Surge Protector recommendations - Page 21

hehe

I can't find much on 'UL A-1-1', other than this throw-away blog post, linked by some random surgex employee earlier in this thread

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/ma...ppressor_work/

Looks like a SurgeX lobbyist got some legislation passed.

Edit - not a random blog post, but an 'online' article authored by the chief engineer at ZeroSurge, a company that pays money to SurgeX, for licensing of their patented technology.

Here is quote from that author, J. Rudy Harford:

"With series filter technology, plug-in point-of-use filters are available that can repeatedly eliminate damaging surge energy and noise.

This eliminates the electrician-installed service entrance and branch circuit protectors needed by the shunt MOV technology."

http://www.cepro.com/article/the_myt...rge_protection

All SurgeX endorsements are either from manufacturers or salesmen.

I think Muncy comes the closest, to an independent endorsement.

But I wouldn't be surprised if he's paid by SurgeX, for his endorsement.

I think I need to re-read this thread, armed with new information.

Don't know about the UL part of it. SurgeX and the other series mode manufacturers do hype the following or something similar:

"Federal Guidelines: Grade A, Class 1, Mode 1 (CID A-A-55818)"

A little research on the internet yields the following.

CID stands for "commercial item description". CIDs are not guidelines on how to pick something. The are simply government lists of products that can be purchased through a centralized purchasing organization, in this case the General Services Administration or the Defense Logistics Agency. As such, it is simply a classification system. It doesn't necessarily mean that A-1-1 is always better than another classification. It all depends on what you need. If you need a three mode device with similar capabilities, you would get one with a A-1-2 classification. Likewise if you needed one with a higher voltage rating, because as Martzloff has pointed out lower is not always better, you would pick a different classification.

This CID was canceled in 2002. Apparently funding was reduced and more and more purchasing of many types of goods was being done directly with government credit cards. So many CIDs were canceled.

A check of a few manufacturers' listings on the UL site shows that series mode devices are not the only devices that could be classified A-1-1. There are single mode MOV based devices that could also be classified A-1-1. However, no new devices can be added to the CID because it no longer exists.

This CID only applied to 15A, 120V, single phase, 60Hz, plug-in or cord connected devices. So, it didn't even apply to 20A point-of-use devices, hard-wired devices, 3-phase devices, 50 Hz devices, 240V devices, etc. That leaves out a lot of the series mode products.

Community and Sanecore Ltd, our Chinese distributor and business partner, hosted the first-ever Syn-Aud-Con seminar in China. Over 50 students learned the “Core Principles of Audio,” Syn-Aud-Con’s flagship course, with simultaneous bullet-speed translation performed by Tao Zhang, a member of Community’s TAG Team.

Community is a proud sponsor of Syn-Aud-Con, the industry’s leading resource for real world audio education. For more than 30 years, Syn-Aud-Con has been providing practical, in-depth training on the principles of audio and acoustics to sound professionals all over the world. For more information on Syn-Aud-Con courses, visit www.synaudcon.com.

http://www.communitypro.com/index.php

So there is quite a few sponsors who sponsor Syn-Aud-Con.


"Bought off" ? or were they impressed with the product so much they were willing to put their name to it and like being associated with it?


I don't speak for Michael McCook or anyone, but what numbers do you want to see and once you see them will you know what they mean and how to properly analyze them?


Again, what are these "numbers"?

And if you don't like or believe the product's claims then it's your right to not buy it, boycott it then. I bought a SurgeX. I've also talked to two SurgeX engineers and they were very honest, they said there isn't any device on this earth that will protect a electronic device from a direct hundreds of thousands of volt lightning strike, so if you're trying to set the bar unbelievably high for a company that's a great accomplishment for that company and will probably make them feel really good.

But why haven't you shown this same type of passion and agressive indignance about the APC, Monster, Panamax, Triplite mov based surge suppressors? Why this passionate search for the secret answers of the magic bullet theory of SurgeX? Same goes with you Colm?


Do you own a GM or Chrysler/Dodge car or have stock in any companies, take any prescription drugs, use any banks? If you did than the congress and Obama Administration gave them a record amount of tax payers money in the form of corporate payoffs aka bailouts aka stimulus aka corporate welfare, so if you vote or voted for Obama or any of these other politicians who voted for it then the joke is on you and you never "questioned" anything.

Should people stop buying GMC Sierra trucks for the winter when J.D. Power Associates and Car And Driver Magazine ranks them #1 for many years when they recieved stimulus money? But let's say hypothetically that GM paid J.D. and C&D to pick them as #1, but why are they such popular trucks and have the most reliable transmission with the most torque and payload in it's class?

I'll buy Goldline regardless of who sponsored it or who is getting paid to endorse it, I'll buy Goldline because of that companies results and what they offer, not who sponsored it. The specific companies track record and results is what matters.

Tiger Woods endorses Nike, they pay him, he cheated on his wife with a bunch of escorts (I don't respect him for that) I buy Nike, I like Nike, I still own the same pair of Nike shoes that I bought in 1994 that have held up, I have Nike shirts that are over 20+ years old.

Neurorad who do you currently work for and who have you previously worked for? I am not associated in any way with the surge eliminator/suppressor/power conditioner industry, I don't market or sell any electrical products.

And Colm if you don't like SurgeX or trust them then don't buy them. I like SurgeX and will continue to buy their products.

Carnegie Hall seems to like their products.

At the end of the day the people and customers who have been tricked the most with the most marketing hype are people who buy mov based surge suppressors from APC, Monster, Panamax, Triplite because those companies spend far more on marketing then they actually put into R&D and sales reps at Best Buy, Office Max, Staples and many other electronic stores work on commission of those products.

I would like someone to post the marketing budgets of all the companies listed above and SurgeX included and see who spends more on marketing, false advertising, commission sales at retail stores on these products. But also post how much SurgeX pays it's own employees at their North Carolina factory and how much APC, Monster, Panamax, Triplite pay Chinese workers in overseas factories. Which company has better "worker's rights" and a more moral and ethical business strategy.

I don't like or dislike any of the series mode products. As I have stated before, I have no firm position on series mode devices. I have done quite a bit of research on surges and surge protection. I have a reasonable understanding of the potential sources of damaging surges. I have a reasonable understanding of what connected equipment can withstand. I have a reasonable understanding of how MOV devices function and how to apply them safely. I am developing an understanding of series mode devices.

I do dislike what I consider misleading advertising, such as the reference to the A-1-1 classification of CID A-A-55818 which might lead an uninformed reader. But this kind of misleading advertising is hardly unique in the marketing world. And it really doesn't affect my decision one way or the other.

I will buy whatever is appropriate. At this point I am trying to separate the marketing hype from the facts. I have posted two straight forward questions I would like answered about the benefits of series mode protection that would help me make that decision. So far, I don't have an answer.

I agree with you on this, but because the whole need for surge-protective devices has been over-hyped, not because of the technology. If one could do a cost benefit analysis of surge-protective devices, I think you would find that in the USA we spend, on average, far more every year on preventing surge damage than the potential cost of the surge damage.

Just curious. Are the products sold by SurgeX International manufactured in NC also? I like the idea of employing US workers at fair wages.

Not to defend any company's ethics, but because of competitive pressures, sometimes it comes down to employing workers in China, or employing no one. Even Chinese labor is becoming too expensive. Chinese and other companies are starting to move manufacturing to other countries.

Oppo there are numerous sources for IEC cables. I buy most of mine from Allied electronics but also Mouser, Digikey, Futurlec, Calrad, and any industrial parts supplier. I use them for computer control equipment and audio/video gear I rent, repair and design.

American manufacturers include Belden, Carol, West Penn, American and numerous others. The max current an IEC chassis connector can handle is 15 A. No one designs a device using IEC connectors that will max out the connector's ampacity, therefor any cable that is larger than 14 awg is a complete waste. Usually the device current draw is limited to about 8A max by design.

Now he's at RC spewing the same crap. http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...ad.cgi?23557,2

Either he can post science, numbers, and facts that provide useful information. Or spiteful post after disparaging remarks. Those who know the least routinely resort to mockery and insults.

People without knowledge - without any facts, numbers, citations, or electrical training - love to recite what only the most conned would believe. Take delight in posting disparaging remarks and personal insults. Insults easily get the least educated to believe it.

Where does WhiteVan (or McCook) post even one fact or number? Every responsible reader here should be demanding those manufacturer specification numbers. But he cannot. He is an expert because he feels' he knows. Numbers for ineffective protectors do not exist.

Surgex is a series mode filter. A filter no different than what is already inside every power supply. Series mode means that filter will (magically) stop and absorb surges. Works when noise transients (not surges) are solved. Useless when the transient has so much energy as to blow through that filter - like a flood through any undersized dam.

Salesmen quickly learn to never post numbers. As any good lawyer knows, avoid anything you don't already know the answer to. He will never post those specs. First because the actual numbers are damning. Second, because he has no idea what numbers are relevant.

Important when promoting a profit center is to always avoid hard facts. The most naive will believe anything when someone is a 'nice guy'. But the educated instead want reasons why - with numbers. Also called the manufacturer numeric specifications - which are never provided.

Or one can simply learn from damning questions. How does that Surgex stop what three miles of sky could not? It doesn't. How do hundreds of joules in a Surgex or surge protector absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. How to avoid such questions? Attack the messenger. Be spiteful and nasty. And never post manufacturer specs that would expose the con. WhiteVan, et al does that to keep you confused and ignorant.

Apparently it is his ego trip. In the tradition of Limbaugh, how to keep the better educated confused by using abusive attacks. And never post even one manufacturer spec number. I keep asking. Where are those spec numbers? He cannot provide what he does not comprehend - and what does not exist.

This was also posted over there:


http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...ad.cgi?23557,2

So avoid Monster!

In response to westom, this is from a AVS member who is a professional installer who owns his own business who shall remain nameless, so I'm not plagiarizing...

"So what does SurgeX do? It holds the energy briefly and slowly releases it on the neutral wire. That way it never touches the ground wire and whatever it diverts is done slowly so the voltage never gets too high to be damaging. I don't know exact numbers it uses but here is an example. Let's say we have 1000 volts of diverted energy, with an MOV this would be sent to the ground wire in 1 millisecond. With a Series mode it is sent to the neutral wire of 100 volts over 10 milliseconds."

It is interesting to note that it took no time at all for the guys there to realize that westom is clueless. One even went so far as to post that it looks like westom is a bot..re, hal9000.

Cheers, John

Hal9000... Remember NOMAD from Star Trek "faulty...error...analyze"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLRS91IG6Ik

The newer SurgeX series mode units do not divert to ground or neutral.

Youze can call me Roy...

And youze can call me Kirk..


But yaz duzzint hafta call me...Roykirk....


Happy holidays to all.


Cheers, John

Seriously, I'd like to see the numbers, and have them explained.

Right now, it seems to me, that the SurgeX units are only good for ringwave transients.

And, a whole-house SPD, at the service entrance, using MOVs, should be the first purchase.

And, plug-in SPDs, that use MOVs, at the outlets, should be avoided.

How do the SurgeX products fit into the UL 1449 3rd edition system? Are they UL 1449 3rd edition listed? Why not? What's the story behind that?

And, my apologies to J. Rudy Harford. He and Zero Surge hold several original patents to Series Mode Technology.

As this "debate" continues, Merry Christmas and or Happy Channukah to all.
Perhaps in 2011 actual science will prevail and the truth shall set us free.

Even single mode devices that only handle normal mode surges by shunting them to neutral?

That damage doesn't sound like it was caused by a surge. It sounds like it was caused by a sustained over-voltage condition. Most people who buy surge protective devices don't know the difference. Could have been caused by the neutral coming loose. Even a series mode device wouldn't have prevented it, although the series mode device itself might have survived if the voltage ratings of the parts inside it were high enough. MOV-based devices don't tolerate sustained over-voltage conditions. As Martzloff has pointed out most MOV-based device failures appear to be due to over-voltage conditions, not surges.

[quote]
[quote]
I posted the attachment a couple of years ago....Eaton has a great deal of information about TVSS and testing. http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r3/nashville.../2006/TVSS.pdf


They post only one of the specified standard tests for TVSS (SPD). I have not had time to contact their engineer for information on the missing tests.

Yes, this is your first line of defense. A high quality unit at the service entrance will enhance survival of all equipment downstream.

...depends upon the situation

They are not listed, have not been tested to 3rd edition as far as any information I have seen. This testing is expensive, not all manufacturers choose to have these tests performed. They also only list the products as being tested to adjunct 1449 and 1283 which is the test spec for a filtering device

 

UL 1283.pdf 10.16796875k . file

I would like to know why SurgeX hasn't yet put forth their design for UL 3rd Edition, I hope you guys can find out by contacting them, I think they're sick of me contacting them by now regarding other information, I haven't asked them about the 3rd Edition testing though, so please find out when you get some free time.

What is the specific test they put the products through in UL 3rd Edition testing and what requirements and standards have to to be met to achieve the UL 3rd Edition seal of approval?


Yes! Merry Christmas and Happy safe Holidays everyone!

Type 3 devices, those intended to be located no closer than 30' of wiring from the panel, are tested at 6000V, 3000A under UL 1449 3rd edition instead of 6000V, 500A under 2nd edition. Test is now done at the end of 30' of wiring, plus any cord on the device. Shouldn't be a problem passing because they already tout 6000V, 3000A. But the measured voltage protection rating (VPR) may be higher than the old suppressed voltage rating (SVR). The only thing I can imagine is they might be tweaking the design to keep that number down. Who knows? Other than that, it is just a matter of getting everything tested at a NRTL, they use Intertek which touts a faster turnaround time than UL, and relabeling to meet current requirements. Maybe the problem is just money?

The issue might be type 2 devices, those intended to be located closed than 30' of wiring from the panel. There is a new requirement for a nominal discharge current test. It is a stress test that purportedly more accurately reflects the real world. Manufacturer chooses a current level. Device is subjected to multiple surges and operation at maximum continuous operating voltage (MCOV) in between. VPR cannot vary by more than 10%. It may be that the design needs to be tweaked to meet this requirement at the current level they want.

Maybe they want to qualify all their devices as type 2 devices. 2011 NEC allows type 3 devices closer than 30' of wiring to the panel if they have passed type 2 testing.

Current listings can be found at Intertek under Electronic Systems Protection. Only thing the listing says is UL 1449.

Ouch! As a non-techie trying to glisten practical advice, reading these pages is making my head hurt It would be very helpful if each of the key folks involved here could summarize your answers to two basic questions (please pretend you're writing to a 80-yr old lady with no electrical background )

1) Specifically what level/type of protection do you suggest for a $1500-$2000 home entertainment investment? (i.e. I don't want to spend $500-$1000 to protect stuff that's not worth many multiples of that amount). I would need to hire an electrician for anything semi-complex (i.e. beyond plug-in devices).

2) Should I or should I not protect my Dish satellite receiver? As has already been stated, Dish recommends against plugging the satellite receiver into a SPD since they say it can interfere with proper functioning, whereas other people don't buy into that.

From a cost/benefit approach, the value of your equipment does not warrant spending a lot on protection from surges. The danger of surge damage is over-hyped and electrical devices are designed to withstand surges up to a certain level. If you can stand the loss if it ever happens, perhaps because of insurance, and can withstand the down time until the equipment is replaced, perhaps the best answer is no protection.

One thing that no one here seems to disagree with is if you own your own house, the best place to start is at the service entrance. Install a properly grounded whole-house device with a UL 1449 3rd edition 20kA In rating with the lowest voltage protection rating VPR you can get. It will cost maybe $50 to $250 plus installation. It will provide substantial protection not only for your AV gear, but also all the other electrical devices in your house. An example of such a device is the Cutler-Hammer CHSPUltra. Similar devices are available from other reputable companies like Square D, Leviton, etc.

If you don't own your own house, or you choose not to install a whole-house device because of cost or some other reason, you are looking at a point-of-use device, also called a type 3 device. Unfortunatey, there is no simple answer here.

Point-of-use devices come in two basic types, MOV-based and series mode. Most devices are MOV-based. Series mode devices avoid at least one technical issue common to MOV-based point-of-use devices. But they are more expensive that your budget appears to allow for. So, you are probably looking a purchasing a MOV-based device. MOV-based devices will work, but you need to apply them properly to avoid actually increasing the possibility of surge damage.

There are two flavors of MOV-base devices, ones that protect only against normal mode surges (the most important source of damaging surges) and those that protect against both normal mode surges and common mode surges (which are generally less of a threat). The ones that protect only against normal mode surges may be preferable for interconnected equipment. However, finding one may be difficult. Most devices protect against both modes of surges. Unfortunately, the way they do it causes the potential for damage to interconnected equipment in some cases if all the equipment is not properly protected. If you go that route you want one you can plug everything that is connected to the equipment you want to protect into, including any cables coming in from an antenna or your cable company. I don't have a recommendation, but I am sure someone will. They don't need to be very expensive.

Yes, you need to protect any equipment that is connected to any other equipment you want to protect, or at least protect the connection between them. A surge can travel from one device to another through the cables that connect them.

Great write-up and advice! Thank you! This is the type of practical and simple-to-follow advice that non-techies like me can understand and benefit from.

Thanks for the model suggestion for whole-house protection. I'm planning to get my electrician out to install one after the holidays, and am still trying to figure out which one to get. BTW - do these "whole house" systems also protect the TV and phone lines, or just the power lines? And I have a "mini panel" (under the main circuit box) with circuits tied to my Generac outside standby generator unit -- will I need another whole-house unit for it, or can a single unit be tied to both the main and generator circuit panels? Thanks!