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My new BenQ W6000 & the world of "1080p"

post #1 of 48
Thread Starter 
First of all let me apologize as this is slightly off topic but nonetheless, I need to better understand what the actual resolution of 1080p is, what is considered its theoretical maximum resolution and for the most part what is the ACTUAL resolution most of the current "HD" devices on the market, capture and display/project.

I use many 1080p HD cameras from consumer to professional ones, and for the most part when viewing them on higher-end single or 3 chip 1080p projectors, I somehow have the feeling that actual sharpness and resolutions of these cameras somehow seems to come short.

I say this is especially true as I view some of my favorite BluRay movies with what I consider better mastering and transfers, they present a level of fine detail and fidelity no video camera out of the box seems to provide their picture is for the most part more grotesque, in lack of better wording.

So, I just recently purchased a BenQ W6000 Projector in Taiwan (a great machine I have to say), and, in need for an extremely compact HD camera for a project I am doing, I purchased also a consumer grade JVC GZ-X900 Camera that records using the AVCDHD format (in its highest possible bitrate, I should add). To my surprise, when viewing its footage on my new 1080p DLP projector, I got a feeling to be watching among the sharpest and detailed images I've ever captured coming from an "HD" camera. I started doing some research and got startled by a few facts.

The first one was that indeed, this little plastic camera featuring a completely mediocre consumer grade lens, records the highest resolution of any consumer/prosumer camera on the market today, no matter the price, nearly 1000 lines:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm

The second thing, which is slightly more disturbing, is that I realized that basically NONE, I mean NO SINGLE ONE "HD" camera on the market actually records full HD, no matter the claims or the "Full HD" stickers I see on everything now-a-days. In fact, most cameras don't even get past 600 to 650 lines of actual recorded resolution. That's or even 720p. Actually, that just about the resolution of standard PAL signal.

Furthermore, a bit more reading quickly unveiled the disturbing fact that most of the camcorders on the market today with their fancy HDMI 1.3 interfaces, actually shoot only in 720p (and that is the "recording format because they actually don't even capture that much) and then upscale it to 1080p for actually recording onto disk.

It seems clear that camcorder manufacturer (at least) don't post their real resolution lw/ph on their products. And, though the score from the JVC GZ-X900 is encouraging, I am still not seeing projected on my wall anything NEAR true 1920x1080.

So, what am I missing here then? Actually, what are we all missing? This certainly explains first of all that I've observed that for the most part, the pictures produced by good 720p "HD" cameras look just as sharp or detailed than most of their 1080i/1080p counterparts. Plus, we already know that for the most part most (if not all) HDTV Broadcasts positively suck as far as general quality and still/motion resolution goes.

So, my question is, I assume all 1080p video projectors can display a theoretically maximum (and ideal) 1920x1080, which I assume is 1080 vertical lines. Why are most cameras called "HD" recording actually about just ½ of what the 1080p specs are? And, what is actually then the typical output of a BluRay Player? And HDTV? cough, cough

We seem to have modern HDTV broadcasts that fair in much lower quality than solid analogue used to bring, 1080p cameras that record detail equivalent to ½ their claimed theoretical maximum resolution and, I wonder really, if even 1080p projectors are indeed capable of displaying the resolution that comes spec'ed.

Thanks for the comments and advice.
LL
post #2 of 48
BluRay typically outputs 1080p. Now enough about that, give us your impressions on the W6000. Is it the light cannon everyone sais or does it work good for moderate screen sizes. Give us everything!
post #3 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmframe View Post


So, my question is, I assume all 1080p video projectors can display a theoretically maximum (and ideal) 1920x1080, which I assume is 1080 vertical lines.


horizontal lines
post #4 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acta7 View Post

horizontal lines

OK, so can devices that capture 600 or 800 lines vertically and/or horizontally be morally and legally named as full HD machinery??? What type of crap is this?

We live in the hype of a 1080p world, yet, NOT ONE SINGLE "1080p" recording device does anywhere NEAR 1080p specs? These are the real numbers of the latest and greatest 1080p video recording devices available today:

- Canon 5D Mark II: 700 lw/ph (horizontal) x 650 lw/ph (vertical)
- Canon T1i: 650 lw/ph (horizontal) x 775 lw/ph (vertical)
- Panasonic GH1: 750 lw/ph (horizontal) x 650 lw/ph (vertical)
- Canon HF S100: 800 lw/ph (horizontal) x 650 lw/ph (vertical)


So, every single camera registers about 1/2 to 1/3 of 1080p's HxV combined true specs. This is appalling to me! The bull in the world of "high definition" is never-ending! Its amazing... And I hear people all excited talking about 4K and stuff... OMG!...
post #5 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acta7 View Post

horizontal lines

The OP is correct, a 1920x1080 display has 1080 vertical lines of resolution (the lines are stacked vertically), and 1920 lines of horizontal resolution (stacked horizontally). It's not the direction that the lines run, it's the direction that they're stacked.
post #6 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmframe View Post

OK, so can devices that capture 600 or 800 lines vertically and/or horizontally be morally and legally named as full HD machinery??? What type of crap is this?

We live in the hype of a 1080p world, yet, NOT ONE SINGLE "1080p" recording device does anywhere NEAR 1080p specs? These are the real numbers of the latest and greatest 1080p video recording devices available today:

- Canon 5D Mark II: 700 lw/ph (horizontal) x 650 lw/ph (vertical)
- Canon T1i: 650 lw/ph (horizontal) x 775 lw/ph (vertical)
- Panasonic GH1: 750 lw/ph (horizontal) x 650 lw/ph (vertical)
- Canon HF S100: 800 lw/ph (horizontal) x 650 lw/ph (vertical)


This is appalling to me! The bull in the world of "high definition" is never-ending! Its amazing... And I hear people all excited talking about 4K and stuff... OMG!...

"Full HD" is a marketing term, and although it is usually associated with 1920x1080 devices, it can really be applied however a company wants. Since HDTV is either 1280x720 or 1920x1080, technically a 720p TV could be labled "Full HD" since it meets the HD criteria.
post #7 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmframe View Post

So, what am I missing here then? Actually, what are we all missing?

I think you're missing that there's a, sometimes BIG, difference between resolution and quality.

Quote:
This certainly explains first of all that I've observed that for the most part, the pictures produced by good 720p "HD" cameras look just as sharp or detailed than most of their 1080i/1080p counterparts. Plus, we already know that for the most part most (if not all) HDTV Broadcasts positively suck as far as general quality and still/motion resolution goes.

Broadcasts generally suck because they're compressed way to far to fit more channels down the same bandwidth.

Quote:
So, my question is, I assume all 1080p video projectors can display a theoretically maximum (and ideal) 1920x1080, which I assume is 1080 vertical lines. Why are most cameras called "HD" recording actually about just ½ of what the 1080p specs are?

1080p "specs" mean 1920x1080 pixels, nothing more nothing less. If they record in 1920x1080 progressive format, they can legitimately call themselves "1080p"

Quote:
And, what is actually then the typical output of a BluRay Player? And HDTV? cough, cough

I assume you're asking what the typical "quality" of a Blu-ray disc or HDTV broadcast is. You already know the answer. Most every Blu-ray disc is 1920x1080p24 encoded content. The quality varies based on the source, just like it did with DVD.

Most TV is 1920x1080i60, and again, the actual quality varies by the source, and sometimes the broadcaster.

Quote:
We seem to have modern HDTV broadcasts that fair in much lower quality than solid analogue used to bring,

You must realize that not all digital broadcasts are HD, and just because a channel is broadcasting in HD doesn't mean what they are broadcasting was from an HD source. That said I don't think I've ever seen an HD broadcast look worse than analog NTSC. Digital broadcast yes, but not HD.

Quote:
1080p cameras that record detail equivalent to ½ their claimed theoretical maximum resolution and, I wonder really, if even 1080p projectors are indeed capable of displaying the resolution that comes spec'ed.

Again, there's a difference between resolution and quality. 1080p doesn't say anything about quality, just the number of pixels.
post #8 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmframe View Post

OK, so can devices that capture 600 or 800 lines vertically and/or horizontally be morally and legally named as full HD machinery??? What type of crap is this?

We live in the hype of a 1080p world, yet, NOT ONE SINGLE "1080p" recording device does anywhere NEAR 1080p specs? These are the real numbers of the latest and greatest 1080p video recording devices available today:

[b]- Canon 5D Mark II: 700 lw/ph (horizontal) x 650 lw/ph (vertical)
- Canon T1i: 650 lw/ph (horizontal) x 775 lw/ph (vertical)
- Panasonic GH1: 750 lw/ph (horizontal) x 650 lw/ph (vertical)

You realize these are all SLR Still Picture cameras. The video capabilities are just a convenience add on. You shouldn't expect them to be good video cameras.


Quote:


So, every single camera registers about 1/2 to 1/3 of 1080p's HxV combined true specs.

Since when is it unusual that you've got to step beyond average consumer gear to get top performance. There's nothing new here. An 8Mpixel point and shoot isn't going to resolve more detail than a good 6Mpixel DSLR with a good lens. No offense but did you just crawl out from under a rock?

If "cheap" consumer cameras were perfect, you wouldn't need professional-grade cameras.

And you should really try to understand what the test is and what it's testing before raising a fuss:
Here's the description of the actual test and how it works.
http://www.imatest.com/docs/sharpness.html

Fixed pixel systems only reach their full "potential" with content that is perfectly aligned horizontally and vertically, this is not the case with this test, where the test patterns are tilted slightly.

Further digital cameras are sampling analog images (printed charts), which means they're subject to sampling limits, ie you can only capture half the sampling frequency.

Quote:


This is appalling to me! The bull in the world of "high definition" is never-ending!

People read way too much into things these days. "High Definition" is a capability not a guarantee.

Quote:


Its amazing... And I hear people all excited talking about 4K and stuff... OMG!...

I agree, as I said before, there's way more to quality than resolution.
post #9 of 48
I think many of us came into this thread hoping for more impressions on the W6000.
post #10 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendo View Post

I think many of us came into this thread hoping for more impressions on the W6000.

Agreed haha.
post #11 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmframe View Post

So, I just recently purchased a BenQ W6000 Projector in Taiwan (a great machine I have to say).

To my surprise, when viewing its footage on my new 1080p DLP projector, I got a feeling to be watching among the sharpest and detailed images I've ever captured coming from an "HD" camera.

The extent of the OP's W6000 coverage...
post #12 of 48
How about a review of the W6000
post #13 of 48
Last night as I was driving my M5 home with my new Benq w30000 bouncing around in the trunk, the wheel kept pulling to the right. The picture the w30000 projected was miraculous so my question is "Do you guys think I need a front end alignment? Is it possible I have a low tire? BTW, I have the only working w30k in the free world and I realize you guys are about to jump through your screens and choke me, but......."
post #14 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post

Last night as I was driving my M5 home with my new Benq w30000 bouncing around in the trunk

I'll take a review of that M5. I had the 400 hp version. FUN until it ran out of warranty. Then I got rid of it fast. What a POC! OT enough?
post #15 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

BluRay typically outputs 1080p. Now enough about that, give us your impressions on the W6000. Is it the light cannon everyone sais or does it work good for moderate screen sizes. Give us everything!

No, BluRay typically outputs ~817P! Most material is in 2.35 OAR.
post #16 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post

BTW, I have the only working w30k in the free world and I realize you guys are about to jump through your screens and choke me, but......."

Are you serious?? What can you share?????? Impression????
post #17 of 48
I think he was making a joke,

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrocyte74 View Post

Are you serious?? What can you share?????? Impression????
post #18 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by r2crd View Post

I think he was making a joke,

Indeed I was.
post #19 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

I'll take a review of that M5. I had the 400 hp version. FUN until it ran out of warranty. Then I got rid of it fast. What a POC! OT enough?

Very fast and fun. Loved it. Sold 12 hours before warranty expired. Out of warranty service and repairs will eat you alive.
post #20 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post

Very fast and fun. Loved it. Sold 12 hours before warranty expired. Out of warranty service and repairs will eat you alive.

They will indeed! My M5 had over $15,000 worth of warranty work done. Leaking valve covers, bad cam follower, failed cam actuator (it became a real put-put), the dreaded carbon build up in the secondary air supply channel in the heads, bad climate control unit, bad clutch.... honestly. When the diff started whining I traded it in on a Prius. THEY had to give ME money! Sales guy said that was a first. Now I have a boring car where I push a button and it goes... every time. Boring. Nice.
post #21 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

No, BluRay typically outputs ~817P! Most material is in 2.35 OAR.

It still has 1080. The lines are simply left blank. But they're still there in the format.
post #22 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

The OP is correct, a 1920x1080 display has 1080 vertical lines of resolution (the lines are stacked vertically), and 1920 lines of horizontal resolution (stacked horizontally). It's not the direction that the lines run, it's the direction that they're stacked.

Are you 100% sure?

The '1080' part of 1920X1080 represents the number of lines of resolution in the horizontal position, stacked one on top of the other vs. side by side as are the 1920 lines of resolution.

When you purchase a so called 'True HD' monitor, you are only getting 1080 lines vs. the old standard of 1200 (1920X1200).

If you watch a 1080p movie on your 1920X1200 monitor, you are going to have black bars top and bottom where the 1080p horizontal resolution does not fill the 1200 lines of horizontal resolution of the monitor. That's why the latest LCD panels are called True HD because the 1080p Blu Ray and/or HD DVD's will fill the panel without the top and bottom dead spaces/black bars.

Again, 1080 are the horizontal lines of resolution, not the vertical lines of resolution.
post #23 of 48
1920px = horizontal resolution
1080px = vertical resolution

This isn't complicated people, if you drop the references to "lines" it should make more sense. We deal with pixels now.

How many pixels tall is the image?

Does tall refer to horizontal or vertical?

post #24 of 48
I've always looked at it like this, how many columns of pixels are on a screen vs. how many rows of pixels. If there are 1920 columns of pixels, I referred to that as the number of vertical lines (columns) of resolution and if there were 1080 rows of pixels, that was the number of horizontal lines (rows) of resolution. Columns are certainly vertical and rows are certainly horizontal.

If you start at the bottom of your LCD screen and count upwards, on a 1920X1200 display, you will find 1200 rows of pixels. Yes, you are counting in the vertical but you are actually counting the number of horizontal rows of pixels. Similarly, if you start at the left hand edge of your 1920X1200 screen, and count left to right, you will count 1920 columns of pixels. You are counting horizontally but counting columns, which are vertical.

But, having read your post a couple of times, I can certainly see what you are saying.
post #25 of 48
If we use the old TV "number of lines metric", there are 1080 lines, each line having 1920 picture elements. Lines are left to right (Horizantal) stacked top to bottom (Vertical). If you pretend you are a CRT wou would draw line 1 (left to right) , line 2, ..., line 1080 ( left to right).
post #26 of 48
I thought TV res used to be given in lines per picture height
post #27 of 48
Why is this posted in this thread??? I for one could care less about your camera. I am interested in info on the 6000 however. Does it even turn on?
post #28 of 48
LoL, I agree.

No offense but when your the first person to get your hands on a projector people are waiting to hear about, and you discuss your camera instead, you should really think about where you want to post this.
post #29 of 48
I almost can't tell if it was serious or not.
post #30 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by LilGator View Post

I almost can't tell if it was serious or not.

Can't we please talk more about M5's now? I mean... isn't THAT what this thread was actually about?
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