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xx7 Onkyos versus XX10 Denons - Page 3

post #61 of 255
8/31/09 at 10:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

agreed. Somewhat shocking for a $1500 msrp receiver, no DSX and not even MultEQ XT! Denon was probably patting themselves on the back for taking the lead again from Onkyo in the "entry level" war, but then Onkyo gave them a gut punch by introducing DSX and even 9 amps at a MUCH lower price point.

Looking at that chart (BTW the 4810CI should be on there), you can really see the different marketing approaches in microcosm: Onkyo says "stuff in as many features as possible at a lower price point", Denon says "maintain this air of exclusivity for the 'flagship' price point."

Denon dropped some models and created more differentiation between the higher end price points, but now they have egg on their faces a bit for trying to spoonfeed these new technologies in through their flagships and then Onkyo just busted the door down. Denon will have to respond aggressively in the '11 models...

Totally agree. Denon scaled back the lineup and made $500 incremements wherease Onkyo has ramped up its lineup with closely segmented $50-$100 increments. Onkyo has three new models out this year (two HT RC and a segment between the 806 and 876 (1007)).
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post #62 of 255
8/31/09 at 10:53am
Thread Starter 
and i agree on the 3310 - it's out of contention for me because of the lack of DSX. The 2310 at $550 is a great bargain and is a great option between the 607 and 707, but if prices on the 707 drop, the 2310 is a sitting duck.

where can i find the specs on the 4810? Cannot find it on denon's website.
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post #63 of 255
8/31/09 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

and i agree on the 3310 - it's out of contention for me because of the lack of DSX. The 2310 at $550 is a great bargain and is a great option between the 607 and 707, but if prices on the 707 drop, the 2310 is a sitting duck.

I'd expect the SR707 prices to settle pretty quickly into the $600 - $700 range... as long as the 2310ci stays in between the SR607 and SR707, I'd say it definitely has a niche... especially for those looking for great video processing to pair with a source-direct capable BD player.
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post #64 of 255
8/31/09 at 11:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post

I'd expect the SR707 prices to settle pretty quickly into the $600 - $700 range... as long as the 2310ci stays in between the SR607 and SR707, I'd say it definitely has a niche... especially for those looking for great video processing to pair with a source-direct capable BD player.

true, but for $50 more to get thx select 2 certification, 1 more hdmi, audyssey dsx, and a functional remote control?

i do like the abt 2010 alot...
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post #65 of 255
8/31/09 at 11:11am
I think the 707 is only a better deal if you care about DSX. For a conventional 5.1/7.1 setup I would much rather have the high-end ABT video chip, cool color GUI with overlay on all sources.

THX cert (especially just Select2) doesn't matter to me, for years now Onkyo has pushed this and Denon has not so it's not a real value proposition to me. I am sure most Denon models above the 2000 level would meet those THX specs if they cared to pay for the label.

And extra HDMI inputs.... *yawn*.... how many do you really need? How many people really need more than 4-5? Stuffing a gajillion HDMI inputs in has been part of Onkyo's strategy for a couple of years now.

For the "typical" user who doesn't care about DSX, the 2310 vs 707 is a very competitive battle.
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post #66 of 255
8/31/09 at 11:18am
Quote:


where can i find the specs on the 4810? Cannot find it on denon's website.

see this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1160117

the specs that are relevant to your table would be:

MSRP $2999
- 9 channels equal power amplifier section, Multi Mono-block construction
- 140 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 – 20kHz, <0.05% THD)
- Analog/HDMI Video to HDMI Scaling (1080p) featuring Anchor Bay Technologies processing (ABT-2010), with GUI overlay
- MultEQ XT + DSX

no specs on weight or power draw though.

One thing I am curious about with the table -- you list some of the dual-sub output models as "7.2" which is a little tricky.... most of these are just dual outputs but the same signal. The Denon 4810CI will be 9.3 but the three sub outputs will have independent Audyssey calibration a la the high-end 5308CI, with lots of config options (e.g. stereo bass vs mono bass). Does anyone know if the 5007/3007/1007 Onkyo models have "simple" dual sub outs or can they do independent Audyssey calibration?

Also, what's the difference between 3007 and 5007 beyond the extra HDMI? They seem very similar on paper, of course that chart you created is pretty limited in scope.
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post #67 of 255
8/31/09 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

For the "typical" user who doesn't care about DSX, the 2310 vs 707 is a very competitive battle.

I'd agree 100%... pre-outs can become a big distinguishing factor if external amplification is anywhere in your future plans.

I also see myself with mixed feelings about video processing. I'd always like to have a higher-end processing implementation SOMEWHERE in my setup, but it seems much more cost effective to have it at the BD player where it'll be doing the bulk of its work (DVD scaling/deinterlacing), and leaving HDTV with minimal processing. I watch barely any SD TV in my theater these days, and even my HD TV viewing I either don't see as critical or am happy with the PQ out of my TivoHD as-is.

It may be an old-school way of thinking, but I tend to see myself looking at an AVR almost strictly for audio features/quality and more to the source device for video processing... that is until Onkyo pushes REON or similar on down the line, or Denon beefs up their amps and Audyssey modes.
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post #68 of 255
8/31/09 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Also, what's the difference between 3007 and 5007
beyond the extra HDMI? They seem very similar on paper, of course that chart you created is pretty limited in scope.

  • 1 Extra HDMI Input
  • Toroidal Transformer
  • Gaming DSP Modes
  • Banana Plugs (customized, gold plated)
  • Power Output (watts per channel/at 6 ohms) 220W vs 200W


This was taken from a comparison on Onkyo Europe site.


Respectfully,
Willie
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post #69 of 255
8/31/09 at 11:39am
Quote:


or Denon beefs up their amps and Audyssey modes.

On Audyssey stuff, I don't think your generalization is accurate.....

1. Denon was much more aggressive about implementing Dynamic EQ + Dynamic Volume in every Denon model last year (Onkyo didn't add Dynamic Volume until the new XX7 models)

2. Denon has MultEQ all the way down to the lowest model, on Onkyo you only get 2EQ until the 70X level. The difference between 2EQ and MultEQ is much more important than MultEQ vs XT.

3. Onkyo jumped the gun on dropping XT in mid-level models before Denon did (e.g. 806 vs 805)

Your comment is really only accurate if you confine the scope to DSX, and isn't accurate if you are talking about Audyssey in general. Outside of DSX, Denon has embraced the Audyssey "suite" more comprehensively than Onkyo. Onkyo has now added Dyn. Volume to the whole lineup, but Denon gives you MultEQ at a much lower price point ($349 for the AVR 590), and both Denon and Onkyo restrict MultEQ XT to the $1500+ price point now.
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post #70 of 255
8/31/09 at 11:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

see this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1160117

the specs that are relevant to your table would be:

MSRP $2999
- 9 channels equal power amplifier section, Multi Mono-block construction
- 140 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 - 20kHz, <0.05% THD)
- Analog/HDMI Video to HDMI Scaling (1080p) featuring Anchor Bay Technologies processing (ABT-2010), with GUI overlay
- MultEQ XT + DSX

no specs on weight or power draw though.

One thing I am curious about with the table -- you list some of the dual-sub output models as "7.2" which is a little tricky.... most of these are just dual outputs but the same signal. The Denon 4810CI will be 9.3 but the three sub outputs will have independent Audyssey calibration a la the high-end 5308CI, with lots of config options (e.g. stereo bass vs mono bass). Does anyone know if the 5007/3007/1007 Onkyo models have "simple" dual sub outs or can they do independent Audyssey calibration?

Also, what's the difference between 3007 and 5007 beyond the extra HDMI? They seem very similar on paper, of course that chart you created is pretty limited in scope.

Huge thing worth noting is that appears to be the first receiver with HDMI 1.4, which is critical to future-proof for 3d displays going forward (if anyone sees it more than a gimmick).
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post #71 of 255
8/31/09 at 12:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post

I'd agree 100%... pre-outs can become a big distinguishing factor if external amplification is anywhere in your future plans.

I also see myself with mixed feelings about video processing. I'd always like to have a higher-end processing implementation SOMEWHERE in my setup, but it seems much more cost effective to have it at the BD player where it'll be doing the bulk of its work (DVD scaling/deinterlacing), and leaving HDTV with minimal processing. I watch barely any SD TV in my theater these days, and even my HD TV viewing I either don't see as critical or am happy with the PQ out of my TivoHD as-is.

It may be an old-school way of thinking, but I tend to see myself looking at an AVR almost strictly for audio features/quality and more to the source device for video processing... that is until Onkyo pushes REON or similar on down the line, or Denon beefs up their amps and Audyssey modes.


I'm with you completely - I have my Onkyo 906's VP set to pass through and only use the reon for our wii (480p).
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post #72 of 255
8/31/09 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

On Audyssey stuff, I don't think your generalization is accurate.....

1. Denon was much more aggressive about implementing Dynamic EQ + Dynamic Volume in every Denon model last year (Onkyo didn't add Dynamic Volume until the new XX7 models)

2. Denon has MultEQ all the way down to the lowest model, on Onkyo you only get 2EQ until the 70X level. The difference between 2EQ and MultEQ is much more important than MultEQ vs XT.

3. Onkyo jumped the gun on dropping XT in mid-level models before Denon did (e.g. 806 vs 805)

Your comment is really only accurate if you confine the scope to DSX, and isn't accurate if you are talking about Audyssey in general. Outside of DSX, Denon has embraced the Audyssey "suite" more comprehensively than Onkyo. Onkyo has now added Dyn. Volume to the whole lineup, but Denon gives you MultEQ at a much lower price point ($349 for the AVR 590), and both Denon and Onkyo restrict MultEQ XT to the $1500+ price point now.

Comparing current models from the SR707 and up (models I would consider purchasing and using either as a stand-alone AVR or pre-pro in a dedicated theater) I'd say the Denon and Onkyo lines have some major parity in terms of overall quality, but different strengths.

Denon does give you Multi-EQ at a lower price-point, while Onkyo gives you XT at a lower price-point. I agree that MultiEQ vs. 2EQ is much more important than MultiEQ vs. XT, but what rubs me the wrong way is that both companies have moved XT further and further up the line for no published reason (i.e. cost-cutting).

Both now give you Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume across the line. I've pretty much written off last year's SR806 as fail due to the Audyssey downgrade, DAC downgrade, amp downgrade, and (mainly) flawed video processing.
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post #73 of 255
8/31/09 at 1:32pm
I am having the most impossible time choosing between the Onkyo TX-NR807 and the Denon 3310!!!!!!! Any help would be great!
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post #74 of 255
8/31/09 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylz25 View Post

I am having the most impossible time choosing between the Onkyo TX-NR807 and the Denon 3310!!!!!!! Any help would be great!

If I read the numbers right why not consider the Onkyo TX NR1007 for about $200 - $300 more? The difference is worth the extra $$$ IMO if you are already considering the 807 at their price tag.
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post #75 of 255
8/31/09 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

If I read the numbers right why not consider the Onkyo TX NR1007 for about $200 - $300 more? The difference is worth the extra $$$ IMO if you are already considering the 807 at their price tag.

I have never even heard of the Onkyo TX-NR1007. I am from Edmonton,Alberta,Canada...is this just available in the US??
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post #76 of 255
8/31/09 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylz25 View Post

I have never even heard of the Onkyo TX-NR1007. I am from Edmonton,Alberta,Canada...is this just available in the US??

No, its availible also in Europe
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post #77 of 255
8/31/09 at 6:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylz25 View Post

I am having the most impossible time choosing between the Onkyo TX-NR807 and the Denon 3310!!!!!!! Any help would be great!

Unless you really need the ABT chip, I am inclined you get more power, audyssey dx, extra hdmi input and thx select 2 certification for $300 less. 807s will be near $800 soon as well.
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post #78 of 255
8/31/09 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Unless you really need the ABT chip, I am inclined you get more power, audyssey dx, extra hdmi input and thx select 2 certification for $300 less. 807s will be near $800 soon as well.

That's a wet dream come true for Canadians, they will never see the 807 at $800 unless it's second hand or from a non-authorized dealer. The 806 has only just started showing up locally for under $1000... It's a shocker to all my US friends what I pay for electronics here in Canada.
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post #79 of 255
8/31/09 at 8:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

see this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1160117

the specs that are relevant to your table would be:

MSRP $2999
- 9 channels equal power amplifier section, Multi Mono-block construction
- 140 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 - 20kHz, <0.05% THD)
- Analog/HDMI Video to HDMI Scaling (1080p) featuring Anchor Bay Technologies processing (ABT-2010), with GUI overlay
- MultEQ XT + DSX

no specs on weight or power draw though.

One thing I am curious about with the table -- you list some of the dual-sub output models as "7.2" which is a little tricky.... most of these are just dual outputs but the same signal. The Denon 4810CI will be 9.3 but the three sub outputs will have independent Audyssey calibration a la the high-end 5308CI, with lots of config options (e.g. stereo bass vs mono bass). Does anyone know if the 5007/3007/1007 Onkyo models have "simple" dual sub outs or can they do independent Audyssey calibration?

Also, what's the difference between 3007 and 5007 beyond the extra HDMI? They seem very similar on paper, of course that chart you created is pretty limited in scope.


Check out the info at:
http://stereowiseplus.com/2009/08/on...gh-end-tx.html

It says the sub outs are independent. The 5007 also has higher grade 32bit Burr brown DAC's, and higher grade capacitors.
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post #80 of 255
9/1/09 at 8:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

see this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1160117

the specs that are relevant to your table would be:

MSRP $2999
- 9 channels equal power amplifier section, Multi Mono-block construction
- 140 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 - 20kHz, <0.05% THD)
- Analog/HDMI Video to HDMI Scaling (1080p) featuring Anchor Bay Technologies processing (ABT-2010), with GUI overlay
- MultEQ XT + DSX

no specs on weight or power draw though.

One thing I am curious about with the table -- you list some of the dual-sub output models as "7.2" which is a little tricky.... most of these are just dual outputs but the same signal. The Denon 4810CI will be 9.3 but the three sub outputs will have independent Audyssey calibration a la the high-end 5308CI, with lots of config options (e.g. stereo bass vs mono bass). Does anyone know if the 5007/3007/1007 Onkyo models have "simple" dual sub outs or can they do independent Audyssey calibration?

Also, what's the difference between 3007 and 5007 beyond the extra HDMI? They seem very similar on paper, of course that chart you created is pretty limited in scope.

updated for what info we have on the 4810. still think the hdmi 1.4 might be a big deal...
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post #81 of 255
9/1/09 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

updated for what info we have on the 4810. still think the hdmi 1.4 might be a big deal...

Heh, well, for $3,000, you can just buy an $800 receiver this year, and then a brand new $800 receiver in five years, and be way ahead.
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post #82 of 255
9/1/09 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malor View Post

Heh, well, for $3,000, you can just buy an $800 receiver this year, and then a brand new $800 receiver in five years, and be way ahead.

That would be my thought process as well... for $3k you could buy a $1k AVR now, a $1k AVR later, and several channels of quality amplification any time in between.
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post #83 of 255
9/1/09 at 9:04am
Audioholics posted an overview of the 1007, 3007, and the 5007 today.

Quote: "First Impression: Gotta Have It!"

They state that the two subwoofer outputs are independent, not mono.

An added feature of the NR5007's 9 channel amp, is the ability to quote: ".....use the two channels for an additional pair of main speakers in a dedicated 2-channel room (or in the same room if you like to A/B speakers)."

Their conclusion:
Quote: "We expect they won't be on the shelves for very long. With the feature sets and at these prices, they look to be a hard act to follow. Expect the buzz over these receivers to be huge."

Do these Onkyo receivers put Denon in the same class as the Raiders ???

No doubt, batpig will post "hell no".

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/r...n-the-internet
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post #84 of 255
9/1/09 at 9:09am
Quote:


No doubt, batpig will post "hell no".

well jeez, I'm not a brand whore. I have praised Onkyo pretty consistently in this thread for bringing these awesome features out at a lower price point. I recommend non-Denon products all the time; it's more of a coincidence than anything...

Quote:


Do these Onkyo receivers put Denon in the same class as the Raiders ???

however, I am a Chargers fan, and that is really, really cold man
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post #85 of 255
9/1/09 at 9:42am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhunter View Post

Audioholics posted an overview of the 1007, 3007, and the 5007 today.

Quote: "First Impression: Gotta Have It!"

They state that the two subwoofer outputs are independent, not mono.

An added feature of the NR5007's 9 channel amp, is the ability to quote: ".....use the two channels for an additional pair of main speakers in a dedicated 2-channel room (or in the same room if you like to A/B speakers)."

Their conclusion:
Quote: "We expect they won't be on the shelves for very long. With the feature sets and at these prices, they look to be a hard act to follow. Expect the buzz over these receivers to be huge."

Do these Onkyo receivers put Denon in the same class as the Raiders ???

No doubt, batpig will post "hell no".

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/r...n-the-internet

Onkyo made a good bet on audio this year in pushing more amps and dsx down the line up. denon's bet on vp with the abt 2010 chip well down the lineup is great, but i am afraid they may have made the mistake onkyo did last year in sacrificing core audio potency for video processing. after all, we principally buy a receiver for audio, not video.

onkyo's intensely segmented lineup is an interesting bet. every dealer and retailer i talk to says the ht rc (down-featured versions of the 6 and 8 series) have sold like hotcakes. good on them for tackling recessionista fears.
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post #86 of 255
9/1/09 at 9:44am
There's one feature on the Denon's that hasn't been mentioned here that isn't on the Onkyo's..... that is DenonLink.
For 2 channel sources and hirez multichannel (SACD, DVD-Audio)
is there an advantage of using DenonLink versus HDMI?
Perceived or Real.... I think so.
I do know when I want to hear my system at it's best
I choose DenonLink via my Denon 3930
versus HDMI via my Oppo BDP-83.

dc
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post #87 of 255
9/1/09 at 9:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Onkyo made a good bet on audio this year in pushing more amps and dsx down the line up. denon's bet on vp with the abt 2010 chip well down the lineup is great, but i am afraid they may have made the mistake onkyo did last year in sacrificing core audio potency for video processing. after all, we principally buy a receiver for audio, not video.

the one thing I will say is -- how do we know that Denon has sacrificed "core audio potency"? All the buzz on this thread is about DSX and 9-channels.... but there is still a vast array of consumers who will consider this a new gimmick and buy based on other features.

I would still imagine that a properly set-up Onkyo and a properly set-up Denon at a similar price point will sound similarly excellent.

It requires way too many assumptions to make a pronouncement at this point that either one has "sacrificed" in the core competency of reproducing great audio -- other than the 2809>3310 transition dropping MultEQ XT for normal MultEQ (something which Onkyo also did last year remember with 70X/80X models) it seems there isn't much evidence to support that.

The differences rather to me seem to NOT be "core" features, but ancillary features at the mid-level price points, e.g. that Onkyo has been more aggressive in pushing new features (DSX and lots of HDMI inputs), whereas Denon is pushing high-end video processing...
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post #88 of 255
9/1/09 at 11:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

the one thing I will say is -- how do we know that Denon has sacrificed "core audio potency"? All the buzz on this thread is about DSX and 9-channels.... but there is still a vast array of consumers who will consider this a new gimmick and buy based on other features.

I would still imagine that a properly set-up Onkyo and a properly set-up Denon at a similar price point will sound similarly excellent.

It requires way too many assumptions to make a pronouncement at this point that either one has "sacrificed" in the core competency of reproducing great audio -- other than the 2809>3310 transition dropping MultEQ XT for normal MultEQ (something which Onkyo also did last year remember with 70X/80X models) it seems there isn't much evidence to support that.

The differences rather to me seem to NOT be "core" features, but ancillary features at the mid-level price points, e.g. that Onkyo has been more aggressive in pushing new features (DSX and lots of HDMI inputs), whereas Denon is pushing high-end video processing...

I probably used the wrong syntax - one could argue that denon did not push the envelope on the audio section this year. on a price basis, onkyos are generally heavier, more powerful, and have more audio-related features like additional amps, dsx, etc further down the lineup.

Denon wins the video side this year save fewer hdmi inputs.
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post #89 of 255
9/1/09 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

I probably used the wrong syntax - one could argue that denon did not push the envelope on the audio section this year. on a price basis, onkyos are generally heavier, more powerful, and have more audio-related features like additional amps, dsx, etc further down the lineup.

Denon wins the video side this year save fewer hdmi inputs.

I want to see the bench-tested power output of the Denons (especially the 3310 and 4310) and Onkyos (especially the NR807 and NR1007/3007), before I make a judgement... but, anecdotally on paper, it does look like the Onkyos will be more powerful.
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post #90 of 255
9/1/09 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Huge thing worth noting is that appears to be the first receiver with HDMI 1.4, which is critical to future-proof for 3d displays going forward (if anyone sees it more than a gimmick).

But how will they implement HDMI 1.4? What options will they support? Won't this be the first product to offer HDMI 1.4? I was reading somewhere else on AVS where they were discussing HDMI 1.4 and what it would cover. More resolution or 3D? If I remember correctly, it can't do both simultaneously. Per the aritcle on HDMI from Wikipedia.
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