Surge Protector recommendations - Page 23

This is the thanks one gets for posting observations on AVSF. A wisecrack from a person who tests/does nothing.

A colorimeter can also be used on an opaque/reflective surface. When we use large venue projectors, (Barco, DLP, Christie) on a 15x20 ft matte white or HD format surface screen, we frequently stack up to 3 projectors in specially designed rigs to superimpose the 3 images into one for an ultra intense image.

Black levels must be especially matched and as black as possible. BTW black is NOT the absence of a video image, it is a generated signal the same as all the other colors.

Each one has to be perfectly matched to the others to maintain registration sharpness and image color correct rendition. we also setup large venues with mulitple projectors and screens such as you see n concerts or the Emmys. Oscars etc. These are perfectly matched using reference materials.

Funny thing though, we can achieve all that using show generators hundreds of feet of 2/0 distro cables, portable distro centers, and the stock cables provided by the manufacturers.

So tell me, what size video display do you use? A sudden brightness drop on a projector with a very large screen is very noticeable. Of course objective testing is even better though but that doesn't mean he did not observe a brightness drop. Outlaw better to do the testing...

You know nothing about me...but I know that you have no idea what 'scientific method' is, nor do you have even the most basic understanding of electronics.

You're post is more of a joke than anything else, hence the laugh.

...and indicates a problem with your projectors power supply....although I'm not surprised that many of you don't understand this.

And the problem is NOT brand of the power cable.

I know, but my gear isn't the only thing on that circuit that the SurgeX is on, my recessed ceiling lights and hallway light are also on the same circuit as what the SurgeX is plugged into, and the question is whether or not the other things on that circuit are also effecting the SurgeX?

The only loads relevant to the 8A rating of your SurgeX device are the ones plugged into it. If the breaker on the SurgeX device is not tripping, you do not have a problem.

Ok, thanks

A couple of notes:
a] If the wire to the ground rod is in a metal conduit, then both ends of the conduit must be connected to the ground wire.
b] Bill Whitlock notes that having some of the equipment on surge suppressors can be dangerous to other interconnected equipment without surge suppressors.

see page 40
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/a...%20seminar.pdf

John - you obviously have a bias to the SurgeX products, if Mr. McCook knows you by name.

It is a positive bias, I might add.

The bold, red, increased font raises my suspicion that you are not completely truthful.

For example, what you said is true, but really, what is the reason for the short, straight pigtails of the SPD, at the service entrance?

Westom says to make sure the SPD is rated to 50K amps, and you say a direct strike means toast? IEEE is wrong in their rec?

You're speaking in half truths here, and I sense a bias.

What gives? You sticking up for your buddy, John?

What a very odd thing to say. You also know my name, you just used it. So, does this mean that I also have a bias towards you or what you state?

It seems odd to overlook the fact that I have put my name at the bottom of every post I have ever made here?


A positive bias towards what?


Well then, ask questions. It matters not to me whether you are suspicious, just what questions you might have..


Finally, an actual question.. Good.

MOV's will react to terminal voltages in less than roughly 500 picoseconds. The real problem is the inductance of the loop the MOV is in. The flying pigtail on a whole house SPD is the only method available for the device to see line to neutral transients. As such, how it is dressed in the panel will affect the loop inductance and the di/dt (rate of rise) of the current across the MOV. Hence, it's transient response.

Note that that limitation does not exist in the line to line absorption, as the blades are only an inch apart and they have an aspect ratio which increases the reluctance path... therefore decreasing the conductor self inductance...


You have stated three absolutely independent concepts here. You should have put some periods in.

Concept 1. spd at 50 kA... this is a recommendation, not an absolute. AND (in red to highlite the facts) it is the specification of the MOV to survive the peak current given a transient waveform based on the 8us/20us requirement. I note that lightning bolts do not care what the test specification is for an MOV, they will do what they do.

Concept 2. A direct strike does not follow the IEEE 8/20 test.(note: some vendors are incorrectly referring to this spec as 8/20 millisecond, not microsecond). Initial strikes can run anywhere from 30kA to 120 Ka, and return strokes can run 300 kA. MOV's are not rated to handle that kind of hit.

Concept 3. The IEEE does not specify that a whole house SPD survive a direct stroke. The testing of whole house spd's makes assumptions on the loop resistance, the source impedance, peak current, and current waveform.


Stating such does not make it fact. You've clearly approached this thread with your own prejudices but have not provided any engineering content. Again, ask questions and I will gladly answer them..spouting rubbish to attack me is unbecoming.

If you believe I have stated a half truth, ask a specific question. Vague allegations aren't floating my boat, nor supporting your contentions..


So lets see. He's my buddy because he knew my name was John.

But yet, you just called me John? I guess this means you are my "buddy" as well?? (shades of Nomad)

Your diversionary tactics are clearly inadequate for the task. Please stick to actual engineering, or at least ask intelligent questions which I would be glad to answer.. Instead of attempting to bypass your inappropriate reactions to the discussion at hand..

Cheers, John <=== Again, with that name thingy..go figure.

I have no bias either towards surgeX type serial surge supression, nor towards MOV based parallel shunt suppression. I have never recommended any surgeX product, nor have I attempted to steer anybody away from it.

Your statements are diversionary attempts, period.

You are a very confused individual, but not in the way you would take the comment...I clarify..

You are confusing my electrical and fire safety and educational concerns about the completely hilarious, totally inaccurate, childlike, inarticulate rantings of west-dude......with a preference (or bias) towards any product.

As I stated last year, I have no preference for either type, I sell neither, I buy neither, I work for nobody in the business, and I've not engaged in any technical discussions nor consulted for pay with any whole house spd, end of branch spd, utility line spd, or MOV device manufacturer.(edit: I did PM one guy who I think did racks for home theaters...he had some cool technical papers on his website and on one of them I provided him some technical corrections..I do not know if he took them or not..I don't even remember what the errors I spotted were..)
I do take issue with child-like rantings of any individual who simply cuts and pastes disjointed, misapplied clips or links from actual engineers. Many of his rants are completely inaccurate, and some are actually dangerous.

You are not the first individual to be bamboozled by his cut and paste rantings, nor will you be the last.

As I said, ask technical questions, I will answer them to the best of my ability.

Cheers, John

Nice link. Of note is the fact that he specifies two levels of supression. One at the service entrance, and series mode end of branch supression. Also of note, is the fact that his drawing puts 6 kilovolts across the printer line cord. Leaving us with the eternal question...did the 1800 volt loop kill the printer, or was it the 6 kV coming in the line? Had a whole house spd been put in, the maximum ground drop would have been 100 volts less the inductive tempering of the ground run, with 400 minus MOV induced IR drop arriving at the printer hot to neutral.

Cascading supression is a good thing to do. However, what was not discussed is the use of a multiport device at a group of equipment to protect against a reference float. In the picture depicted, the 6kV comes in via the hot at the service panel. A near strike will induce a voltage in the loop (faraday's law of induction), and that would not be stopped by a service panel spd with a series mode or even parallel mode device at the end of branch. All the equipment would need to be grounded at the same point, that is what those big powerbars do with the tele jacks, cable jacks, etc, all on one box.

Cheers, John

So, you don't deny that you know Mr. McCook personally. Got it.

This is one of the quotes that threw me:



I don't understand why you would respond like this - but I'm aware you've discussed these issues with westom in other threads, in multiple forums. Maybe you're just frustrated.

What rating would you suggest for a whole-house SPD, if not 50 kA or higher?

Some of your postings are comic relief. Thanks for the laugh.

I also did not deny knowing the president of the United States either.. nor, have I denied knowing you personally. How many people will I have to deny knowing? One billion? Two?

Everybody sees your statements here as diversionary. Look... you assumed either a personal or a business relationship existed, not a problem. Just accept the responsibility of the error, admit you made a mistake... No problem.


text:
""Originally Posted by westom
So go to Lowes or Home Depot. Ask for a less than $50 'whole house' protector. Then view spec numbers. It must be 50,000 amps or higher so that even lightning strikes cause no damage."" end of text..

Ok, easy enough to answer...the first half is a statement, the second is a horribly inaccurate assumption.

The ability of an MOV to survive depends on several factors.

1. It's physical volume: The energy it absorbs will increase it's temperature, based on the heat capacity of the device. Double the volume, roughly double the joule rating.(while not exact, for the purpose of discussion it will do.)
2. It's voltage/current rating. Voltage will be roughly related to it's thickness between terminals, and current will be roughly related to it's area: At high current ramp rates, the current capability will be related more closely to the circumference, as high speed currents will tend to skin within the device, crowding the edge and avoiding the middle.
3. The conduction path characteristics which carry the pulse. Unvaporized copper wire will have it's resistivity, so indirect strikes which do not vaporize the copper will be tempered by the path resistance. Once the copper has vaporized, the resulting plasma conduit is essentially a really good conductor. Same with the ionized air channel.

If you exceed any of the MOV ratings, survival is not guaranteed. the 50 kA spec is a rating based on a 8uS/20uS test, not a lightning hit. A direct strike can run 150 kA in one direction, 300 kA in the other.. Needless to say, a 50kA device will NOT survive a direct hit like this.

What a 50 kA device WILL do, is protect the house in the event a strike occurs to the utility structure anywhere in the neighborhood. When that happens, the utility wires are delivering the transient to your house. The utility wires provide a real tempering of the violence of the strike. By the time it gets to your house, there are large wiring resistive and inductive drops.

The statement that a 50kA device will protect a house against a direct strike is an outright lie. And, a dangerous one. w-dude regularly lies about some florida tower failure..claiming that even when it met code for earthing, it's not enough...yet when one reads the article, it clearly states that the grounding resistance was 550 ohms. The article states rather nicely, that the earth bond failed code by a factor of 22.



Because a direct strike will indeed destroy a whole house spd. In no way, shape, or form, should idiotic statements regarding safety be allowed to live.


Now your really making things up.

There is no such thing as a discussion with wes-dude. Given facts, he ignores them. Given technical questions, he never answers them. All he does is cut and paste and denigrate....but, our discussion is not about him. It is about surge supression and engineering facts.

So as I said, ask away, I'll be happy to answer.


With what? Him? As I've stated, he is comic relief..and entertainment which allows actual engineers to post actual knowledge that others will read. Without him, this thread would be boring.

You? Nah. Your slant is also entertaining. It appears that your schtick is to use conspiracy theories to denigrate others by fabricating ulterior motives. Fun to read. but frustrating???pfffft. Perhaps if I were part of a conspiracy, I'd be frustrated..but let's face it...your posting has allowed me to provide technical content that would otherwise be rather boring..that is a good thing..


The big guys like eaton range from 30 to 60 kA devices for residential. Larger is always better.. Eaton (IIRC) has a great website with lots of clear content put into laymen terms, and they detail such things like using end of branch devices in cascade coordination with a whole house unit. If you need a link, I could google, or perhaps you could.

The biggest issue I see is the use of single port vs multiport end of branch spd's..there is lots of confusion out there on that, and wes-dude is one of the most confused in that regard..just look at his mis-quotes and mis-interpretation of Martzloff.

Cheers, John

oh, almost forgot...

No, I don't know Mr McCook personally, professioinally, nada....case you were wondering... (I know if I do not deny it, you will continue the harrassment..

Folks, now that we have established that jneutron does not know Mr. McCook, nor the president of the United States , let's move this thread to more productive discussions. Even if he did know Mr. McCook, it would not be relevant, so let's please stick to discussing surge protection.

For others, I've started to follow this thread and now have the gist of it, I know that fighting misinformation can be frustrating, but moving forward in this thread if you feel that misinformation is being purposely posted or that someone has a hidden agenda please resist the urge to engage in personal insults, instead refute the post, or report it.

Thanks

There seems to be an inordinate fear of a direct lightning strike on someone's home, possibly destroying the electronic entertainment system components. Out of this concern, claims have been made as to the survivability of a small man-made device sold for a few bucks.

In my personal experience in Texas over 30 years(land of many major Tstorms) lightning RARELY strikes a house which provides a poor ground path as opposed to the nearby trees which are split into several pieces and set afire.

Depending on the proximity of the tree and the soil condition, the charge can be diverted right to to grounding assembly of the home thereby negating any benefit of the "protection" system whatever technology is used.

Given the pages of claims concerning the rare direct hit in a lightning storm and all the defensive plans made, are the same concerns made to the same extent for the much more frequent tornadoes?

It seems apparent that this uber cautionary diatribe can achieve nothing that nature cannot easily overcome.

If you want to make G*d laugh, tell him your plans.

jneutron and everyone else, which brands and models do you recommend for Whole House Surge protection that have a proven track record of success and are well credible and back up all their claims with numbers and give all their test results from UL 3rd Edition?

I was told earlier a Eaton Innovative Technology XT series is very good, but I contacted Eaton and a customer rep told me those are mostly for industrial buildings and commercial and might run into insurance problems and inspection issues if used on residential homes. He recommended their residential units from Cutler-Hammer.

westom has already given your the names of reliable manufacturers. Anything with a 50kA or higher surge current rating should last you tens of years. Best would be one with a UL 1449 3rd Ed. In rating of 20kA. For that matter, a plug-on unit from the manufacturer of your panel, Siemens/Murray, should do the job although it is probably rated about 40kA and probably has a lower In rating because of the size of MOVs used that can be fit inside a molded breaker.

Weren't you going to go with a Eaton/Cutler Hammer CHSPUltra? That would be a good unit.

You can check UL listed devices here If the device is listed by another NRTL, getting information may be more difficult. Search for the folder using the company name and "surge-protective devices".

I'm searching around, what is the surge current rating of the latest Cutler-Hammer CHSPUltra? I think I found a older unit online from years past and was wondering if they updated their line?

Eaton rates CHSPUltra at rated 75kA maximum surge current L-N/L-G. The UL 1449 3rd ed. In is 20kA, the maximum the manufacturer can request UL to test for. IIRC it has a 400V clamping voltage. It has a 600V voltage protection rating, which is a more realistic rating which reflects performance under maximum surge current and realistic cable length.

OK. I think I have this clear now.

Direct hits are rare, and nothing protects against them.

A whole-house SPD, adequately rated, provides some protection against nearby hits.

What's the benefit of the point-of-use surge 'protection' devices, e.g. SurgeX? Are they also providing protection against nearby lightning strikes, or is it marketing hype? That is, is there much benefit to 'cascading suppression'?

Edit - oppopioneer, I believe the new Eaton resi SPD that you're looking for is called the CHSPT1Ultra, not sure if it's available yet, google it for the Eaton pdf link (Nov 2010 Surge catalog). Or, might be the CHSPT2Ultra. Separate UL listings for each, unsure how they are different.

edit #2 - I think you want the CHSPT2Ultra

No wonder there are so many CHSPUltras on eBay...

CHSPT2Ultra is a Type 2 device that appears to be the latest version of the old CHSPUltra. Interestingly enough, the maximum surge current numbers from Eaton are lower on the new one. But it still meets the basic requirements. Type 2 device connects through a double-pole breaker in the panel. It also depends on the main breaker or main fuse to function safely in case of high fault current.

CHSPT1Ultra is a Type 1 device that appears to be a a CHSPUltra repackaged with the necessarily beefier over-current protection (higher SCCR) required when you don't have a main breaker or main fuse between the service drop and the device. Type 1 devices don't require a separate breaker because they can safely take themselves out of the circuit at full available fault current.

That is the $64,000 question.

Cascaded protection has been recommended for a long time. It is a good idea in concept. Device at service entrance takes the brunt of the big biggest hits. Clamping voltage is chosen so that there is little chance of the MOV conducting in a over-voltage situation. Down stream devices with lower clamping voltage finish the job protecting sensitive solid state equipment. Problem is if the down stream device clamping voltage is sufficiently lower than the service entrance device, it functions before the service entrance device and does much or all of the work. Martzloff wrote of the problem of coordination. You can find his papers on the NIST site.

I saw an FAA document on the design of air traffic control facilities that required that down stream devices have successively higher clamping voltages.

Assume that the service entrance device reduces the voltage to 600V max. According to Marzloff almost all electronic devices are inherently protected to 600-800V. Why would we need down stream devices? The most commonly touted reason is that there are devices in the building that generated damaging surges. IMHO the danger in most homes is highly over-rated. The primary sources of damaging surges are external. Lots of internal devices generate transients that could be described as surges. The question is are they capable of damaging other equipment. Worst culprits are generally things with motors. Install a whole house surge protective device and if the offending device is on a separate branch circuit from the sensitive gear you have the same protection as from external events. In my house, the worst offender would be the air conditioning compressor. But it is on its own circuit. Then there are kitchen and laundry appliances. Again, on a different circuit. But I am not sure even that is necessary. How do all the modern appliances with microprocessors in them survive? How did my gear survive all those years before I learned about surge suppression?

Before I installed a whole-house device, the only problem I had was that dimmers and incandescent lamps did not last as long as they should have. Both the triacs in the dimmers and incandescent lamps fail around 1500V according to Martzloff's research. So, one could say that I was getting surges of at least 1500V. Nothing else was failing. Only very basic devices with little or no inherent protection. Now that I have a whole-house device even those don't fail prematurely.


That leaves nearby lightning strikes that can induce a voltage on the house wiring. Point-of-use devices may be the only way to protect against such surges. I am not sure how well that will work. Not an issue where I live. I can remember only a single lightning strike in over 40 years where I heard the boom and saw the flash essentially at the same time. Insurance covers that risk. I suspect if my gear is damage in that way I will be concerned with much bigger problems.

So which one would be best to buy?

I really like the Eaton Innovative Technology XT Series...

Steve Bruzonsky posted his XT Series he has for his house:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=976887&page=4

Once you have a device that can handle 50kA surge current (L-N, L-G) you have a device that should last decades. The voltage protection rating of the CHSPUltra, 600V is about as good as it gets under UL 1449 3rd ed. testing. So is the In of 20kA. It is a fine device.

The best device IMHO would be the one that meets requirements at the cheapest installed cost, be it CHSPUltra or another product from a reputable manufacturer. There is very little difference in the technology between them. Any significant differences will show up in the numbers from the UL testing.

If you want to go with a device that will handle more surge current, it will last even longer. It may or may not make economic sense.

CHSPUltra has lower voltage protection rating than the Innovative Technology XT series. Innovative Technology also has residential products that appear to be identical to the CHSP line.

If I were to use an audiophile power cord on one of these surge protectors, would that make the surge more effective, or less effective? Would the surge sound better?

Have I got a cable for you! How much money do you have?

Actually, the length and geometry of the cable used to connect a whole-house device to the panel can affect the voltage protection rating.