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Surge Protector recommendations - Page 18

post #511 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by salmonsc View Post

Wow. What a complete tosser!

Wow. Another sheep!
post #512 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

Wow. Another sheep!

Really? I think not. Just someone with a fully functioning BS detector.
post #513 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by salmonsc View Post

Really? I think not. Just someone with a fully functioning BS detector.

So...what do you have to add, refute, or dispute?
post #514 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

G Rex can you please post a link to that audiogon section? Sounds interesting.


Never saved it. I will see if I can dig it up.
post #515 of 774
If you guys dont mind, I'd like all of your opinions and experiences between Brickwall versus SurgeX surge eliminators?

They both don't use mov's which is good and which is best for HT? Talking to the Brickwall service rep on the phone he said both the Brickwall and SurgeX use the same 'Series Mode' technology but the SurgeX has some additional filtering features.

The units from Brickwall I like are the:

http://brickwall.thomasnet.com/item/...|1001|3001003x

and

http://brickwall.thomasnet.com/item/...|1001|3001003x

versus the SurgeX SX1115RT:

http://surgex.com/products/sx1115rt.html
post #516 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by salmonsc View Post

Really? I think not. Just someone with a fully functioning BS detector.

So you feel. Therefore you know? Same reason why so many Americans sent so many good soldiers to an unnecessary death. When honest people were saying Saddam's WMDs were only speculation, then your BS detector was also lying to you. At what point do you learn from your mistakes? Those using BS detectors also believe lies about contaminated grounds and about series mode filters that make surges magically disappear.

I have a friend who loves people using BS detectors. It made selling scams so profitable. His stories were always amusing.

Essential for best protection per dollar are MOV based protectors connected to the only thing that does surge protection - single point earth ground. Only those educated by their BS detectors would, instead, believe retail propaganda and other lies - such as Saddam's WMDs. One is supposed to learn from history so as to not be deceived by their BS detector. Knowledge from emotions (ie a BS detector) makes scams so profitable.

An honest person first learns facts and numbers. Ie. specifications from the manufacturer's datasheets.
post #517 of 774
Don't know anything about the Brickwall equipment, but New Frontier Electronics (the SurgeX people) has a good reputation. Heck, Jim Brown wrote a paper for them.
post #518 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post

So you feel. Therefore you know? Same reason why so many Americans sent so many good soldiers to an unnecessary death. When honest people were saying Saddam's WMDs were only speculation, then your BS detector was also lying to you. At what point do you learn from your mistakes? Those using BS detectors also believe lies about contaminated grounds and about series mode filters that make surges magically disappear.

You keep bringing up Saddam and wmd's to try to prove a point. I edited out my post to leave the politics out, you do the same please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post

An honest person first learns facts and numbers. Ie. specifications from the manufacturer's datasheets.

westom, you were given time and time again to contact Michael McCook at SurgeX and he would be more than happy to give you the numbers and data sheets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power Factor View Post

Westom,

What is your real name and company? I'm sure either Andy Benton(engineer you mention) or myself will remember you.

No need to be a paper tiger, pick up the phone.

Cheers,
Michael McCook

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power Factor View Post

I also suggest this group read the white papers of Jim Brown with Audio Systems Group: surgexinternational.com/pdf/PowerGround.pdf and Bill Whitlock with Jensen Transformers: jensen-transformers.com/apps_wp.html And of course the IEEE document C62.41 .

These professional papers will help everyone in this group understand AC power and grounding as well as the proper methods of audio/video system interfaces. Both Jim Brown and Bill Whitlock are available for direct communication.

Cheers,
Michael

SurgeX- We mitigate a surge at the end of a branch circuit what 3 miles of sky started...

Sorry for turning this into a political back and forth, but westom kept bringing a war and wmd's into a discussion about electricity.
post #519 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

So...what do you have to add, refute, or dispute?

Nada. I've seen enough. Quite happy to leave you folk to yourselves!
post #520 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

You keep bringing up Saddam and wmd's to try to prove a point.

The point was obvious. So many (if not a majority) will only believe what they are first told. Never ask for facts and numbers. And then get nasty when reality exposes their myth. Anyone could have learned this even from history - ie Saddam's WMDs or from a 'light at the end of the tunnel' during Nam.

Easy to identify those most easily deceived. They think in terms of liberals and conservatives. Therefore are routinely manipulated; told how to think. The intelligent people are moderates. With contempt for political extremists who, and again, are told how to think. Those easy deceived will not provide technical spec numbers - well published and in writing. The enemies of this nation are people who believe what they are told to believe. Who never think like a patriot. Never even ask damning questions. Who even forget principles taught in junior high science. Why are protection claims not even found in the manufacturer spec sheet? How does that magic box stop what three miles of sky could not. How does that magic box absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Oh. It only claim noise protection.

Hard facts, fundamental science principles, citations, and the always required numbers. Where are your Surgex numbers?
Quote:


And what's the name of this "friend" so we can contact him?

Last time I talked to him, he was headed for jail. He made too much money telling the naive what to think. So many people only believe what they are told rather than ask damning questions - demand the always required facts and numbers.

So where are those Surgex specs you must have before ever recommending the Surgex? Which is what moderates do to not be a dumb and easily manipulated liberal or conservative.

If your Surgex does as claimed, then we never waste time on third party hearsay. You post manufacturer spec numbers that claim that protection. And you cannot. Surgex protects from surges that typically do no damage. Instead, hearsay (not even in writing) is promoted as fact.

A wire inside a Surgex also bypasses the filter. Why do I repeat this and you ignore it? That wire is also how surges can find earth destructively via 'Surgex protected' appliances.

Nothing stops a destructive surge. Nothing. Surgex claims to stop and absorb surges.

Others are easily deceived as to buy a power strip protector for $hundreds. Since it is called a 'line conditioner', then many *know* it must do more? Another example of people who did not learn from history, Saddam's mythical WMDs, or by asking damning questions.

Surgex, et al are recommended series mode filters to eliminate noise problems. When manipulating the naive, then an MOV lie or ground contamination myth are invented. MOVs are some of the best protectors. But only when a protector is properly designed with the always - as in there is no exception - always required connection to earth. Ground contamination? Destructive surges exist because it connects to earth. If the surge exists, then ground is always 'contaminated'.

The Surgex protection is only promoted in sales brochures and hearsay. Not in anything that an engineer (or moderate) always needs to have a fact.

Learn from Saddam's WMDs. Extremists, ordered to believe, knew Saddam had WMDs. Those using basic concepts even taught in junior high science did not fall for that myth. Informed thinkers (with contempt for all liberal and conservative propaganda) need supporting facts and numbers - the reasons why - before knowing anything. If Surgex does effective protection, then you are quoting manufacturer spec numbers that say so. No numbers posted because, well, that is also why so many so hated humanity as to believe Saddam had WMDs. Where are those Surgex spec numbers? Not provided when proof is found in hearsay (talk to so-and-so or believe a wacko politician - same thing).
post #521 of 774
This was posted to me in PM by a qualified electrician, his name will be kept hidden so I'm not plagiarizing.

[quote]"Westom argues about surge protection in every part of the forum and I have seen his posts many times before. He is correct in that MOVs are a valid form of protection if used at the service entrance of a home or building where the diverted surge energy goes straight to earth ground. And I agree that this should be done in every home/ building if possible.

A whole house surge protection unit will help reduce all surges coming into the home from the power lines. But what happens if the surge comes from in the home? Like when a motor turns off or on and lights dim/ brighten. This is where individual surge protectors can help or if there is no whole house protection. Typically surges from within the home aren't as damaging as the ones coming from the power lines but sometimes can still cause problems.

Power strip surge protectors that use MOVs divert the surge energy to the ground wire and if the ground wire goes directly to the service panel it can be effective protection, if the wire is not too long and has too much resistance. The problem with this is not all ground wires go directly to the service panel. Often on a circuit there are many outlets and this diverted surge energy can enter other outlets on the circuit and travel up to equipment through their ground wire. Most equipment's transformers will lessen the surge so it is not harmful but that is not always true depending on the circuit and size of the surge.

The other problem with diverting a surge to ground is low voltage lines like cable, phone, sat, etc. might be affected. In the ideal world all these low voltage lines would be grounded at the service entrance with the electrical ground. All the grounds would be "bonded". Of course this isn't the ideal world and here in New England houses have had electricity long before telephone, internet, TV, etc. existed. When these lines were added into homes these low voltage providers often connect their low voltage lines to the most convenient ground they can find. Which may be the ground from any circuit, a separate earth ground not bonded to the electrical earth ground, water pipes, etc.

So now a diverted surge could potentially go directly the the ground of a low voltage line. When this happens instead of a transformer it might have to go through it goes directly to circuitry. Most circuitry is 3-12V so it doesn't take much of a surge to damage the circuitry.

This is the reason UL recommends not using a surge protector that diverts to ground with interconnected equipment such as computers, AV equipment, etc. Because if diverted energy gets through to a circuit whether from the ground on the outlet or a low voltage ground it is likely to do damage. The UL rating system uses the term contaminates ground as part of their rating system.

So what does SurgeX do? It holds the energy briefly and slowly releases it on the neutral wire. That way it never touches the ground wire and whatever it diverts is done slowly so the voltage never gets too high to be damaging. I don't know exact
numbers it uses but here is an example. Let's say we have 1000 volts of diverted energy, with an MOV this would be sent to the ground wire in 1 millisecond. With a Series mode it is sent to the neutral wire of 100 volts over 10 milliseconds.

One disadvantage to MOVs is that they deteriorate over time where there reaction time is slower and not as much energy can be diverted. Their Joule rating is the maximum energy they can divert over the life of the product, so whether it comes from one big surge or many small ones once its energy is used up they are no longer effective. So they should be replaced periodically. With a whole house protector I'd say once every 10 years is fine unless you know it took some big hits or are in an exceptionally prone area to surges like Florida which is probably lightning capitol of the country.

These specs are given by the manufacturer of the MOVs and are well known. Don't look for the specs from Panamax, monster, or any other manufacturer of consumer equipment. They'll just give yo the Joule rating. You have to look at who made the part because I don't think Panamax, Tripplite, monster or any other consumer manufacturer of surge protectors makes their own parts.

Anyway, I try to avoid any conflicts on the forum. I'm happe to educate when I can but sometimes the conflicts are just not worth the time:-) It is tough for members to find out 'who is who' and which party has the more correct information. for instance I may work as an installer now. I'm one of the owners of our company and I have an engineering degree in laser engineering. so I understand a little bit about power but my degree isn't in electrical engineering but basic power requirements are really basic and nothing here is beyond the basics."[End quote]
post #522 of 774
Interesting read. I'm fairly certain though that the SurgeX units per their specs don't divert the surge to ground or neutral.
post #523 of 774
Huh.

I think I'm on the same planet as Westom.

My big concern is external surges.

I'm leaning toward the Easton residential surge 'diverter'.

Thanks for posting that Oppopioneer.
post #524 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post
Huh.

I think I'm on the same planet as Westom.

My big concern is external surges.

I'm leaning toward the Easton residential surge 'diverter'.

Thanks for posting that Oppopioneer.
It's even better to do both so you get double protection, put in a protector at the service entrance and a SurgeX downstream to your equipment.
post #525 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
Interesting read. I'm fairly certain though that the SurgeX units per their specs don't divert the surge to ground or neutral.
That's correct, SurgeX doesn't use mov's and their products don't divert energy to ground or neutral.
post #526 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
This was posted to me in PM by a qualified electrician, his name will be kept hidden so I'm not plagiarizing.
Finally a decent post...

FWIW if your sensitive equipment is not on the same branch circuit as an offending device, like a motor, and your have a whole-house surge protective device, your sensitive equipment has the same protection as if the surge originated outside the house. In my case, I have a whole-house device at the service entrance, and all my AV gear is on a separate circuit.
post #527 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
...SurgeX doesn't use mov's and their products don't divert energy to ground or neutral.
I am not sure that quite accurate. As I understand it, the products store the energy from the surge and slowly release it to the neutral in a way that does not result in a significant perturbation of the neutral. But the key point is true, they don't contaminate the ground.
post #528 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
It's even better to do both so you get double protection, put in a protector at the service entrance and a SurgeX downstream to your equipment.
Stage 1 and Stage 2, agreed.
post #529 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
It's even better to do both so you get double protection, put in a protector at the service entrance and a SurgeX downstream to your equipment.
But for me the question is: with a good whole-house device, and a dedicated circuit for my AV gear, do I need the extra protection given the inherent ability of the gear to withstand surges to some degree?
post #530 of 774
Colm I don't work for SurgeX or have their data, you'll have to contact the expert Michael McCook who posted his phone number who can give you all the information you need because there is a lot I am ignorant on what a downstream surge eliminator can do and benefit from. Often times on here people want to bait amateurs into these types of questions and when the amateur can't respond back then the person asking the question says the product is b.s..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power Factor View Post


I also suggest this group read the white papers of Jim Brown with Audio Systems Group: surgexinternational.com/pdf/PowerGround.pdf and Bill Whitlock with Jensen Transformers: jensen-transformers.com/apps_wp.html And of course the IEEE document C62.41 .

These professional papers will help everyone in this group understand AC power and grounding as well as the proper methods of audio/video system interfaces. Both Jim Brown and Bill Whitlock are available for direct communication.

Cheers,
Michael

SurgeX- We mitigate a surge at the end of a branch circuit what 3 miles of sky started...
post #531 of 774
Yes.
post #532 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

This was posted to me in PM by a qualified electrician, his name will be kept hidden so I'm not plagiarizing.
Quote:


"Westom argues about surge protection in every part of the forum and I have seen his posts many times before. He is correct in that MOVs are a valid form of protection if used at the service entrance of a home or building where the diverted surge energy goes straight to earth ground. And I agree that this should be done in every home/ building if possible. ...

First UL only tests for one thing. Does that unit harm humans? Any UL device can completely fail. And that is completely acceptable to UL as long as the failure does not threaten human life.

Second, dimming is low voltage. A 120 volt protector is inert - does nothing - until that voltage well exceeds 300 volts. That is not dimming or brightening lights; tens of volts changes. And that protector is only for events that are microseconds. Microsecond events never cause light intensity variation. No relationship exists between what a protector does and changing light intensity.

Third, if that surge is inside on any wire, either a plug-in protector must connect it back to the same earth ground that the surge ignored when entering. Or what really happens. That protector simply gives the surge even more paths to find earth destructively via appliances. Why do I also know those so many IEEE papers and other sources are correct? Because that is also what we discovered too many times by tracing the surge current through buildings and equipment. In every case, the surge entered because a single point earth ground sometimes met code and was always defective for surge protection.

Will other low voltage lines be affected? Of course. Every incoming wire - the low voltage telephone, cable, and satellite dish - also must make a short connection to single point ground. And why any surge permitted inside the building will simply transfer onto those wires. More destructive paths to earth. Once that surge is permitted inside a building, then every wire (and air ducts, water pipes, etc) all become potential conductors or a destructive surge.

Code requires every single low voltage wire inside every cable to make that earthing connection. If ethernet enters the building, that means eight 'whole house' projectors (in one package). Surge protection means that earth connection must also exceed code requirements.

Fourth, too many electrician compromise protection by making the installation look neat. Nylon ty wrap all wires together to look good and to induce surges on those other wires. Clean sharp wire bends which only compromise protection. Reasons why that is bad - subverts the connection to earth - is based in electrical concepts not taught to electricians. Homeowner should inspect his surge protection system - the earthing - to confirm an electrician (telco installer, etc) has not made a serious mistake.
post #533 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

This was posted to me in PM by a qualified electrician, his name will be kept hidden so I'm not plagiarizing.
Quote:


... "One disadvantage to MOVs is that they deteriorate over time where there reaction time is slower and not as much energy can be diverted. Their Joule rating is the maximum energy they can divert over the life of the product,

Common myths promoted by lies in places such as HowStuffWorks. First, MOVs do deteriorate. That is a fact provided without numbers. To have reality means including numbers.

To fail catastrophically, power strip protectors grossly undersize their joules. Then when a failure occurs (when the appliance is left to defend itself from the surge), the naive consumer recommends that scam. One reason why Monster (a company famous for its scams) is also selling plug-in protectors.

All appliances contain superior protection. A surge too tiny to overwhelm the appliance, also easily destroys the protector. A massive sales increase result when people use only observation to know something.

Catastrophic failure (including failures indicated by its light) is completely unacceptable - as even made bluntly obvious in MOV datasheets. Such failures exceed "Absolute Maximum Parameters". Completely unacceptable.

No protector must fail catastrophically. Normal failure mode for a properly designed MOV protector is ‘degradation’. Its voltage (Vb) changes by 10%. A normal failure mode cannot and is never reported by its indicator light. Indicated failure implies a protector was probably useless when bought. A profit center.

How much is required to degrade a protector? One MOV datasheet describes testing:
> The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied
> 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.

But again – numbers. An example of what a protector must do when properly sized. More reasons why a homeowner spends less money for a properly sized ‘whole house’ protector.

Or include numbers from the IEEE Green Book entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke
> per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...
Ballpark numbers for discussing the life expectancy of effective protectors. MOVs fail mostly because that protector was a profit center; not surge protection. Spend $7 in a grocery store to have a similar plug-in protector circuit (and similar specs) so often hyped by Monster for $100.

MOVs fail quickly when that gets the naive to recommend an obscenely profitable protector. MOVs failure mostly promoted when one forgets that numbers must always be included in any statement or recommendation. Recommendations without numbers is why junk science exists.

Second, he is right about MOVs being so effective when connected short to earth. But did not learn other critically important facts and numbers.

Why do Panamax, Monster, Belkin, etc provide a joules number. They do not claim protection from destructive surges. Would rather not provide a number that says inferior protection. That number, found in the datasheets from all MOV protector manufacturers, is provided only because UL requires it. To do human safety UL testing, a manufacturer must declare up front to UL what is inside. Meanwhile, those protectors make no other protection claims.

How do hundreds of joules (near zero) in those power strip protectors absorb surges that a hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. Tripplite et al do not claim effective protection. Those joules numbers say so. UL required number says it is near zero surge protection. A power strip manufacturer will not say anything more. Otherwise you might learn it is an ineffective protector; only a profit center.

Two posts that provide many ‘ignored’ numbers for MOV protectors. Third will discuss how a Surgex works.
post #534 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

This was posted to me in PM by a qualified electrician, his name will be kept hidden so I'm not plagiarizing.
Quote:


"So what does SurgeX do? It holds the energy briefly and slowly releases it on the neutral wire. That way it never touches the ground wire and whatever it diverts is done slowly so the voltage never gets too high to be damaging. I don't know exact numbers it uses but...

Well let's add numbers and basic electrical concepts.

First, too many think electricity flows into a protector like water into a sink. Nonsense. Electricity never worked that way. If 100 amps is flowing into a Surgex, then same 100 amps is also flowing simultaneously out and into a connected appliance. Otherwise no electricity - no surge - exists. It is called electricity. Same current flowing from a cloud must also be flowing simultaneously into earth. Nothing stops or absorbs that current. Same current into a Surgex is also outing into the adjacent appliance.

If 20,000 amps would flow through a (electrically conductive) wooden church steeple. Then a same 20,000 amps also flows to earth via a lightning rod and ground wire. What is different? Because wood is less conductive, then voltage increases. More energy dissipates destructively in that church. Because a wire to a lightning rod is more conductive, then near zero voltage means near zero energy. No
damage.

Same applies to a Surgex. Same destructive surge flowing through the appliance is what is flowing into the Surgex. Voltage increases as necessary so that current will still flow.

Let's say a Surgex voltage increases 800 volts during a surge. Same current means a surge voltage is maybe 5000 volts into the appliance. And 5,800 volts into the Surgex. Where is protection?

Second, electricians understand wire resistance'. But surge protection means one must learn about wire impedance'. A concept taught to first year engineering students is not taught to electricians. A 50 foot Romex cable from receptacle to breaker box is well less than 0.2 ohms resistance. And may be 120 ohm impedance to a surge. What happens to a Surgex if a trivial 100 amp surge is flowing down that neutral or safety ground wire? 100 amps times 120 ohms means 12,000 volts. The Surgex and appliance will be at something less than 12,000 volts. Where is the protection? Surgex at 12,000 volts. Appliance at 11.200 volts.

Same is why a protector must be so short (ie less than 10 feet') to earth ground. Every foot longer means higher impedance - less protection.

Why do telcos want protectors very close to earth. And up to 50 meters (150 feet) separated from electronics? Wire impedance - that separation - increases protection.

Third, where does the Surgex discharge that energy once the surge ends? The best path to earth is still through that nearby appliance. Series mode filter simply discharges current through the most conductive path to earth - that already compromised and now more conductive appliance.
post #535 of 774
westom, you're missing the point, I believe what you are doing is taking some things out of context and interpreting them to your own spin and lack of knowledge of the inner workings of SurgeX products. Michael McCook has offered many chances to call him and he will tell you and probably send you info on their numbers, data sheets and how they achieved it.

No one on here and no one at SurgeX that I have talked to has ever said their products are bullet proof and will stop a direct lightning strike, nothing really on this earth can protect your electronics against a powerful enough direct multiple lightning strikes. SurgeX decreases the odds of having your equipment damaged, so does a whote house surge protector. SurgeX employees even admit that it's better to protect digital coaxial cables right where the copper wire enters the house. The whole point is that a Series Mode protection is superior downstream at the wall outlet than a mov based device is.
post #536 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

No one on here and no one at SurgeX that I have talked to has ever said their products are bullet proof and will stop a direct lightning strike, nothing really on this earth can protect your electronics against a powerful enough direct multiple lightning strikes.

Protection from direct lightning strikes was routine decades ago. But you still know nothing can protect electronics? Do you also cure cancer by praying? It is not insult or mockery. A serious question about how you know when somehow electricity will flow into a Surgex like water into a sink? Please learn how electricity works.

Electronics atop the Empire State Building suffer 23 direct lightning strikes annually - without damage. Electronics atop the WTC suffered 40. Standard knowledge that somehow you know is wrong?

A direct lightning strike is typically 20,000 amps. One 'whole house' protector properly earthed so that 50,000 amps connects harmlessly to earth. How many amps does that Surgex absorb? That would be asking for manufacturer spec numbers that you cannot provide.

Let's see. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does the Surgex absorb? This question guarantees you will not provide those numeric specs. Otherwise an expensive Surgex is not effective protection. Damning numbers you will again ignore.

Or learn from US government researchers who do this stuff using science without hearsay. It has only been posted what - eight times? When you cannot dispute hard facts, you ignore them. And so reality is reposted:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting
> the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if
> grounding is not done properly.

Where is its required, short wire to single point earth ground? Does not exist. From professionals who actually make direct lightning strikes harmless: "The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly." No wonder that Surgex has no numbers for surge protection. At what point does the word "useless" become obvious?

Where is that manufacturer spec that claim protection? Never provided. It is a superb noise filter (unlike so many Furman products). And is not effective surge protection. Nor claims to be. So manufacturer spec numbers that claim protection? Cannot and will not be provided. Obviously.

No earth ground means no effective protection. Routine is protection from direct lightning strikes as demonstrated by telephone COs in every town. They also do not waste money on anything that miraculously stops or absorbs surges. Instead their solutions have numeric specs and are earthed. Why? Because routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage ... which must be denied if promoting Surgex for surge protection.
post #537 of 774
Can you please state here and now if you really believe it, that NONE of the engineers at SurgeX and the engineers with companies who quite successfully rely on SurgeX and others have absolutely no concept of what they are doing?

That IS what you are saying. Which is the more logical situation, that YOU may not understand the actual working as much as you THINK you do or that a few thousand engineers in all fields of electronics-based endeavors are all 100% wrong?

If you feel YOU have the correct information and EVERYONE of these engineers is wrong, then you must also believe that SurgeX etal are making 100% false claims and for the safety of the world YOU have a moral responsibility to stand up and call them liars and do everything in your power to correct the situation.

Why not start manufacturing your OWN equipment?

BTW if you believe that an after market whole house surge protector can handle 50,000 amp lightning hit you are sadly mistaken. The interrupting max on home owner and even most industrial breakers is 10,000A and is so marked on the device and panel.

A 50,000 amp strike would pop the typical ground wire like a fuse.

Perhaps you should take a look at a substation lightning diversion system.
post #538 of 774
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

BTW if you believe that an after market whole house surge protector can handle 50,000 amp lightning hit you are sadly mistaken. The interrupting max on home owner and even most industrial breakers is 10,000A and is so marked on the device and panel.

If the device has the NRTL rating, then it can safely handle the surge as rated. It is as simple as that.

Most homowner panels are rated for 10kA, but this rating is for a duration which is much longer than the typical surge. And most industrial breakers rated for 480V begin at the 12kA range and continue up to 300kA with the majority of them in the 18-65kA range.

Quote:
A 50,000 amp strike would pop the typical ground wire like a fuse.

No, the ground wire would be fine. Cabling and bus can handle a great deal of current for short periods of time.

.
post #539 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

BTW if you believe that an after market whole house surge protector can handle 50,000 amp lightning hit you are sadly mistaken. The interrupting max on home owner and even most industrial breakers is 10,000A and is so marked on the device and panel.

AV Doogle demonstrates what an informed or educated person does before posting. Or read numbers from any Standards book. For example, what is a maximum lightning strike carried by an 18 AWG (lamp cord) wire? Something less than 60,000 amps. Wire on most any 50,000 amps 'whole house' protector from responsible companies such as Intermatic, General Electric, Cutler-Hammer, etc is about four times thicker. Facts are what an honest person learns before accusing.

How difficult is this thing called learning? Gizmologist could simply walk into any Lowes or Home Depot. Read spec numbers on a 50,000 amp Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector. View diameter of its wires. But that means learning numbers before posting denials, mockery, and disparagment.
post #540 of 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post

Something less than 60,000 amps. Wire on most any 50,000 amps 'whole house' protector from responsible companies such as Intermatic, General Electric, Cutler-Hammer, etc is about four times thicker. Facts are what an honest person learns before accusing.

How difficult is this thing called learning? Gizmologist could simply walk into any Lowes or Home Depot. Read spec numbers on a 50,000 amp Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector. View diameter of its wires. But that means learning numbers before posting denials, mockery, and disparagment.

westom, which specific Cutler Hammer model do you recommend? Can you post a link to the specific model please so I can read the specs and see the installation guide for my setup?
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