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The Official ChromaPure thread - Page 80

post #2371 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

It's might be the TV and not the D3.

I also have a PN51D8000 and use a D3 profiled from an i1Pro and Accupel patterns. Calibration reports are excellent but I still get a bit of pink in a couple of steps.

Wow. Totally different pattern source and similar result. It's hard to believe that this much color isn't detected by these probes! I assume you're using a totally different gray ramp as well. It is easiest to see in the gray steps but also seen in the continuous gray ramp at approximately the same points.

Odd (to me) that 100% white looks perfectly white while the band right next to it is pinkish.

I had to turn up 2p WB red gain to 36 (default is 25 and it only goes to 40, as you know) just to get enough red gain to set the 10p upper IREs. Otherwise I ran out of red setting headroom between IRE 60-100. Even now I use red 7 for 100% white) This is WAY different than anybody reported in the settings thread and seems odd that on the ramp it looks too red.
post #2372 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

I would like to see this addressed as well...I didn't know it worked otherwise in earlier versions.

Me too. I also didn't know it was easier in earlier versions.
post #2373 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

So now to the problem. After getting a near perfect calibration time and time again, the grayscale steps screen shows a variety of color tinges at various higher IRE points. In particular a definite pink tinge is seen at IRE90. Yet the dE at IRE90 is <1.

I should mention that I do have to increase red gain in my 2 point grayscale setting and then increase it more in the higher IRE in the 10 point settings. So the D3 or Chromapure or some erroneous setup I have chosen dictates these higher than expected red gain settings. But toggling back and forth between 10 point ON/OFF as well as turning 2 point back to default clearly shows the abnormal red tint of the higher IRE. Honestly, I think it's the D3.

Is there any way to figure this out without sending the probe back?

None that I can think of. The only thing I can do when someone reports a reading that seems inconsistent with visual assessment is test the meter against a known reference.
post #2374 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Prior to v2.1, the advanced color management gave all the data on one single page, with one click. I loved it and thoroughly miss it.

The new module gives the option to concentrate on subsets, which is great and can save some time when you are working on a specific color, but for some reason it has lost the ability to offer a global snapshot in one click.

And the previous version offered no reporting, no dE chart, no luminance chart, no data export, and no support for meter corrections. It provided raw xyY data and dE data with CIE charts and nothing else. On top of that it was impossibly fugly.

With the upgrade there was a trade-off between substantially increased functionality and better aesthetics (though that's a subjective judgment) on the one hand and less automation on the other hand. Automation in this module is something we can always add, but programming time is finite and we have much higher priority issues on our plate that deal with new and enhanced functionality.
post #2375 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

It's hard to believe that this much color isn't detected by these probes!

I don't think that is what is happening. Place the probe on the ramp just at the spot where it looks pinkish to you. How does it measure? Reproducing a single window of one shade of gray is a different task for a display than reproducing a full ramp of different shades of gray.

I seriously doubt that this has anything to do with the probe.

When there is a discrepancy between how a commercial display visibly performs and how well it measures, I would caution against assuming that the display is the reference against which the calibration equipment is judged. Most often, all that occurs is that the calibration equipment simply reveals some flaw in the display's performance, not vice-versa. Consumer displays are just not manufactured to meet the exacting expectations of those who have invested in expensive calibration equipment.

In this particular case, it is hard to imagine--even in principle--how a probe could measure 100% to a high degree of accuracy, but then fail miserably at 90%. That's just about impossible.
post #2376 of 5348
I notice the higher stimulus pink tinge on greyscale steps on my plasma as well, and in fact several other plasma I've seen. My own insane theory is it has to do with APL, and a lesser extent, gamma. I have my duo calibrated display at 2.2 and 2.3; the 2.3 profile has no pink tinge. The 2.2 has a visible, albeit not severe, pink tinge at higher stimulus levels. You can check how your display responds to brightness effects on the greyscale with the AVS disc pattern (forgot the name) that shows greyscale in the corner. See how the greyscale visually changes as the screen gets lighter and darker. If you see it change, then you know it's not the meter (on my 2.2 profile, I can see it turn slightly pink as the screen gets bright, and revert as the screen gets darker). You can try experimenting with greater gamma values to see if it alleviates the issue.
post #2377 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

I recall past posts by you that advised full field patterns for LCD back lit LED panels with local dimming since local dimming can alter the intensity of windowed patterns during calibration. Or disabling local dimming.

Are you now saying that this is no longer an issue?

Not necessarily. It wasn't local dimming that was the issue. It was dynamic luminance, similar to what you would get with a dynamic iris on a front projector. Some Samsung LCDs have this. The problem was that if you used windows the dynamic circuit would get confused, lowering luminance too much at low levels and not raising it enough at high levels. Using fields resolves this problem.

On the Duo, the situation is a little different. The window is larger than most windows, so it may not have this problem. You would just have to test it. Again, local dimming is not the issue--it is dynamic luminance adjustment circuitry.

My initial concern with the Duo window was that it was too large, which would result in inaccurate calibrations for voltage-limiting displays, such as plasmas and CRTs. However, repeated measurements have revealed that this is not in fact a problem.
post #2378 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1981 View Post

I notice the higher stimulus pink tinge on greyscale steps on my plasma as well, and in fact several other plasma I've seen. My own insane theory is it has to do with APL, and a lesser extent, gamma.

I don't think it is insane at all. I'd say it is a fair estimation of what's happening.
post #2379 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I don't think that is what is happening. Place the probe on the ramp just at the spot where it looks pinkish to you. How does it measure? Reproducing a single window of one shade of gray is a different task for a display than reproducing a full ramp of different shades of gray.

I seriously doubt that this has anything to do with the probe.

When there is a discrepancy between how a commercial display visibly performs and how well it measures, I would caution against assuming that the display is the reference against which the calibration equipment is judged. Most often, all that occurs is that the calibration equipment simply reveals some flaw in the display's performance, not vice-versa. Consumer displays are just not manufactured to meet the exacting expectations of those who have invested in expensive calibration equipment.

In this particular case, it is hard to imagine--even in principle--how a probe could measure 100% to a high degree of accuracy, but then fail miserably at 90%. That's just about impossible.

Good idea. I'll try the probe on the pinkish area. How wide is the viewing angle of the D3? As in, how close does it have to be to the screen to be able to sample the relatively narrow area?

Also, I wonder why the APL windows don't look tinted. It's all the same IRE points .... maybe they do and I haven't noticed. It would be easier to measure one of them.
post #2380 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1981 View Post

I notice the higher stimulus pink tinge on greyscale steps on my plasma as well, and in fact several other plasma I've seen. My own insane theory is it has to do with APL, and a lesser extent, gamma. I have my duo calibrated display at 2.2 and 2.3; the 2.3 profile has no pink tinge. The 2.2 has a visible, albeit not severe, pink tinge at higher stimulus levels. You can check how your display responds to brightness effects on the greyscale with the AVS disc pattern (forgot the name) that shows greyscale in the corner. See how the greyscale visually changes as the screen gets lighter and darker. If you see it change, then you know it's not the meter (on my 2.2 profile, I can see it turn slightly pink as the screen gets bright, and revert as the screen gets darker). You can try experimenting with greater gamma values to see if it alleviates the issue.

I'll try a higher gamma. Thanks for the tip.

I don't follow the APL theory. That chapter in the AVS disc (A5 Dynamic Brightness) just shows how the ABL effects plasmas and lets you see why you need to use APL windows with a plasma calibrations.
post #2381 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I don't think it is insane at all. I'd say it is a fair estimation of what's happening.

Thanks for the reassurance, Tom. When you have a low-end display, you're hesitant to comment on other, better displays.

One thing I observed is the APL test patterns do not alleviate the greyscale ramp discoloration, or if it does, the tinge is usually another color (green, in my observations). Keep in mind that APL patterns are just that, an average level, not an all encompassing one. The greyscale ramp pattern is pretty bright, so you might see discoloration even if your APL pattern checks out. Whatever pattern you choose, make sure it corresponds to real world viewing. I own a plasma and there is a general belief (though not among the pros) to use APL patterns to work around the ABL of plasma, but on mine they produce visibly poor results on actual content.

The reason why I guess gamma has a role is that it makes the picture darker, which on my display lowers the effect of the ABL. I guess you can also try lowering overall screen luminance too. Hope it works out for you.
post #2382 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

And the previous version offered no reporting, no dE chart, no luminance chart, no data export, and no support for meter corrections. It provided raw xyY data and dE data with CIE charts and nothing else. On top of that it was impossibly fugly.

With the upgrade there was a trade-off between substantially increased functionality and better aesthetics (though that's a subjective judgment) on the one hand and less automation on the other hand. Automation in this module is something we can always add, but programming time is finite and we have much higher priority issues on our plate that deal with new and enhanced functionality.

This is highly debatable. The old module offered an overall view which was a great report in itself (at least for the advanced user), and the CIE chart was much more readable than the new ones, and therefore much more useable. In the new module, the scale is wrong and the points are plotted way to close to each other to give a clear idea of where they actually sit, especially for a color like cyan, where they are all bundled next to each other.

All this was reported at the time, and I have completely given up on this, even if it seems you might have improved this slightly in the latest version.

As I said, I am all for the new features, and for the advanced report, which is great. I'm not asking to go back to the old module. I'm just saying that when you have a radiance (or use the internal patterns generator through HDMI I believe), that measurements are automated - as they should be - for reading greyscale, gamma and gamut, it's a bit ridiculous that one year down the line it's still manual for the module which requires the most measurements. Even HCFR can do it automatically!

The advanced calibration module used to be, at least for advanced users, one of the unique selling points of Chromapure versus the competition (definitely one of the reasons why I bought the software at the time). It became - to me - with V2.1 one of the most frustrating parts of the software, because of the 43 clicks and the five menus to pull out to get a global snapshot.

I've been asking for the return of this (automation) for about a year, and although I understand you have other priorities as you seem to cater more for the beginners than the advanced users, I feel that after a year it's fair to ask whether what I believed was a bug (breaking existing functionality, ie automation for a time consuming task) is indeed a bug or a "feature". By the way, automation in the ACM isn't a new feature. It was there prior to 2.1, and used to work great with the internal pattern generator. It's a broken feature, replaced by others.

I totally accept that you have other priorities, and it seems that you are entirely right from a business point of view, as only three users seem to be asking for this, myself included.

Thank you for confirming we should not expect this to be fixed in a near future, I will stop waiting for it to happen.

And most importantly, keep up the good work
post #2383 of 5348
Hi,
I have been trying to make the auto-calibration option works and seems impossible to me. I downloaded the latest chroma Pure software and bougth auto cal add on. I run the serial cable from my Duo to 3 different laptops to try. In all of them system recognices the USB to serial adaptor and "prolific usb to serial apdator com7" appears; follow all steps to choose and define the Duo as the processor and when I hit the "test option" nothing appears in the screen. I verified that the same speed rate and port is chosen in the Duo/software. Would like to know if I missing something. By the way, I have tried two different adaptors and results are the same. My latops are all Windows 7 64. thanks in advance.
post #2384 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorsan View Post

I have been trying to make the auto-calibration option works and seems impossible to me. I downloaded the latest chroma Pure software and bougth auto cal add on. I run the serial cable from my Duo to 3 different laptops to try. In all of them system recognices the USB to serial adaptor and "prolific usb to serial apdator com7" appears; follow all steps to choose and define the Duo as the processor and when I hit the "test option" nothing appears in the screen. I verified that the same speed rate and port is chosen in the Duo/software. Would like to know if I missing something. By the way, I have tried two different adaptors and results are the same. My latops are all Windows 7 64.

If "test connection" does not produce a red patch then there is no communication between the software and the Duo. There is something simple that you are missing. Verify the following:
1. Windows Device Manager, the Duo, and the CP Serial Port Configuration window all report 19200 Baud.
2. Windows Device Manager and CP Serial Port Configuration window both report COMM 7.
3. "Enable Signal Generator Support" is checked.
4. You are using the serial cable that came with the Duo.

That is all that is necessary. Can you verify that you can connect to the Duo using another application? Try connecting using this.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...9&d=1319285721
Can you connect to this?
post #2385 of 5348
Tom, You nail it this time!!! was the serial cable. I was using a longer one (I have my duo in other room) and not the original. As soon as switch cables, everything isworking. Thanks man.
post #2386 of 5348
ChromaPure now supports AccuPel HDG-4000 100% Windows and 75% Fields. You can download using the same link as with 2.2.12, as we didn't change the version number. AccuPel support is the only difference.

This clarifies what the versions of AccuPel support.

Test Pattern HDG-3000 HDG-4000 DVG-5000
100% Windows No Support Supported With Custom Colors Only Native Support
75% Windows Native Support Native Support Native Support
100% Fields Native Support Native Support Native Support
75% Fields No Support Supported With Custom Colors Only Native Support
post #2387 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Wow. Totally different pattern source and similar result. It's hard to believe that this much color isn't detected by these probes! I assume you're using a totally different gray ramp as well. It is easiest to see in the gray steps but also seen in the continuous gray ramp at approximately the same points.

Odd (to me) that 100% white looks perfectly white while the band right next to it is pinkish.

I had to turn up 2p WB red gain to 36 (default is 25 and it only goes to 40, as you know) just to get enough red gain to set the 10p upper IREs. Otherwise I ran out of red setting headroom between IRE 60-100. Even now I use red 7 for 100% white) This is WAY different than anybody reported in the settings thread and seems odd that on the ramp it looks too red.

Found the following in my notes:

The only tint you can detect is in reference to the white that is the brightest shade of gray on the screen.

That's why when red clips and the brightest white goes blue, your eye tells you all the lower swatches just turned pinkish.

Your eye can be sensitive to see if the grayscale is consistent, but it doesn't have a clue what the whitepoint is.
post #2388 of 5348
Someone help me out here. I do not seem to be able to profile my i1D3 with my i1Pro and I have tried it on two plasmas and three LCD monitors.

After the profiling, I just click Apply right? And that should be it, I think. But even after this profiling, the D3 still results in quite a bit of difference. Red always lower and blue always higher than the i1Pro......

The funny thing is that with or without profiling the D3, it always looks better by eye than the i1Pro. Mine is bought within a year from Tom, revision D.

Or the i1Pro simply is not good to measure grayscales on LCD?
post #2389 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by slimer777 View Post

Someone help me out here. I do not seem to be able to profile my i1D3 with my i1Pro and I have tried it on two plasmas and three LCD monitors.

After the profiling, I just click Apply right? And that should be it, I think. But even after this profiling, the D3 still results in quite a bit of difference. Red always lower and blue always higher than the i1Pro......

The funny thing is that with or without profiling the D3, it always looks better by eye than the i1Pro. Mine is bought within a year from Tom, revision D.

Or the i1Pro simply is not good to measure grayscales on LCD?

You must be missing a step. I just tried it.

Correction Module


D3 Measurements after correction


As you can see, the D3 measurement post correction are the same as the native i1Pro measurements.
post #2390 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

SpectralCal contracted with DVDO to provide this via rs-232. We would consider doing the same, but there are no problems with the current test patterns, so we don't see this as cost effective. The only problem I have seen with the Duo patterns is when you use the remote control the on-screen information corrupts the image being read by the meter. When using rs-232 this is not a problem.

Just so you know, apparently, the next version of CalMan will allow the Duo to display color windows in any Saturation, as well as any size.

I don't see how I can spend $1000 on a device, and not be allowed to access all its built-in capabilities. Simplay should issue a firmware update to encorporate this.

I certainly don't blame Tom Huffman or ChromaPure for this. No one should have to pay to allow a machine they own to do what it's capable of doing.
post #2391 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

Just so you know, apparently, the next version of CalMan will allow the Duo to display color windows in any Saturation, as well as any size.

I don't see how I can spend $1000 on a device, and not be allowed to access all its built-in capabilities. Simplay should issue a firmware update to encorporate this.

I certainly don't blame Tom Huffman or ChromaPure for this. No one should have to pay to allow a machine they own to do what it's capable of doing.

BTW, the Lumagen already supports this, and it is available for all users.
post #2392 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

BTW, the Lumagen already supports this, and it is available for all users.

Apparently, the Duo supports it, but it's not available for all users. Sad, really.
post #2393 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post


Just so you know, apparently, the next version of CalMan will allow the Duo to display color windows in any Saturation, as well as any size.

I don't see how I can spend $1000 on a device, and not be allowed to access all its built-in capabilities. Simplay should issue a firmware update to encorporate this.

I certainly don't blame Tom Huffman or ChromaPure for this. No one should have to pay to allow a machine they own to do what it's capable of doing.

I'm slightly irritated by this also. I have no problem with Calman displaying precise patterns with the Duo through its autocal, but if the Duo does possess the ability to resize windows (albeit manually) then that control should be available to all users.

The last thing Simplay needs to do is to further irritate its customers.
post #2394 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1981 View Post

I'm slightly irritated by this also. I have no problem with Calman displaying precise patterns with the Duo through its autocal, but if the Duo does possess the ability to resize windows (albeit manually) then that control should be available to all users.

The last thing Simplay needs to do is to further irritate its customers.

+1 My point exactly. Changing Saturations as well.
post #2395 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Found the following in my notes:

The only tint you can detect is in reference to the white that is the brightest shade of gray on the screen.

That's why when red clips and the brightest white goes blue, your eye tells you all the lower swatches just turned pinkish.

Your eye can be sensitive to see if the grayscale is consistent, but it doesn't have a clue what the whitepoint is.

Ha! Now that is interesting that the pink is basically an optical illusion! IF, the white point is off. But if it is .313/.329 and dE values all measure <1 with a 10 point calibration, how can it be off?
post #2396 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

Just so you know, apparently, the next version of CalMan will allow the Duo to display color windows in any Saturation, as well as any size.

I don't see how I can spend $1000 on a device, and not be allowed to access all its built-in capabilities. Simplay should issue a firmware update to encorporate this.

I certainly don't blame Tom Huffman or ChromaPure for this. No one should have to pay to allow a machine they own to do what it's capable of doing.

I agree completely.
post #2397 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Ha! Now that is interesting that the pink is basically an optical illusion! IF, the white point is off. But if it is .313/.329 and dE values all measure <1 with a 10 point calibration, how can it be off?

If 100% is at D65 than you shouldn't see coloration at the lower luminations if they are at the same point. An easy test is to cover up the upper end luminance of a step pattern and observe how the lower values look without the brighter reference.
post #2398 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

If 100% is at D65 than you shouldn't see coloration at the lower luminations if they are at the same point. An easy test is to cover up the upper end luminance of a step pattern and observe how the lower values look without the brighter reference.

Where do you learn things like this?
post #2399 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

You must be missing a step. I just tried it.

Correction Module


D3 Measurements after correction


As you can see, the D3 measurement post correction are the same as the native i1Pro measurements.

Only one thing that I can think of. I remember someone said you need to unplug the i1D2 before using the i1Pro. Does the same goes for the i1D3 and i1pro combo? Do they run on the same driver from Xrite?

What I ususally do is plug in both meters and select and initiate the i1Pro first, take measurements then 'disconnect' it and initiate the i1D3. Is it a known fact than you cannot plug in two Xrite products simultaneously?

Thanks.
post #2400 of 5348
Lets look at my charts;

First, the calibration table.


Then, the calibrated results of the i1D3 after profiling to an i1Pro.


All seems to be good and working.

Now this is my problem; grayscale measurements from i1D3;


Then there is the result of the i1Pro;


I know that the profiling was only at the 100% point so at least at 100IRE they should measure the same, right?

And lets just say the color space of a monitor is really 'funny' and does not accomodate to normal specification. Would the grayscale results be different from 10-90IRE and only measure the same at 100IRE after profiling?

It is very obvious that the i1Pro's measurements are tainted after being profilied to the i1D3. Or I just do not know what I am talking about?

** By the way, I tested that unplugging either one makes no difference to the results.
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