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*Unofficial* Mitsubishi HC3800 Thread - Page 200

post #5971 of 6366
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp06011999 View Post

I posted about this awhile back thinking the HC3800 was having a problem connecting to the PS3 over 24 feet of HDMI, but spent more time trying "process of elimination" to get a clearer understanding of what is happening. AND, this is probably the wrong thread to post it in since it seems to be more of a BD issue rather than a HC3800 one.

Here's the scoop:
I get white flashes or flickers on the projected image during Blu-ray source material in scenes with alot of dark images, especially night scenes. They are there at the exact same time stamp of the material and only on the recorded material, not outside it in the letterbox black bars of the recorded material. I can actually pause the BD player on a flash and it will hold it there. We discussed this on here before and most comments thought it was a connection issue causing digital dropout. It does not appear to be anything with connections and I will explain that in a second. If I knew what the flashes were called I could Google it perhaps with better success. NOW, here's what I have done to narrow it down:

I played the exact same three BD discs on two different displays with two different BD players and with several different HDMI cables and component cables. Here are the results:
First, the cables and BD players made no difference whatsoever. HDMI, component, 6 feet, 24 feet, direct connect, through a switcher or not, PS3 or cheap Magnavox BD player mattered not. Nothing I did with the length of the run, the type of cables (HDMI or component) or what player or even what display made it go away. Only dumbing down the image at the BD player to 720p made it go away - mostly. It only happens on certain Blu rays and only in images with dark material. It is blatantly obvious on the 144 inch display that I have the HC3800 shooting. It seems to be getting worse as a problem (more BD discs with it) with the more current Blu rays out there. DVDs, games and OTA HD signals never do it, only BD. And more so with the more current BDs.

The difference in the severity of the artifact from the 50 inch plasma or projected at 144 inches from HC3800 display seemed only to be due to the size difference. Ya know, make the picture bigger and everything is magnified...like these flashes. Hence why this may be the wrong thread for this. And maybe why I am having a hard time finding others with this issue. It is not "really" an issue on the 50 inch plasma. But shoot 144 inch image and it is a BIG problem.

Anyhow, the only way I found to make the flashes disappear was to dumb down the output. Drop the BD player's (both of them) output to 720p (from 1080i, p or p/24) and the flashes become almost undetectable on the 144 inch display. They are a complete non-issue on the 50 inch plasma...but they are still there if you really try hard to see them, letting me know that they are not truly gone, just a non-issue at anything smaller than 51 inches.
On the 144 inch display of the HC3800 the flashes are extremely distracting on some BD sources if I output at anything over 720p.

So, I have dropped the output of all my BD players to 720p, including the PS3. Too many times, especially of late, I am hosting a movie and in a dark scene (like the bar scene in Captain America, the tiger night attack in BBC's Earth and most of Super 8 since the entire movie is shot WAY TOO DARK) these distracting white flashes happen. I spent an entire day trying every single connection and setting you could imagine with all these cables, players and displays and I am 100% confident that this is a BD issue, not even an HDMI issue. But what is it and why? And please, sorry for posting it here, but this is my projector and if I'm having these issues and thought it was the HC3800 at first then I bet others have too. I am confident that it is a common BD artifact that is only magnified by the 144 inch image of the HC3800 and therefore probably not noticeable to the masses with much smaller displays.

Please advise if you know what this apparent BD ONLY issue seems to be and thank you.

I've seen this on Super 8 and returned the disk because i thought it was defective. I haven't tried the new copy yet but I'll crack it open to tonight and give it a try and post back. If the flashing is still there I'll try changing to 720p from my usual 1080p/24.
post #5972 of 6366
Yea thanks for the replies thus far guys.

I will try to post a picture here soon to help explain it.

It's not a dirty disk. They are all spotless.

As for pipeline, I took everything out of the equation and connected directly from the BD players right into the displays with 3 different 6 foot HDMI cables, a 22 foot HDMI, an 8 foot component and a 6 foot component. No change whatsoever. And I even tried changing the cable length on the HC3800 menu. Nothing at all made it go away until I dropped the output to 720p.

I will see if I can get the flashes in the BBC Earth BD to show up on a picture. Problem there is getting enough light for the picture without washing out the projected image, but I'll give it a shot. And yep, the flashes are at set points in the recorded material at the exact same time stamps regardless of anything else. Doesn't that tell us that there are inheritant artifacts in the BDs themselves? Of course "why" and "how to rid them" I don't know.

Thanks so much for working on this with me though. I love this site!
post #5973 of 6366
I tried it with the new copy of Super 8 and the flashes are there as well. I switched off 24p and it's still there and then I switched to 720p and it's still there. This is the only BD I have that this does this whether it's 1080p or 720p.

I just did some searching it seems others have the same problem with Super 8. read post #1389 and a few past that. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....176733&page=70
post #5974 of 6366
BTW someone in the link suggested turning off any dynamic contrast which for us 3800 owners would be brilliant color. I tried and it made no difference.
post #5975 of 6366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

BTW someone in the link suggested turning off any dynamic contrast which for us 3800 owners would be brilliant color. I tried and it made no difference.



Dynamic contrast and BC are 2 totally different things.
post #5976 of 6366
Thanks fleaman I know the are different I was just trying relate the problem to a tech the 3800 has.
post #5977 of 6366
Did you guys try and disable Deep Color (worth a shot), this can cause misc issues and there is zero benefit to having it enabled as it is not used.

Jason
post #5978 of 6366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

mp06011999,
...The fact that you don't see sparklies in the upper and lower black bands of widescreen movies implies that the flashes are not due to signal degradation in the cables.

Your description really sounds like the video noise you're seeing is due to a poor signal coming off the BD disc itself. From what you say, the flashes would seem to be present in the signal recorded on the discs, especially if the white flashes always are in the same place when you review a particular scene. Pixels which are present on the disc but lost during playback are supposed to be repaired by the error correcting codes designed into the BD video and playback electronics.

Downgrading BD's native 1080 signal to 720p forces the player to blend video scanlines together. I'd expect this to disguise white flashes originating from the discs.

I assume you've tried gently cleaning the discs, and that they aren't scratched.

Yes, yes and yes, you seem to be understanding the issue exactly. No flashes in the black bars. No other discernible artifacts present. Everything plays fine with the exception of the flashes. Discs are clean. Deep Color is off. These white flashes are on the recorded material or at least caused to show up by the recorded material. It's as if there is too much information to transmit in those dark scenes and it keeps dropping out for split seconds. But to go through trying it on 2 totally different displays with actually 3 different BD players (including a PS3) and even over component... Hmmm.

I was so convinced that it was gonna be an HDMI issue until I tried the component cables and saw no improvement. And I agree that dropping the output to 720p simply masks the problem.

If anyone has the BBC's "Earth", try (@ 1080) the Angel Falls scene as they do a slow fly over. I get white flashes in the dark rocks of the river even though this is a bright daylight scene. Even the look back at the falls after the flyover has white flashes in the dark rock face of the mountain. And yes, I can pause playback and freeze right on the flashes.

I will try and take and post some pics of this particular scene later. While it is not the most obvious it is the most annoying as it is a very bright scene that only has SOME dark items in it. But I swear that must be telling us that the flashes are due to the amount of information; complexity of the scene / image. No? Drop the output to 720p and the scene looks fine.

Oh, in this same series, there are some mountain ridge flyovers in broad daylight that will ever so slightly have the white flashes on the dark mountain faces. The majority of those scenes are rough textured dark mountain faces against very bright clear skies. And of course the most obvious flashing scenes of the series are the ones of the nighttime lions' hunt. Flashes galore!

Finally, I don't know if it matters, but the 50 inch plasma I'm using as a comparison and mentioned here is only a 720p display while the HC3800 is obviously 1080p. The plasma has the flashes too unless I drop the output of the BD players to 720.
post #5979 of 6366
Wow, if the plasma has the problem too, then I guess you can rule out the projector. I'd say the next step is to move the projector/bd player to another location like another house and try.

Or maybe... IT'S JUST YOU! Get that photographic evidence and make sure you aren't losing it! HT can do that to you.
post #5980 of 6366
It's obvious there's some detail in those dark scenes god doesn't want you to see.

Or, it's a glitch in the matrix.

Or, if you watch Fringe

Really, this is too strange.
post #5981 of 6366
https://picasaweb.google.com/mp06011...eat=directlink


Okay, well I think I got the pics up. Of course I took them at way too big a file and therefore had to put in this link. Please let me know if this doesn't work. This is only the second time I have ever tried to post pics.

The pics at this link (hopefully) are of the white flashes throughout the BBC BD "Earth" with David Attenborough. There's 2 pics each per exact same scene one frame advance click apart; one showing the flashes and the other not - just one frame advance apart. The very first 2 pics are from the plasma and the rest are of the HC3800 projected image where the flashes are much much easier to see.

Taking these pics I discovered that:
*The night scenes are of pumas and not lions. lol
*The white flashes from way up close look like when you print a color photo on an ink jet and you're running out of ink and the paper starts to show through from under the image.
*Even at 720p, the flashes never truly disappear.
*The larger the image and / or the closer you are too it the more obvious the flashes and no doubt this would be why the 144 inch display is more troublesome than the 50 inch.
*The flashes never appear to run longer than only one frame in a row - never two frames side by side have it, at least what I checked. Notice the counter - it stays the same. So say like the last 2 pics are both @ Title 4, time 00:04:47, but they are exactly one "frame advance" apart. And the very next few frames (not shown) are clear again before one frame on down will once again "flash".

I can't believe no one else has had these issues. While my friends often say I'm nuts because they don't see anything, I know these flashes are there. I hope you guys can see them from these stills.

Put your minds to work and help me out here, please. Thanks again!

PS: Turned off Brilliant Color = no affect on the flashes.
post #5982 of 6366
I can see it in your pics, but I still have no clue considering all the things you've ruled out so far.

So I'm sticking with my glitch in the matrix theory for now
post #5983 of 6366
I've seen this on BD since I put in the HC3800 about 2 years ago. But, it just seems to be happening alot more these days with more and more BDs. I assumed it was too much information being crammed into BDs. But more importantly, whatever the cause, I decided that after Super 8 looked so bad and I had company over watching that I just had to revisit the issue. And I really am at a loss since I have tried to eliminate EVERYTHING that I can with so many of the things I mentioned. I even gave thought that maybe that one poster was right that maybe something in my house is causing it. But how can that be when it is the exact same frame each and everytime?

I'm hoping that either someone else has seen this and knows how to fix it or at the very least, someone knows what those white flashes are called so I can search it. They last just a split second and would probably never be noticed if they didn't happen repeatedly.
post #5984 of 6366
Hmmm that's what Super 8 look likes but not severe. With Super 8 it's really only noticeable on the dark scenes. If you look really hard you can see it on the light scenes but you really have to look hard.
post #5985 of 6366
Wholly crap! Guess what I found? Seeing as how I couldn't find anything about BDs having this flashing thing I decided to search for reviews of one of the most offending discs, "Earth" and look at these quotes below that I cut and pasted. Wow, I'm not so insane now And my guess is that I'm just so fricking anal about the image of this 12 foot screen that I made that I stare more at the image than the show. I'm betting you guys have these artifacts on your BDs as well, but if you're not pushing the limits in size and your not nit picking the Hell out of every frame, you have no issue. Check these folk's comments:

"Follow up: Based on suggestions of others, I played with connection, TV adjustements, noise reduction setting, and resolution settings. This is definitely a 1080P issue. At 720p, the problem is not present at all. At 1080i, the problem is present but almost unnoticeable. At 1080p problem is very obvious. The most annoying scene is disk 1, episode 3, as we fly over Angel Falls and look back. I can pause the picture and single frame advance to a frame that the 'snow' is very prominent. While picture is paused here, I can change resolutions, and see the noise only in 1080p. Since I do not have another blu-ray player, nor another TV, I cannot conclusively blame the disk. But I have had this problem only with this disk.

I recently got a HD-DVD player with planet earth in HD. After looking at the reviews for the blu-ray version I found someone else who commented on the poor video quality in certain scenes. Someone said it may have been interference from RF waves, it seems to only be noticeable in certain scenes from the air. Such as going down the waterfall in the fresh water episode, the screen tends to flicker a lot in the dark areas. This flaw is not apparent in the regular DVD version but that version is also very blurry compared to the HD version. There are plenty of absolutely beautiful scenes though.

Thank you for the balanced review. I have the blu-ray version and I have noticed the strobing noise in some dark scenes. I bought this along with a new tv, so I was worried the tv was defective, so it is good to see many people noticing the same problem. In my search, I found a useful suggestion of turning down the picture sharpness setting. This worked for me and you could try it. Even in light of the dark scene issues, the video is wonderful and I would still buy again.
"

In the future, I will post some pics of this flashing thing as I see it in other BDs from here on out. Of course that means I'll have to set my PS3 back to outputting 1080p. I still wanna know why this happens and what it's called. Hmmmm...
Also, just to add, I don't recall ever seeing these flashes in anything animated. It must have something to do with high definition filming in low light and / or too much information. I'm guessing.
post #5986 of 6366
I've never seen the flashes, but I've also never seen CA, super8 or the Earth blu discs.
post #5987 of 6366
I view at 120" and I am one anal, nit picky, ocd, s.o.b with better than 20/20 so if this issue were present on my 3800 I can promise I would have already been here complaining about it.

As a matter of fact I just did a full 6500k/D65 calibration on it a few days ago and the only oddity I noticed was a noisy yellow (once tweaked this went away). It has been about 100 hours since the last calibration so I figured I would punish myself with the 3800's odd CMS and go for broke, the lamp had drifted a reasonable amount which was not shocking considering I calibrated it several times when it was very new (but it was enough to make me reset and start over).

I'll try to check out Super 8 soon and see what happens (I watched it a while back but not on the 3800).

Jason
post #5988 of 6366
Yea ANYone, do let me know if you do start noticing / having these flashes. It's mind boggling. I gotta think it has to do with the setting of the filming. Like I said before, never recall ever seeing these flashes in animations or CGI. Just watched all 3 Matrix on BD with not a single issue. And I'm absolutely sure they never show up in PS3 or 360 games and never on OTA HD signals. ONLY on some Blu-rays and absolutely regardless of anything HDMI - which really surprises me, btw.

I'm gonna take the Earth BD over to a buddy's house and try it on his 70 inch DLP. That should confirm if it's the disc or not. Will update after. Of course the comments that I cut, pasted & posted earlier of other folks detailing the EXACT same Earth BD issues pretty much tells me that it is the discs; that at least some other folks are seeing / having these flashes.

Anyone think that maybe there's just bad batches of Blu-rays being made that only some of us may be getting?

Thank you to everyone that has contributed to this little mystery. While we still may not have an answer, I can say with complete confidence that at least we're as close as we've ever been
post #5989 of 6366
I tried lowering the sharpness as your post suggested and I can make the effect come and go on Super 8 by turning the sharpness up or down. For some reason this is the only BD that has this effect.
Quote:


In my search, I found a useful suggestion of turning down the picture sharpness setting. This worked for me and you could try it. Even in light of the dark scene issues, the video is wonderful and I would still buy again."
post #5990 of 6366
What were you guys running your sharpness at, it should not be past +1.

Jason
post #5991 of 6366
Jason, what number are you using for contrast? Did you find that your HC3800 clips red? Mine does, according to the Clipping pattern on the S & M cal. disc. To eliminate the red clipping, I need to reduce contrast to (-12) which is a little too dim. And if I go above (-4) contrast, I get a pink color shift. So I've been using (-4) for contrast. Does that seem right to you? Thanks.
post #5992 of 6366
Hey Jim,

I don't have it powered up at the moment and did not write down the settings as of yet but I do seem to recall hitting -12 on Contrast. The cal ran me into the wee hours of the morning (got a late start) but I think I was bouncing back and forth from -13 to -12 and settled on -12. I also noticed a pretty drastic color shift in the ballpark of where you noticed it, I think mine was shifting at about -7.

* I should add that I do use a High Power screen so I get a 30-40% boost, I can see -12 being a bit dim on a matte screen.

Jason
post #5993 of 6366
@mp06011999

You talking about the blue lines at the bottom of the screen in Super8?
For Super8, those lines were even visible on the $100,000 Sony4k projector I watched it on at the theaters. I think it some type of weird thing they tried to do to screw with you regarding purposefully introducing artifacts. Also, Super8 uses some film trickery to try to make parts of the movie more film-like (hence more Super8 like), but they don't always succeed. The movie actually looks good in a different sort of way, kind of like how a scratched record sounds...

The new Star Trek does it too but in a different way. These people doing that think they are clever but it is just not clever. I am also dissatisfied of the custom color added or altered in the mastering used in so many movies now. Just throw a movie with near perfect mastered color like TREE of LIFE (not a good movie but incredible camera work), then throw in some other movie where they tinted everyone's faces yellow and you'll see what you are missing, enough to drive you nuts. For me, real looking skin colors is more immersive than making people look like yellow aliens. If I remember correctly, one of the more recent movies I saw with good skin tone color was Mr. Popper's Penguins with Jim Carey, and then Dolphin Tale was probably decent although I think they screwed with it a bit to give it more punch. The movie Driver had some major tinting in some scenes, totally on purpose to give you a depressed feel, but the color and lighting changes don't work for me most of the time, doesn't make me depressed just makes me feel like I need to re-calibrate my device.
post #5994 of 6366
No, not talking about the "flares" that that director of Super 8 likes to use. I'm talking about these : https://picasaweb.google.com/mp06011...eat=directlink

Sharpness setting: Well, I guess I gotta spend some more time on it because I just checked and I'm running my sharpness at +4. I popped in the Earth BD to the Angel Falls scene and dropping the sharpness to +1, I can make the flash disappear about 90% to hardly visible. The flashes DON'T get any better going below +1, but the overall image definitely gets too fuzzy. With the exception of the flashes, the image clarity looks best at +2 to +4 (& fake at the highest setting of +5). There is a very noticeable loss in both detail and flashes going from +2 to +1. Guess I gotta go through the settings again.

I've had about three different overall settings I've stuck with over the 2 years of ownership. One for a new bulb, an aged bulb and one I do for WAY TOO DARK of movies these days. Why most movies and tv crime dramas are filmed so fricking dark these days is just plain irritating. Animation, daytime shows and most comedies are usually just about right. One crime drama movie I've seen that's just right is Before the Devil Knows Your Dead. Wow, talk about using HD correctly. The director even comments on it in the special features how HD allows him to capture more detail in his shots without having to overlight them. There's amazing image detail with low-light interior scenes that just give the perfect balance. Unfortunately, that's not the norm.

I'll mess with my settings again and report back. It is obvious "sharpness" helps with the flashes as nothing else has. And if any of you get a chance, watch Before the Devil Knows Your Dead and catch some of those interior shots like in the apartment or at the desk. Amazingly clear, full of detail, low-light scenes yet nothing gets lost in the shadows. For my eyes, picture perfect. Oh, plus you get to see Ms. Tomei naked! I did say picture perfect, right?
post #5995 of 6366
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Hey Jim,

I don't have it powered up at the moment and did not write down the settings as of yet but I do seem to recall hitting -12 on Contrast. The cal ran me into the wee hours of the morning (got a late start) but I think I was bouncing back and forth from -13 to -12 and settled on -12. I also noticed a pretty drastic color shift in the ballpark of where you noticed it, I think mine was shifting at about -7.

* I should add that I do use a High Power screen so I get a 30-40% boost, I can see -12 being a bit dim on a matte screen.

Jason

Thanks Jason. Is your's also clipping red? I wonder if it's common with the HC3800? Keep in mind that I don't have any special equipment, so I'm trying to see where the pink color shift starts by eye, and it's not easy. I have the AVS-HD709 test patterns and the S & M cal. disc.
post #5996 of 6366
Jim,

Just about any/every digital display will clip colors if the contrast is pushed too far, this is normal, and yes my 3800 will clip Red along with several other colors if contrast is set too high. Your eyes should see the red/pink push a bit easier if you toss up full field 100 IRE, give your eyes a minute to adjust. This can be tough though depending on what your eyes/brain are accustomed to viewing.

Jason
post #5997 of 6366
Wow - I was just checking black diamond screen prices. Check this out ... the 4K Sony projector VPL-VW1000ES ... on the black diamond screen. Only $25,000 for the 4K projector plus another $3,300 for the screen. Might be a long while for my price point - but impressive http://www.screeninnovations.com/ What are those winning lotto numbers again ??? Eh - who needs a car.
post #5998 of 6366
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Jim,

Just about any/every digital display will clip colors if the contrast is pushed too far, this is normal, and yes my 3800 will clip Red along with several other colors if contrast is set too high. Your eyes should see the red/pink push a bit easier if you toss up full field 100 IRE, give your eyes a minute to adjust. This can be tough though depending on what your eyes/brain are accustomed to viewing.

Jason

Full field 100 IRE? I have the S & M cal. disc and the AVS HD709 test patterns. Do either of these have that test pattern? Thanks.
post #5999 of 6366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Full field 100 IRE? I have the S & M cal. disc and the AVS HD709 test patterns. Do either of these have that test pattern? Thanks.

Yes, they both have it from what I recall (full field WHITE @ 100 IRE). I don't use either very often since I use a pc to do calibrations. If you have a pc connected to your 3800 you can use something like Colorfacts test patterns.

Jason
post #6000 of 6366
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Yes, they both have it from what I recall (full field WHITE @ 100 IRE). I don't use either very often since I use a pc to do calibrations. If you have a pc connected to your 3800 you can use something like Colorfacts test patterns.

Jason

I'll have to look and see if they have a test pattern labeled as such. I don't think the AVS test patterns are labeled though.
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