core + extension vs. MLP.)

And IMO, the way that Dolby handles 7.1 is much more "idiot" proof than the way in which DTS has enabled an increased channel count.

Before I get accused of being a fan of either codec, however, let me once again say that I've had many films encoded in both formats.... in my experience, neither one offers a sonic advantage over the other.

I'm just glad that most studios have almost exclusively gone lossless, which is good for everybody.
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post #16 of 215
8/17/09 at 7:22pm
Is dialnorm enabled by default in DTS-HD encoders?
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post #17 of 215
8/17/09 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Is dialnorm enabled by default in DTS-HD encoders?

I don't know.. I will find out for you.

You cannot turn it off in the Dolby Encoder.. you can only change the offset value (-31 is essentially bypassed.)

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post #18 of 215
8/17/09 at 7:43pm
yea i still don't understand some of these studios releasing hd-dvd releases in blu-ray and DOWNGRADE the audio from DD+ to just DD....???
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post #19 of 215
8/17/09 at 8:11pm
It was basically announced for the new releases but suprised to see them popping up on the catalog titles. Should have known cause when the titles were announced, they didn't announce the specs.

I know Penton on Blu-Ray.com made a statement about one of the high profile releases coming out in 24bit for the English while the other languages were 16bit. For a studio like Sony it makes sense as they put multiple languages on their releases, to each have their lossless bitstream contain a core as opposed to a separate lossless track.
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post #20 of 215
8/17/09 at 8:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerfreak0 View Post

yea i still don't understand some of these studios releasing hd-dvd releases in blu-ray and DOWNGRADE the audio from DD+ to just DD....???

The BR discs generally have the same exact track as their HD-DVD counterparts - it's just that on BR they don't use the "Plus" part of the name.
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post #21 of 215
8/17/09 at 8:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

And IMO, the way that Dolby handles 7.1 is much more "idiot" proof than the way in which DTS has enabled an increased channel count.

I'm curious the differences and how it's better. I know there is the 6.1 ES flag issue with some receivers/players. Is that what you are referring to or is there something specific to discrete 6.1 and 7.1 encodes?
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post #22 of 215
8/17/09 at 8:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davcole View Post

I'm curious the differences and how it's better. I know there is the 6.1 ES flag issue with some receivers/players. Is that what you are referring to or is there something specific to discrete 6.1 and 7.1 encodes?

I didn't say better. But yes, specific to 6.1 discrete and 7.1 encodes, and more specifically with how they deal with legacy 5.1 playback.

However, the DTS feature of speaker remapping is overly complicated with it's mixing coefficients and, quite frankly, do we really need 7 different surround speaker layouts? It's, IMO, an over engineered feature, and is confusing even for the professionals.... recall the issues with the early decoders and PS3 initial DTS-HD MA decoder?

Just my opinion and I'm not saying it's bad.. just "feature and option" packed, which makes the process a little more convoluted.

IMO, Dolby's down mix to 5.1 is much more straight forward, and fairly simplistic in it's implementation.



That's about as simple as you get.

I still don't find the need to have multiple 7.1 configurations... once again, just my .02.
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post #23 of 215
8/17/09 at 9:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I'm just glad that most studios have almost exclusively gone lossless, which is good for everybody.

This I think is really the main takeaway.

If there really is a Sony (and possibly Warner) move to DTS-MA happening, however, it's sort of a shame for TrueHD since they never really consistently pushed the format to the wall with 16-bit tracks and 448kbps embedded AC3 riders being far more common than they should have been. How many DTS-MA 16-bit tracks w/ 768kbps cores have we seen in the States? Yeah, not very many...

EDIT: And just to clarify, every TrueHD track on Blu-ray does have an embedded lossy, backwards-compatible AC3 stream interleaved with it that can be decoded by legacy receivers when the TrueHD track is selected. Although it does not form a part of the lossless data as does the DTS-HD core, operationally-speaking the two schemes are equivalent. The redundant, separately selectable AC3 tracks provided by Warner apparently confuse the situation for many people, but are not necessary and a single TrueHD track works the same as a single DTS-MA track in providing both lossless and lossy decoding options.
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post #24 of 215
8/17/09 at 10:00pm
To be honest, FilmMixer is the only qualified member out here, at the moment, who really knows about mixing and encoding but we consumers are spoiled by preference.

I am happy that Sony is about to gradually switch to DTS-HD MA. Thanks Sony for taking my vote into consideration. This is going to benefit folks with legacy AVRs who will soon be able to take full advantage of the core.

I know this ain't going to make any big impact but why settle for the second best when it's possible.
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post #25 of 215
8/17/09 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I didn't say better. But yes, specific to 6.1 discrete and 7.1 encodes, and more specifically with how they deal with legacy 5.1 playback.

However, the DTS feature of speaker remapping is overly complicated with it's mixing coefficients and, quite frankly, do we really need 7 different surround speaker layouts? It's, IMO, an over engineered feature, and is confusing even for the professionals.... recall the issues with the early decoders and PS3 initial DTS-HD MA decoder?

Just my opinion and I'm not saying it's bad.. just "feature and option" packed, which makes the process a little more convoluted.

IMO, Dolby's down mix to 5.1 is much more straight forward, and fairly simplistic in it's implementation.



That's about as simple as you get.

I still don't find the need to have multiple 7.1 configurations... once again, just my .02.

So what does it look like for DTS?
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post #26 of 215
8/17/09 at 10:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinema Squid View Post

This I think is really the main takeaway.

If there really is a Sony (and possibly Warner) move to DTS-MA happening, however, it's sort of a shame for TrueHD since they never really consistently pushed the format to the wall with 16-bit tracks and 448kbps embedded AC3 riders being far more common than they should have been. How many DTS-MA 16-bit tracks w/ 768kbps cores have we seen in the States? Yeah, not very many...

Which has nothing to do with the codec, and everything to do with the content providers (mainly WB, and we see how well they are doing with their video encodes ). But it has everything to do with perception.

I know where the Watchmen DTS-HD MA track "came from" so I don't think you can say that WB is switching at this point... I'd be surprised if it does happen.

I do think, in the overall scheme of things, that there really isn't anything too bad about it for Dolby, however.

They will still make, unit for unit, a royalty on every decoder sold, and have an almost monopolistic market outside of BR (i.e. Apples AAC, car DVD players/entertainment centers, etc..)

And that's not to mention their cinema products (Dolby Digital Cinema, Dolby 3D) or all of the encoders for broadcast.... not to mention the fact that they just brought Dolby Volume and PLIIz to market, products for which DTS has no analog, hence no additional licensing revenue.

The lack of DTS titles on DVD didn't stop manufacturers from incorporating the decoders in their players and decoders/AVR's/SSP's....

I just don't think that Dolby finds a relevant reason to try and push their codec when they will make the same amount of money if they do or don't.

All pure speculation and opinion on my part.

EDIT: I just saw the press release for DTS' 2nd quarter earnings:

Quote:
For the second quarter of 2009, DTS reported revenue of $24.2 million, and net income from continuing operations of $3.6 million, or $0.21 per diluted share. This compares to revenue of $12.8 million and net income from continuing operations of $1.4 million, or $0.07 per diluted share, reported in the second quarter of 2008. Excluding the settlement of litigation matters, adjusted revenues were in excess of $14 million for the second quarter of 2009. Second quarter 2009 results included $6.1 million in Zoran litigation expenses.

The second quarter of 2009 results included $1.4 million, or $0.5 per diluted share net of tax, in stock-based compensation expense and $225,000, or $0.01 per diluted share net of tax, in amortization of intangible assets associated with the Neural Audio business acquisition.

“Especially considering the difficult economic climate, we are pleased with our performance in the second quarter,” commented Jon Kirchner, president and CEO of DTS, Inc. “With the settlement of litigation matters with Zoran, we have taken another step forward in protecting consumers, our licensees, and our intellectual property, which we expect will contribute to the long-term growth of DTS’ business and the healthy development of the Blu-ray market.

“Also during the second quarter, we experienced encouraging activity in certain segments of the consumer electronics market, particularly those related to Blu-ray set-top products. With retail prices falling, content availability increasing and the pipeline of Blu-ray products growing, we are highly optimistic about our future.


Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO, Jul 30, 2009 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Dolby Laboratories, Inc. (NYSELB) today announced the Company's financial results for the third quarter of fiscal 2009. For the third quarter, Dolby reported total revenue of $171.2 million, compared to $154.3 million for the third quarter of fiscal 2008, an increase of 11 percent. Third quarter fiscal 2009 revenue included $21.6 million from three licensees for prior-period shipments. Third quarter net income was $51.1 million
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post #27 of 215
8/17/09 at 10:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToeNipples View Post

So what does it look like for DTS?

I don't have a copy of the DTS-HD Master Audio Suite at home for screen shots... I'll see if I can get you some.
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post #28 of 215
8/17/09 at 10:58pm
To keep FM from having to find screen shots of the MAS:

MAS

There are interactive MAS demos at that link.
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post #29 of 215
8/17/09 at 11:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

*laughs*

So true. Personally, I'd be happier if they went back to using PCM instead of "lossless" anything. But that's me and we are all wacky in our own ways.

Mmmmmm...... 24bit/96khz 7.1.

hehe.. that's taking the crazy to the extreme.. "I want PCM"

wait.. i want PCM not lossless? arrghh.. your logic bomb has truly blown me away..

now i just want to join the insane bandwagon.. i want 1536Khz, 256bit 10.2 channel audio.. and the video? well of course i want that to be a 8kb/s MPEG2 encode that just looks like a bunch of blurry artifacts floating around the screen.

*cluck* *cluck*
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post #30 of 215
8/17/09 at 11:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I still don't find the need to have multiple 7.1 configurations... once again, just my .02.

I guess its future proofing for when people can move their screens to the left or right of their seating position, but can't move their speaker set-ups. So they select "Screen Position Left(or Right)" at home.

That one beats the hell out of me. Someone had to ask for it though or else it probably wouldn't be there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I know where the Watchmen DTS-HD MA track "came from" so I don't think you can say that WB is switching at this point... I'd be surprised if it does happen.

What happened. Did Snyder threaten to make an even longer
cut?
It looks like Observe and Report will have TrueHD, I would guess that the new Harry Potter would be the final word.

The HBO and Warner Music(Group?) BDs are technically proficient, but the big cheese can't do it.
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I do think, in the overall scheme of things, that there really isn't anything too bad about it for Dolby, however.

Not at all. And I do want that new thing they have for TV commercials.

So everybody wins...except anyone who has bought more than one Blu-ray from Warner Bros.
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Originally Posted by fuzz! View Post

now i just want to join the insane bandwagon.. i want 1536Khz, 256bit 10.2 channel audio.. and the video? well of course i want that to be a 8kb/s MPEG2 encode that just looks like a bunch of blurry artifacts floating around the screen.

*cluck* *cluck*

I want full 360 3-D sound, none of that "beaming into your head" garbage.
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