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post #3001 of 4440
10/8/12 at 5:02am
I am also new to Tom's auto-calibration software , most problems we have encountered being that we tried lazy not to read & learn carefully before starting and this forum provides us a good source of knowledge , I started off quickly and finished in a mess , dark image , shifted color etc. I understand that what said Auto is not actually everything auto , we will still need to learn how to start auto , I spent 3 nights searching through forums (Curt's & AVS) and equipped myself some starting knowledge and started again , yes , I made it , everything came out as expected , I got a good calibration . Maybe a better one will come to-morrow . I still have a few questions .

1. After calibration , if I "prefer" to have a more saturated color , from where in the menu (Mini) can I adjust the color saturation ? I do not want to make adjustment on the PJ as that will affect all memories from the Mini .
2. Increasing color saturation afterward may have a worse effect on calibrated results gamma , grey scale etc. , what can I do "before hand" to ensure that I can get a more saturated color after calibration ? By then , I do not have to make any adjustment afterward .
3. Any limitation on how long we can extend both the USB (to the meter) and serial cable (to the Mini) without affecting the calibrated results .

Thanks all in advance .

Larry
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post #3002 of 4440
10/8/12 at 7:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by breadvan View Post

Hi Chris and others,
I am interested to know about what causes such posterization on the X30 as I think I just might be having similar issue with mine.
I use the CMS on my using iScan Duo, before each autocal I would touch up contrast, brightness and grayscale on the X30, set gamma to usually 2.4 (works closets for me setup). Post-autocal report looks very respectable and image looks very good to my eyes, except in some movies some white content would turn very noticeably bluish, e.g., like edge of clouds and white of the eyes, very noticeable in movies like Hugo (BD), Mission: Impossible - Ghost Protocol (BD), Extremely Loud & Incredibly Close (DVD) and the big white black text on white HBO logo on series like Game of Thrones (BD).
The source has nothing to do with this since all my sources, connected to the Duo, exhibit the same issue, and this white turns bluish seems to be the only noticeable color issue.
Any suggestions to get rid of this rather annoying artifact is welcome.

The posterization on the X30 that I was discussing, and Tom has seen as well, is specifically related to adjusting the gamma presets beyond what the standards are. If you are only picking the 2.4 preset and then using the Duo for adjustments beyond that, it's a different issue that you are running into.
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post #3003 of 4440
10/8/12 at 2:00pm
What's the best way to determine the speed to set "auto advance" found within the signal generator module?
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post #3004 of 4440
10/8/12 at 2:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

What's the best way to determine the speed to set "auto advance" found within the signal generator module?

Hi Jim,

That should depend on the speed with lower luminance measures of your i1pro2 afaik
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post #3005 of 4440
10/8/12 at 3:16pm
Any reason to think that the newer JVC models would be a better starting colour gamut than the older models? (X30/RS45 verses X35/RS46).

Trying to decide between my options for use with a Mini3D and Chromapure autocal.
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post #3006 of 4440
10/8/12 at 9:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Ng View Post

1. After calibration , if I "prefer" to have a more saturated color , from where in the menu (Mini) can I adjust the color saturation ? I do not want to make adjustment on the PJ as that will affect all memories from the Mini .
2. Increasing color saturation afterward may have a worse effect on calibrated results gamma , grey scale etc. , what can I do "before hand" to ensure that I can get a more saturated color after calibration ? By then , I do not have to make any adjustment afterward .
3. Any limitation on how long we can extend both the USB (to the meter) and serial cable (to the Mini) without affecting the calibrated results .
1. The whole point of auto-calibration is to get the display's performance close to standards. If you have preferences that differ from those standards, then you'll have to make manual adjustments. If you are doing 125-point, this is impractical. If you are doing standard, then just remove equal amounts of R/G from B, R/B from G, G/B from R, and R from C, B from Y, and G from M.
2. Again, getting a "more saturated" result is inconsistent with the design of auto-cal. You'd be better off making manual adjustments. In any case, increased saturation by itself should have no effect on grayscale and only a small effect on gamma.
3. I wouldn't go more than 10ft.
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post #3007 of 4440
10/8/12 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

What's the best way to determine the speed to set "auto advance" found within the signal generator module?
You'll just have to experiment. Time a grayscale run at different speeds.
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post #3008 of 4440
10/8/12 at 9:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Any reason to think that the newer JVC models would be a better starting colour gamut than the older models? (X30/RS45 verses X35/RS46).
Trying to decide between my options for use with a Mini3D and Chromapure autocal.
No reason that I know of.
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post #3009 of 4440
10/8/12 at 10:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

The posterization on the X30 that I was discussing, and Tom has seen as well, is specifically related to adjusting the gamma presets beyond what the standards are. If you are only picking the 2.4 preset and then using the Duo for adjustments beyond that, it's a different issue that you are running into.

Thanks, any hint why such bluish content would appear? If I bypass CMS on the DUO it would go away.
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post #3010 of 4440
10/8/12 at 11:01pm
I am running into two things that confuse the heck out of me using 125 Point Calibration.

1 - Is that the max white is dialed back until the their is zero clipping all the way through the above white, for white, red, blue and green. This is not nearly 13 ft lamberts off my max white. Should we not be able to set the clipping level. . Perhaps clipping above 240-245 is okay... and a user might want not too sacrifice this light .This current limitation really knocks down the dynamic range of my 92" rear projector. I was thinking you might be able to choose the level of dE per saturation. So while I choose 1.7dE for 25,50 and 75% saturation I could loosen up to say 2.5 at 100 %?

2 - After Advanced Calibration, The greyscale is way off at 10 and 20% stimulus but is right on from 25% on up. Is is okay to manually adjust the greyscale below 25% or will that much up the rest of the 125 point calibration?
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post #3011 of 4440
10/8/12 at 11:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I am running into two things that confuse the heck out of me using 125 Point Calibration.
1 - Is that the max white is dialed back until the their is zero clipping all the way through the above white, for white, red, blue and green. This is not nearly 13 ft lamberts off my max white. Should we not be able to set the clipping level. . Perhaps clipping above 240-245 is okay... and a user might want not too sacrifice this light .This current limitation really knocks down the dynamic range of my 92" rear projector. I was thinking you might be able to choose the level of dE per saturation. So while I choose 1.7dE for 25,50 and 75% saturation I could loosen up to say 2.5 at 100 %?
2 - After Advanced Calibration, The greyscale is way off at 10 and 20% stimulus but is right on from 25% on up. Is is okay to manually adjust the greyscale below 25% or will that much up the rest of the 125 point calibration?
There is no essential reason that the calibration would substantially lower your light output. I have seen this happen, but first resetting the 125-gamut to default and only taking one pass seems to prevent this. If you want me to troubleshoot this, please send the data in the activity window to ChromaPure support. Making adjustments at the very low end of the grayscale should be fine.
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post #3012 of 4440
10/9/12 at 10:07am
Tom I think what he is saying that if you follow advice earlier in the thread and set the white level so that all WTW is visible then video white is going to be darker. I don't understand why this should be necessary or even advised. We should be able to set black level and contrast as per standards.
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post #3013 of 4440
10/9/12 at 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

You'll just have to experiment. Time a grayscale run at different speeds.

What should I be looking for?

Speed to completion or lower IREs in grayscale module being more in line with continuous reading in white balance module????
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post #3014 of 4440
10/9/12 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

What should I be looking for?
Speed to completion or lower IREs in grayscale module being more in line with continuous reading in white balance module????
I think that's your call. Personally I would be looking for repeatability. Too fast and you may get erronous readings. Too slow and you age too much during the Cal run.tongue.gif Gotta find the sweet spot. smile.gif
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post #3015 of 4440
10/9/12 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

There is no essential reason that the calibration would substantially lower your light output. I have seen this happen, but first resetting the 125-gamut to default and only taking one pass seems to prevent this. If you want me to troubleshoot this, please send the data in the activity window to ChromaPure support. Making adjustments at the very low end of the grayscale should be fine.

I will get with you through support when I figure how to get the activity. Each time I have run Advanced Cal always 1 pass. I have reset to factory defaults before eact attempt. The lumage is quite complicated compared tot he DUO and I am only starting to grasp the interface.

One positive, the meter stalling I was seeing with my D3 Pro with the DLP Rear Projection Mode is not happening at all now. This would happen with the DUO whether CMS was on or or off. The meter seems fast smooth and efficent. Of course I had not used V2.3 before I swapped in the Radience XS so maybe it has nothing to do with the VP, it shouldn't. No logical explanaton I can see. When you say copy the activity window I need to take a look. I did not know there was a scroll back buffer on AutoCalibration?
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post #3016 of 4440
10/9/12 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

Tom I think what he is saying that if you follow advice earlier in the thread and set the white level so that all WTW is visible then video white is going to be darker. I don't understand why this should be necessary or even advised. We should be able to set black level and contrast as per standards.

I reset the Lumagen, full factory reset. Then I set contrast to give say 112 to 120 cd/m² and have no visible white clipping all the way to the end in Spears and Munsil. There may be some color clipping but it is probably going flat in Red at 248 or so and it does not show up as a noticeable color shift in white at the end. White at 254 (109 percent stimulus) is not perfect but the dE is less than 2.0. White at 100 percent is balanced with dEat >.06.

At that point I let her rip. in a wide gamut mode and end up with something in the 65 -70 cd/m² range. Last nioght I set the lamp on bright and picked up about 10 percent or so extra light. The last run ended up at 79 cd/m² max white .

I can understand if a color wasn't reaching 100 saturation at 100 percent stimulus you would have to dial luminance back until it would but why go beyond that. It seems if the primaries can hit the gamut edge at 100 stimulus, there would be no reason pull any light output. I feel like the exact point where it would pull light should be user selectable.. I mean I don't really care if some color clips above 105 percent stimulus.The whole point is make the gamut correct in non linear displays. I understand it is not technically correct unless there is not clipping at all but hey if we had perfect displays we would not need Lumagens.

I know this part is really a Lumagen discussion. But why not have a user settable hard clip. I would just kill everything above 105 percent I would not pass it. If everything was linear below that who cares.
Edited by gtgray - 10/9/12 at 3:01pm
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post #3017 of 4440
10/9/12 at 3:04pm
gtgray,
Did you run the Color management module? If you use HSL and run this it would tell you if any saturations or luminances are low.
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post #3018 of 4440
10/9/12 at 4:16pm
Dear Tom, I have a (little?) feature request. It's possibile to choose the signal generator different from the calibration device for autocal? I would like the built-in for signal generator and the radiance as calibration device. In this way, the calibration of my source (htpc) would be 100% perfect, because would be independent from htpc settings.
Do you think this is possible?
Thanks.
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post #3019 of 4440
10/10/12 at 1:41am
Just a question about profiling.

The procedure is to;

1. Measure with the reference meter, disconnect.
2. Measure with the field meter
3. Click 'apply'.
4. save this session as a profile for the two meters.

The next time you measure the same display with the same meter, you simply load up this particular session file as a profile.

The question is, do you have to click 'apply' again or the settings are already 'applied' and saved onto the session file?

By pressing 'apply' again after loading this session file, will it have any adverse effect on the profiling?
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post #3020 of 4440
10/10/12 at 2:12am
I want to know what is the SIGNAL INTENSITY' s function? What change between 75 or 100?
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post #3021 of 4440
10/10/12 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

What should I be looking for?
Speed to completion or lower IREs in grayscale module being more in line with continuous reading in white balance module????
Speed is the only variable. Auto-Advance doesn't affect the readings themselves at all.
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post #3022 of 4440
10/10/12 at 11:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

Tom I think what he is saying that if you follow advice earlier in the thread and set the white level so that all WTW is visible then video white is going to be darker. I don't understand why this should be necessary or even advised. We should be able to set black level and contrast as per standards.
This is a somewhat controversial area, but it seems to me that the weight of opinion is that the WTW material should be visible. BTB should definitely be invisible.
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post #3023 of 4440
10/10/12 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I will get with you through support when I figure how to get the activity. Each time I have run Advanced Cal always 1 pass. I have reset to factory defaults before eact attempt. The lumage is quite complicated compared tot he DUO and I am only starting to grasp the interface.
One positive, the meter stalling I was seeing with my D3 Pro with the DLP Rear Projection Mode is not happening at all now. This would happen with the DUO whether CMS was on or or off. The meter seems fast smooth and efficent. Of course I had not used V2.3 before I swapped in the Radience XS so maybe it has nothing to do with the VP, it shouldn't. No logical explanaton I can see. When you say copy the activity window I need to take a look. I did not know there was a scroll back buffer on AutoCalibration?
All you have to do is click inside the activity window, and then scroll down to select all of the text. It's all there. Copy/paste to notepad or wordpad and send to me.
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post #3024 of 4440
10/10/12 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukpeta View Post

Dear Tom, I have a (little?) feature request. It's possibile to choose the signal generator different from the calibration device for autocal? I would like the built-in for signal generator and the radiance as calibration device. In this way, the calibration of my source (htpc) would be 100% perfect, because would be independent from htpc settings.
Do you think this is possible?
Thanks.
I have thought of this too. I'll look into it.
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post #3025 of 4440
10/10/12 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I reset the Lumagen, full factory reset. Then I set contrast to give say 112 to 120 cd/m² and have no visible white clipping all the way to the end in Spears and Munsil. There may be some color clipping but it is probably going flat in Red at 248 or so and it does not show up as a noticeable color shift in white at the end. White at 254 (109 percent stimulus) is not perfect but the dE is less than 2.0. White at 100 percent is balanced with dEat >.06.
At that point I let her rip. in a wide gamut mode and end up with something in the 65 -70 cd/m² range. Last nioght I set the lamp on bright and picked up about 10 percent or so extra light. The last run ended up at 79 cd/m² max white .
I can understand if a color wasn't reaching 100 saturation at 100 percent stimulus you would have to dial luminance back until it would but why go beyond that. It seems if the primaries can hit the gamut edge at 100 stimulus, there would be no reason pull any light output. I feel like the exact point where it would pull light should be user selectable.. I mean I don't really care if some color clips above 105 percent stimulus.The whole point is make the gamut correct in non linear displays. I understand it is not technically correct unless there is not clipping at all but hey if we had perfect displays we would not need Lumagens.
I know this part is really a Lumagen discussion. But why not have a user settable hard clip. I would just kill everything above 105 percent I would not pass it. If everything was linear below that who cares.
Relating the measured loss in light output with whether peak output is set to show WTW is not, I think, helpful. I don't think these have anything to do with one another. There is an issue with loss of light output after doing 125 point that is unrelated to this. It happens sometimes and doesn't happen other times, and we are trying to figure out what causes it. Whatever, it is, it has nothing to do with the initial peak output setting. The difference in light output between seeing above white and not seeing it would be small. As you have noted, this issue when it arises causes light output to fall by nearly half. This is caused by something else entirely, but we have yet to determine what it is. You can help us determine what is causing this by sending CP Support the text in the activity window.
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post #3026 of 4440
10/10/12 at 11:44am
From the description is sounds like the minimization algorithm has too many free variables, can you add a constraint that forces peak Y to not vary by more than say 5-10% ?
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post #3027 of 4440
10/10/12 at 12:59pm
I just posted an update to ChromaPure that I think might fix the lowered luminance problem for the 125 point calibration.

http://www.chromapure.com/distribute/standard/chromapure.zip

For those seeing the problem, please download, unzip, and install this.

Let me know if this fixes the problem. If it doesn't, then please copy/paste the text in the activity window and send me the data as a text file.

If this fixes it, you will all be amused by how tiny changes can have a large effect.
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post #3028 of 4440
10/10/12 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanelli73 View Post

I want to know what is the SIGNAL INTENSITY' s function? What change between 75 or 100?
The only function is to provide test patterns at different levels of luminance. Some displays will not do well at full luminance. That is why 75% is offered as an alternative.
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post #3029 of 4440
10/10/12 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The only function is to provide test patterns at different levels of luminance. Some displays will not do well at full luminance. That is why 75% is offered as an alternative.
Thanks Tom....and to a JVC RS45 is well 100 or 75?....and plasma PIONEER PDP 5000 EX 75 or 100?
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post #3030 of 4440
10/10/12 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I have thought of this too. I'll look into it.
This would be a tremendous feature for down the road. I have never really been happy with the results of a PC as a video source as I was using the DUO before and the PC needed a special separate calibration... to Auto-Calibrate the HTPC would be reallychange my view of how much to bother with HTPC.
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