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The Official ChromaPure thread - Page 11

post #301 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I occured to me recently that it would be really useful to have a white balance display (in real time) on the same screen as the gamma calibration page. I find that when I'm adjusting my VideoEQ to set the gamma up point by point from 100 IRE down, I then have to go back to check the RGB at each 10 IRE point as well due to some interaction/drift.

If there was a way to display them both together this would be useful. Also, is there way to display different colour saturations on the same colour gamut chart it would be helpful (although I can check this using HFCR, if I want to).

The first point is something I had thought of. I will put this on our development list. The second suggestion is scheduled for our next release.
post #302 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I occured to me recently that it would be really useful to have a white balance display (in real time) on the same screen as the gamma calibration page. I find that when I'm adjusting my VideoEQ to set the gamma up point by point from 100 IRE down, I then have to go back to check the RGB at each 10 IRE point as well due to some interaction/drift.
.

I like the idea. I would say that the graphic should be a luminance graphic (3 color bars) like a stair where each step would be determined by the gama preselected and the 100 IRE should be measured first. Any other idea?

Federico
post #303 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I occured to me recently that it would be really useful to have a white balance display (in real time) on the same screen as the gamma calibration page.

Good idea. I have had to go back and forth between them but having a WB reading on the Gamma would be nice.
post #304 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The first point is something I had thought of. I will put this on our development list. The second suggestion is scheduled for our next release.

Thanks for considering the suggestions, it's also great that the second is already in the works.
post #305 of 5345
OK, managed to calibrate, with the ChromaPure, my LG 55LH90 with very, very little red by paying more attention! Have not been able to get as close with my Calman. The thing here with both sets of calibration software. Will a side lit LED require a different set of Tables than a Back Lit LED? ChromaPure I know, at the present time is lacking for the LED (I assume this will be rectified in ChromaPure2?). Calman will not say which LED it's Tables are for. This is why I'm asking about whether a different set of tables is required. Tom, you mentioned something about a Pro version for an Individuals personal Brand and Model of TV. Any idea as to cost? And Time frame?
post #306 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Tom, you mentioned something about a Pro version for an Individuals personal Brand and Model of TV. Any idea as to cost? And Time frame?

Soon--weeks, not months. The upgrade price for existing customers will be very reasonable. Sorry I can't be more specific.
post #307 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

No shareware ... try it first version.

regards

Where is the try it demo version??


bob
post #308 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Where is the try it demo version??

All we have are the online demos.
post #309 of 5345
Yesterday 07:55 PM
p5browne
ChromaPure2?

OK, managed to calibrate, with the ChromaPure, my LG 55LH90 with very, very little red by paying more attention! Have not been able to get as close with my Calman. The thing here with both sets of calibration software. Will a side lit LED require a different set of Tables than a Back Lit LED? ChromaPure I know, at the present time is lacking for the LED (I assume this will be rectified in ChromaPure2?). Calman will not say which LED it's Tables are for. This is why I'm asking about whether a different set of tables is required. Tom, you mentioned something about a Pro version for an Individuals personal Brand and Model of TV. Any idea as to cost? And Time frame?


P5Browne,

Your question regarding different tables needed for a display other then the one which it was calibrated on is an issue which has been brought up before. The accuracy of the "table" provided will only be accurate for the display which it was made on. Although LCD backlit displays may be similar to one another they have different lamps and LCD panels which create significant differences which the analyzer cannot compensate for. These differences will yield an error in the data displayed in the software used to calibrate the display with. Some displays will be close and others will be further from the accurate reference instrument values. You will have no way of knowing how accurate your calibration is even after you have spent a considerable amount of time calibrating with the instrument in the field.

A generic "table" is not the best way to approach this issue even for a single display model as there are small differences between meters even within a single lot from the manufacturer and greater ones from different lots. This makes the "table" not able to provide as great a degree of accuracy as having an instrument which receives an "individual" calibration. This method will eliminate any differences found between units however it is still limited to being accurate for just one display model! Going a step further as the back light ages and its spectral output changes the calibration in the instrument does not change and will therefore provide a flawed result when the instrument is used on the display after it has aged.

For a manufacturer to be able to provide a user with a model specific calibration would be quite costly as they would need to inventory each model to have on hand to perform the calibration with. The calibration accuracy for that monitor would constantly change over time as the panel life increases requiring recalibration of the instrument. The lamp does not only become dimmer as it ages its spectral content changes as well. This is where it becomes problematic as your display which now has several thousand hours on its backlight vs the lab which calibrates your instrument which has substantially fewer hours on their sample. The calibration will not work well in this scenario which is why you really need to purchase a spectroradiometer if you require any degree of accuracy for your work.

Profiling a filter based analyzer is at best a band aid approach to working with the low cost instrument in the field. You in reality need a profile for each and every display made with a reference spectroradiometer to provide accurate results. This process would need to be repeated on a somewhat regular basis with backlit LCD displays due to the lamps spectral output changing over time. This issue will become greater with emerging lighting technologies as laser based displays (projectors) are already beginning to appear with a larger push in the 4th quarter this year by several manufacturers.
post #310 of 5345
And boy do I know what that's all about! This is the problem I've been trying to get across to other calibrators, it's a constant battle to keep the Set aligned due to the aging problem. The other problem that arose was when do you get a professional in? First week, after first month, etc. Even being Professionally calibrated, how long can you expect the Set to be on top of it's game? When I've calibrated, and return a month later the settings all have to be changed. I have a Chroma5 - again how many years can one expect to get out of it? So from what you are saying, the calibration, when done, is pretty close, but will never be dead on due to various factors involved? So it appears for your Set to be in tip top shape, you better learn to do it yourself, and do it on a regular basis!
post #311 of 5345
Here are after several hours of getting that perfectly, calibrated PQ that has all the results, lines and diagrams dead on, why do I feel a sense of dissatisfaction with the end results? Finally hit me last night in the shower! What are the bulk of us using when we calibrate? I bet the answer in most cases will be a laptop. And what kind of screen have we been watching during the whole calibration process? Why a Blue/White screen with Whiter Whites and Colour Popping pictures that's going to be more exciting then the end results we ended up on the big screen! Explains why I was happier when I calibrated my wife's set. I was on a desktop, 10 feet away, and despite the same type of screen it didn't hit me to as much degree.
post #312 of 5345
Do the patterns on the GetGray dvd work well with the Chromapure SW?
post #313 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Do the patterns on the GetGray dvd work well with the Chromapure SW?

Any standard set of test patterns will do fine.
post #314 of 5345
Tom,

Do these really need re cal after 10 minutes or so? Have you ever tested one that had been on a (Plasma) for an extended period, recaled and re-checked to see what the difference is, etc?

thx

bob
post #315 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Here are after several hours of getting that perfectly, calibrated PQ that has all the results, lines and diagrams dead on, why do I feel a sense of dissatisfaction with the end results? Finally hit me last night in the shower! What are the bulk of us using when we calibrate? I bet the answer in most cases will be a laptop. And what kind of screen have we been watching during the whole calibration process? Why a Blue/White screen with Whiter Whites and Colour Popping pictures that's going to be more exciting then the end results we ended up on the big screen! Explains why I was happier when I calibrated my wife's set. I was on a desktop, 10 feet away, and despite the same type of screen it didn't hit me to as much degree.

If you are using an Eye-One meter, you can use it to calibrate all of your computer displays... even the laptop. The Eye-One software is simple to use and almost entirely automated. It is not perfect but will certainly look better than the standard monitor profile.
post #316 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post

If you are using an Eye-One meter, you can use it to calibrate all of your computer displays... even the laptop. The Eye-One software is simple to use and almost entirely automated. It is not perfect but will certainly look better than the standard monitor profile.

Currently using a Chroma5: I assume you see what I mean about the Blue/White Laptop screen? But, actually, how many people calibrate their laptop screens?
post #317 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Currently using a Chroma5: I assume you see what I mean about the Blue/White Laptop screen? But, actually, how many people calibrate their laptop screens?

I do, but primarily because I had the EyeOne (for calibrating my TV) and I discovered it was very easy to also calibrate monitors. Anyone who is serious about photography work will also calibrate their monitors.

And yes, the default monitor profiles are typically way too cold.
post #318 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Here are after several hours of getting that perfectly, calibrated PQ that has all the results, lines and diagrams dead on, why do I feel a sense of dissatisfaction with the end results? Finally hit me last night in the shower! What are the bulk of us using when we calibrate? I bet the answer in most cases will be a laptop. And what kind of screen have we been watching during the whole calibration process? Why a Blue/White screen with Whiter Whites and Colour Popping pictures that's going to be more exciting then the end results we ended up on the big screen! Explains why I was happier when I calibrated my wife's set. I was on a desktop, 10 feet away, and despite the same type of screen it didn't hit me to as much degree.

Pardon me, but I think a bigger factor is that you've also become used to the TV's picture as it was. Customer dissatisfaction with a calibrated picture is not unknown to pro calibrators, either. People buy the sets in stores because of their ultra-bright pictures and oversaturated colors and are surprised-and disappointed, in some cases-when proper calibration tones all of this down. Give it some time and then if you wrote down all the out-of-the-box settings, go back to them and see what you think.

BTW, my laptop and desktop monitors are calibrated, too.
post #319 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Currently using a Chroma5: I assume you see what I mean about the Blue/White Laptop screen? But, actually, how many people calibrate their laptop screens?

How many people calibrate their own TV's?

post #320 of 5345
Wow, I've just spent the evening with a friend who helped me load the ChromaPure SW onto my wife's Vista PC (I'm a Mac guy), and I can give a Novice's testimony that it is a DELIGHT to use! Congrats to Tom for a beautiful product, and thanks to him for taking the effort to bring it out. (And he has been enormously responsive in 'hand holding' me through my endless, probably trivial, questions!)

I've only been through the process once, using a Display LT (that I've had for over a year), and the result is outstanding. UMR (Jeff Meier) did a calibration of my RS20 almost a year ago, but I'm now on my second lamp, in fact already with a 1000 hrs on it! So the original calibration was quite out of date; even my first attempt has produced a more striking pic, more depth, and rich natural colors.

This weekend I'm looking forward to using an I1Pro (that I got with Calman a some while ago) to 'train' the Display LT, and then go through the process again. Great fun, and even better when it works!
post #321 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

This weekend I'm looking forward to using an I1Pro (that I got with Calman a some while ago) to 'train' the Display LT, and then go through the process again. Great fun, and even better when it works!

How do you train it? I wondered if you hired a pro ISF guy with a big bucks sensor and then followed w/ a DIY sensor ( like the LT or my DTP-94), could you calibrate through software the cheap sensor from the accurate expensive sensor's settings?

bob
post #322 of 5345
The ChromaPure site demos include one called creating meter offset.

I've done the offset procedure myself with ChromaPure with an i1Pro as reference and a DTP94 as the field meter. The catch is my i1Pro is about three years old so it might itself be off; I suppose I will send it in to X-Rite and pay $185 to have it checked and recalibrated. (I'm very curious about whether or not it has drifted much over time but don't know whether X-Rite will provide before and after readings for accuracy.) The DTP94 I have is about the same age and theoretically, its color filters have been more subject to age and humidity-caused drift from accuracy. It's readings did differ a bit from the i1Pro's.

So, you could apply an offset from a rented, calibrated spectroradiometer to your colorimeter, though it might be subject to more drift with time than a spectroradiometer. An important question here is whether or not more sophisticated colorimeters are less prone to drift with aging of their color filters and exposure to humidity, etc.
post #323 of 5345
Quote:


whether or not more sophisticated colorimeters are less prone to drift with aging of their color filters and exposure to humidity, etc.

most likely not.
post #324 of 5345
Question for any of you who having been using CP with a RS20 projector:

I've gotten everything to work like a charm (really love how the CMS works--able to tune the colors SPOT ON so simply!), EXCEPT the custom gamma. I run the gamma 'base line measurement' just fine [choosing the 2.3 gamma setting in the RS20 gives a gamma just below CP's 2.22 'target', and the 2.4 setting gives it just above 2.22], but the problem comes when I try to adjust the result using the RS20's pointwise adjustment system. If I choose the 90% IRE, for example, and click 'Continuous' measurement, and then in the RS20 make the most minor increase in gamma, the value jumps us by some enormous value, e.g., 10 or so, and graph shoots straight up.

Has anyone with an RS20 had this problem? Or have any of you had it work right? It seems like I must be doing something wrong, but I've looked at the 'demo' on the CP website many times, step by step, and am not sure where I'm screwing up. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
post #325 of 5345
OK, I'm getting frustrated wrt the gamma adjustment!

Has ANYONE had success adjusting gamma pointwise (as shown in the ChromaPure demo) with a RS20 projector? If so, please pm me, or something. I'm clearly not doing something correctly.
post #326 of 5345
Sorry if this has been answered before... my apologies in advance...

Tom, Have you planned automated calibrating (or anything similar to some point) for the Radiance series in a near future? I mean something as the CalMAN v4 claim will do...

Regards
post #327 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by aoshiken View Post

Sorry if this has been answered before... my apologies in advance...

Tom, Have you planned automated calibrating (or anything similar to some point) for the Radiance series in a near future? I mean something as the CalMAN v4 claim will do...

Yes. Stay tuned. . . .
post #328 of 5345
Tom, you can bet I will...

Just I hope that will be available for the domestic/home (or name it whatever you like) Chromapure edition, the CalMAN calibration feature for the Lumagen Radiance series is not supported in the Home Edition so you must spend 500$ for the Enthusiast Edition instead of 200$ for the Home one.
post #329 of 5345
Millerwill, when you say the "graph shoots straight up" do you mean at given stim point the level goes way up or down when you use the RS20s' gamma point adjustment? I only have a RS1 so I'm just guessing: the ChromaPure calculates a given target Y for a given %stim for a target gamma, but the RS20s' points are off from those anticipated Y for a given % stim. That'd give you what you're describing if I read you correctly.

Regarding the "auto-calibrate" possibility for ChromaPure, could that be forthcoming for users of other processors? I'd considered the upgrade to Enthusiast for CalMAN given they'll probably offer the interactive graphic calibration for VideoEQ Pro users (I being one) but I can calibrate using ChromaPure just fine. It was probably user error with CalMAN but I never got the relatively fast readings with my i1Pro and smooth graphic representation as I have with ChromaPure.

For me, the most effective upgrade for ChromaPure, which has been mentioned already, would be to have RGB balance bars showing for a given stim% in the same window or page as the gamma adjustment section.
post #330 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by drapp1952 View Post

Millerwill, when you say the "graph shoots straight up" do you mean at given stim point the level goes way up or down when you use the RS20s' gamma point adjustment? I only have a RS1 so I'm just guessing: the ChromaPure calculates a given target Y for a given %stim for a target gamma, but the RS20s' points are off from those anticipated Y for a given % stim. That'd give you what you're describing if I read you correctly.

Yes, what you describe is what I observe. But I'm afraid I don't follow what the correct procedure should be.
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