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The Official ChromaPure thread - Page 111

post #3301 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Sorry my attempt to simplify things achieved the opposite..
I was merely trying to find out whether the following problem had been overcome by the use of a PRO.
The article and particularly the replies at the end were and still are disturbing to me:
http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/
You are asking me to comment on another product that we do not sell and I have not used. I just don't have anything intelligent to add to that discussion. I am not even sure what "problem" you are referring to, as the discussion ranges over several topics.
post #3302 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Sorry my attempt to simplify things achieved the opposite..
I was merely trying to find out whether the following problem had been overcome by the use of a PRO.
The article and particularly the replies at the end were and still are disturbing to me:
http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/


I don't understand the article. Do we always use "tables" when doing a basic cal, especially wit the D3?


bob
post #3303 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I answered that in my post above. 0.004-0.008. Yes, this is visible.

hello Tom,
I am a bit confused now. From your original post, I understood the absolute error of a D3 is 0.004 - 0.008.
But your answer to user PE06CMG says that this is the absolute error for a D3PRO.

Can you please confirm again: what is your estimate of the absolute error for a D3 , and for a D3PRO?
post #3304 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by turboman123 View Post

I am a bit confused now. From your original post, I understood the absolute error of a D3 is 0.004 - 0.008.
But your answer to user PE06CMG says that this is the absolute error for a D3PRO.
Can you please confirm again: what is your estimate of the absolute error for a D3 , and for a D3PRO?
The absolute error for a D3 PRO is theoretically zero, because it has been corrected. In practice it will be slightly more than that.
post #3305 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

I don't understand the article. Do we always use "tables" when doing a basic cal, especially wit the D3?
bob
There are basic calibrations provided by X-Rite at the factory and extra--presumably better and more specific--calibrations provided by partners.
post #3306 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The absolute error for a D3 PRO is theoretically zero, because it has been corrected. In practice it will be slightly more than that.
Hello Tom, thanks for your reply.
OK, so I understand now that the absolute error of a PRO is almost zero, and the absolute error for a standard D3 is 0.004 to 0.008.
Based on this I feel there is an unrealised potential which I would like to explain here. I also wrote a private email to you about that, but I think this subject could/should be of interest to other Chromapure/D3 users. That is why I would like to explain it in this forum.

My understanding is that the absolute error of a standard D3 is 0.004-0.008, so on average 0.006. For an individual meter, there is then a variation of -0.002 to +0.002 (approximately, based on your last data).
That means it should be possible to make a correction without making calibrations for the D3 standard, and the correction is based on the average errorof your PRO calibrations , build this in the program or license file, and obtain better calibration results

At the moment, you offer a D3 with standard factory correction, and this is fine for budget oriented users, or those who make their own corrections with a spectrometer.
And you offer a fully calibrated PRO meter for an optional price, which gives maximum accuracy for different panel types, short of calibrating with a spectro on a specific panel.

And the other option I would like to propose, is that you offer an option of a D3 with an average correction for each panel mode built in (so one average per panel type). Obviously the option price would have to reflect the calibration value gained, and the difference in time effort compared to a full calibration. Also obviously, there is no need to disclose what the average correction is, and the correction should be hidden in the program or license file. But in order that the user feels to get a real value, you would have to publish some statistical data of the benefit gained in dE.

OK, this was a long post. I also hope to invite some reactions form other users, with the aim of having an increased Chromapure/D3 benefit.
Edited by turboman123 - 11/13/12 at 2:32am
post #3307 of 5348
Upgrade to Windows 8 and now I am having problem with my USB-to-RS232 adaptor connecting to my DVDO iScan Duo..Arggghhh...time to get a new cable which will be compatible with Windows 8.
mad.gif
post #3308 of 5348
Hello dudes,

i'm a newbie and i have some questions about CMS.

I have a Samsung E8000 64 inches and i just bought a CP Bundle (CP Standard + i1 D3 Pro)

Here is my first calibration:





But i don't understand about amplitude/saturation, the color gamut chart looks right to me, but i think not.
I used the 75% patterns in my tests.

About grayscale, i'll optimize it adjusting the WB correctly, i changed the gamma TV during calibration, with this, i used 10p white to do not re-adjust WB, lol

Anybody can give me opinion/tips about this?

Sorry my poor english.

thanks dudes
post #3309 of 5348
Hi dude :P

From what I understand, the dE errors are what matters. In the calculation of these errors Luminance, Saturation and Hue are used in Chromapure. So, seeing that practicaly all of your color dE's are below 1, I would say it looks pretty good. As does your whitebalance.

But more importantly, how does your display look??
post #3310 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The absolute error for a D3 PRO is theoretically zero, because it has been corrected. In practice it will be slightly more than that.

That's great Tom and we appreciate you giving this service.

Hopefully I get my technical detail right and apologise for pressing the point but:

Because the D3 PRO is a Colorimeter and not a Spectro it uses LUT's that you prepare that are representative of its type (eg my LCD uses 'Generic LCD' as a type).

How does this accurate D3 PRO meter assess how closely my individual LCD conforms to your LUT's?

If this error is negligible or even non visible I am convinced and will immediately exchange my OEM D3 for a D3 PRO.

If not then my need to check it with an accurate Spectro still remains.

Please reassure me that my worries are ill conceived.

Incidentally just done a manual color gamut calibration using 75% saturation and 75% Luminance patterns via my Duo and pattern generation on the v 0.8.0 of 'Duo Control Panel' (PQ is great as well).

Fantastic results from dE point of view. Certainly better and easier to do than when using my usual AVS disc through an Oppo.
post #3311 of 5348
ChromaPure 2.3.2 Released

ChromaPure 2.3.2 is now available for download. The upgrade is free for licensed users.

The download link and Release Notes are available on the ChromaPure News page.

The main features are enhanced support for the DVDO Duo video processor, some bug fixes, and an enhanced plasma mode for Display 3/Display 3 PRO users.
post #3312 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

ChromaPure 2.3.2 Released
ChromaPure 2.3.2 is now available for download. The upgrade is free for licensed users.
The download link and Release Notes are available on the ChromaPure News page.
The main features are enhanced support for the DVDO Duo video processor, some bug fixes, and an enhanced plasma mode for Display 3/Display 3 PRO users.

Thanks Tom, You did it.

Now I can calibrate my Epson 3010 FPJ at 75% Saturation
post #3313 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

ChromaPure 2.3.2 Released
ChromaPure 2.3.2 is now available for download. The upgrade is free for licensed users.
The download link and Release Notes are available on the ChromaPure News page.
The main features are enhanced support for the DVDO Duo video processor, some bug fixes, and an enhanced plasma mode for Display 3/Display 3 PRO users.

Thanks Tom,

Will try it out tomorrow, the Duo has been a revelation to me.
post #3314 of 5348
Thanks Tom, I wasn't going to bother to upgrade then I saw the Lumagen fix regarding the 5% steps. Does this mean that the autocal I've already done doesn't store the 5% steps in the Lumagen, or just that I can't see them? If the former, then I'll re run autocal at some point, otherwise no need. In anycase it's good having all my 'ducks in a row' ready for when my X35 arrives. cool.gif
post #3315 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Thanks Tom, I wasn't going to bother to upgrade then I saw the Lumagen fix regarding the 5% steps. Does this mean that the autocal I've already done doesn't store the 5% steps in the Lumagen, or just that I can't see them? If the former, then I'll re run autocal at some point, otherwise no need. In anycase it's good having all my 'ducks in a row' ready for when my X35 arrives. cool.gif

Hi Kel,

Managed to do any before and afters yet with your Lumagen 3D 5x5x5 calibrations?
post #3316 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

Hi dude :P
From what I understand, the dE errors are what matters. In the calculation of these errors Luminance, Saturation and Hue are used in Chromapure. So, seeing that practicaly all of your color dE's are below 1, I would say it looks pretty good. As does your whitebalance.
But more importantly, how does your display look??

Hi Wouter,

thanks for answer, so, i like my tv image, but i don't know if it is correct (saturation correct). My dE's seem good, the gamma curve seem good too, but i'm beginner/amateur.
I'm searching my errors. The image display is very good to me, but i want a image calibrated correctly, unfortunately i don't have comparison parameters.

I'll continue searching knowledge. smile.gif
post #3317 of 5348
BTW, if it isn't obvious, let me point out that if you want to check the amplitudes in ACM, you must select 100% Intensity. Otherwise, the amplitudes will use the lower intensity white as a reference and it screws up the dE calculations. For saturations, you can use any of the intensities.
post #3318 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Thanks Tom, I wasn't going to bother to upgrade then I saw the Lumagen fix regarding the 5% steps. Does this mean that the autocal I've already done doesn't store the 5% steps in the Lumagen, or just that I can't see them? If the former, then I'll re run autocal at some point, otherwise no need. In anycase it's good having all my 'ducks in a row' ready for when my X35 arrives. cool.gif
It stores 5% values, but it is unclear to me if the values stored previously were interpolated. I actually think it makes little difference, but we wanted to get this right in any case.
post #3319 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeitaroSan View Post

Hello dudes,
i'm a newbie and i have some questions about CMS.
I have a Samsung E8000 64 inches and i just bought a CP Bundle (CP Standard + i1 D3 Pro)
Here is my first calibration:
But i don't understand about amplitude/saturation, the color gamut chart looks right to me, but i think not.
I used the 75% patterns in my tests.
About grayscale, i'll optimize it adjusting the WB correctly, i changed the gamma TV during calibration, with this, i used 10p white to do not re-adjust WB, lol
Anybody can give me opinion/tips about this?
Sorry my poor english.
thanks dudes
Keitaro-san, sumimasen, Nihon-jin desuka?
Are you using the internal patterns?
Looks good. For some improvements:
- use the new release 2.3.2 from Tom. That should be better for the ACM advanced color management.
- you show the ACM results for 100% amplitude. But general recommendation is to adjust CM for 75% amplitude.
Myself, I have a 55ES8000 and I use the CM module with internal patterns to calibrate for 75%saturation/75%amplitude, and separately for 100%saturation/75%amplitude. Then I use the average of those settings on the ES8000 and run an ACM with 75% amplitude.
post #3320 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Because the D3 PRO is a Colorimeter and not a Spectro it uses LUT's that you prepare that are representative of its type (eg my LCD uses 'Generic LCD' as a type).
How does this accurate D3 PRO meter assess how closely my individual LCD conforms to your LUT's?
If this error is negligible or even non visible I am convinced and will immediately exchange my OEM D3 for a D3 PRO.
If not then my need to check it with an accurate Spectro still remains.
Please reassure me that my worries are ill conceived.
The D3 PRO does not use an LUT. CP corrects its response using a color correction matrix that is the industry standard. See http://www.jeti.com/cms/index.php/other-applications/tristimulus-instrument
I cannot provide any specific information about your Toshiba LCD, as I have not measured it. I would expect that the LCD_Generic mode would remove the great majority of the error, but I can't be any more specific than that.
The only way to "check it with an accurate Spectro" is to get access to a 5nm device. These are quite expensive. The i1Pro--and certainly ColorMunki--won't help.
post #3321 of 5348
The only way offset matrices can work accurately is for them to be made on the specific display to be calibrated.
This is the only way it can work accurately.
Doing 'generic' offsets is no better than the pre-sets included in the probe.

This means the offset has to be held in the calibration software, not the probe.
We do see improvements to the i1 Dsiplay Pro when calibrated to a i1 Pro 2, but obviously even better results when matched to a Jeti/PR.

See this info page: http://www.lightillusion.com/probe_use.html for a bit more info.

Steve
post #3322 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

The only way offset matrices can work accurately is for them to be made on the specific display to be calibrated.
This is the only way it can work accurately.
Doing 'generic' offsets is no better than the pre-sets included in the probe.
This means the offset has to be held in the calibration software, not the probe.
We do see improvements to the i1 Dsiplay Pro when calibrated to a i1 Pro 2, but obviously even better results when matched to a Jeti/PR.
See this info page: http://www.lightillusion.com/probe_use.html for a bit more info.
Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks for reply.

I know the OEM D3 is a good meter with sufficient accuracy to measure even invisible dE values.

Both you and Tom seem to say it varies according to the Panel so it boils down to checking my individual panel with a Spectro.

Even the cost of an i1Display 2 Basic Spectro is a high price to pay for this Panel checkup, let alone the Jeti.

Tom has found visible errors can occur with the OEM D3 at manufacturing stage so perhaps any Panel errors will cancel this potential error out or maybe the errors add up to an even bigger error.

Bearing in mind I am uninterested in any non visible accuracy (I am an amateur not a Professional Calibrator), is the ColorMunki Photo counterproductive in checking out my Panel, in fact useless for this purpose?
post #3323 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Has anyone else tried out their i1Display3 pro with ChromaPure release 2.3.2 ?
Using white balance module, in continuous, my readings are jumping around.
Also tried grayscale and readings are a good bit different than my i1pro2.
This is only with the i1D3pro. I1pro2 doesn't exhibit this behavior.

I have as well. Notified Tom of it last night, had the poor guy up at 1:30AM doing tests. He wasn't able to reproduce it at that time. Are you using plasma mode?

I would contact him so he can ascertain what we have in common that causes this issue.
Edited by Greg1981 - 11/14/12 at 8:11am
post #3324 of 5348
Tom,
Used autocal with CP Pro and D3Pro to calibrate an LG 55LH90 LCD, LED with local dimming.

Autocal let me select pattern size (fields vs windows) but the selection of saturation and luminance was greyed out.

This is contrary to your post and release notes. Hence Saturation and Luminance selection not available.
The calibration results are good.

100 %sat.pdf 578k .pdf file
Edited by catmother - 11/14/12 at 9:28am
post #3325 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Has anyone else tried out their i1Display3 pro with ChromaPure release 2.3.2 ?
Using white balance module, in continuous, my readings are jumping around.
Also tried grayscale and readings are a good bit different than my i1pro2.
This is only with the i1D3pro. I1pro2 doesn't exhibit this behavior.

Hello Jimp, i tried, but the new CP version is very unstable for me. I tried measure my grayscale, but above 50% stimulus, the numbers are crazy.
On white balance module, the numbers are ok on low light, but not on high light.

I tried measure colors too, but the meter is slowly now frown.gif, before update was faster.
The color patterns is in high light.

How can i download CP 2.3.1?
post #3326 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

Tom,
Used autocal with CP Pro and D3Pro to calibrate an LG 55LH90 LCD, LED with local dimming.
Autocal let me select pattern size (fields vs windows) but the selection of saturation and luminance was greyed out.
This is contrary to your post and release notes. Hence Saturation and Luminance selection not available.
The calibration results are good.
100 %sat.pdf 578k .pdf file
What "saturation and luminance" selections are you referring to? The only place that these selections are available is in Advanced Color Management, and there is nothing grayed out there. The Duo's ability to put out test patterns of multiple saturations and intensities has nothing to do with auto-cal. If you are referring to Advanced Auto-Cal, this is a Lumagen-only feature. The Duo supports test patterns of all types now, but it does not support calibration within the color space. That would require a major firmware update for the Duo.
post #3327 of 5348
There is obviously something wrong with our implementation of the plasma burst mode. It may take a day or two to sort this out. In the meantime, those using Display 3 meters, just use the Standard mode. Those using the Display 3 PRO meters, notify ChromaPure Support and we will send you a license file in which the plasma corrections are applied to one of the other modes you are not using.

When the problem is fixed, we will post a new build and everyone can go back to using the Plasma mode.
post #3328 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

What "saturation and luminance" selections are you referring to? The only place that these selections are available is in Advanced Color Management, and there is nothing grayed out there. The Duo's ability to put out test patterns of multiple saturations and intensities has nothing to do with auto-cal. If you are referring to Advanced Auto-Cal, this is a Lumagen-only feature. The Duo supports test patterns of all types now, but it does not support calibration within the color space. That would require a major firmware update for the Duo.

My apologies, false alarm, here is where I became confused.
On the options page, select generator, the Duo selection page shows 4 selections windows:

Select Pattern type (fields, windows)
Select signal intensity (100, 75)
and 2 windows, select color format and select resolution, these grayed out..

I (mistakenly) believed that those selection options would carry over to other CP modules including autocal.

As the saying goes : Now you know the rest of the story.
post #3329 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

BTW, if it isn't obvious, let me point out that if you want to check the amplitudes in ACM, you must select 100% Intensity. Otherwise, the amplitudes will use the lower intensity white as a reference and it screws up the dE calculations. For saturations, you can use any of the intensities.
Thanks Tom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turboman123 View Post

Keitaro-san, sumimasen, Nihon-jin desuka?
Are you using the internal patterns?
Looks good. For some improvements:
- use the new release 2.3.2 from Tom. That should be better for the ACM advanced color management.
- you show the ACM results for 100% amplitude. But general recommendation is to adjust CM for 75% amplitude.
Myself, I have a 55ES8000 and I use the CM module with internal patterns to calibrate for 75%saturation/75%amplitude, and separately for 100%saturation/75%amplitude. Then I use the average of those settings on the ES8000 and run an ACM with 75% amplitude.

Hello Turbo, thanks for answer.
I'm using AVS HD 709 patterns, i select 100% colors and adjust color space, i tried 75% colors too. The 75% have a better result than 100%.

What the correct patterns to adjust CMS? My TV have adjust controls to primaries (RGB) and secondaries (YCM) colors.

I'm doing adjusts following this steps:
1) select color decoding in CP
2) select 100% colors patterns
3) adjust TV color measuring 100% red pattern (rule: red with 21% from luma white 100%)
4) select color management in CP
5) select RGB on combo mode
6) adjust color space on TV using 100% color patterns
7) adjust each color to the bars disappear (0% or near)

The steps above is right or wrong?

thanks
post #3330 of 5348
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

My apologies, false alarm, here is where I became confused.
On the options page, select generator, the Duo selection page shows 4 selections windows:
Select Pattern type (fields, windows)
Select signal intensity (100, 75)
and 2 windows, select color format and select resolution, these grayed out..
I (mistakenly) believed that those selection options would carry over to other CP modules including autocal.
As the saying goes : Now you know the rest of the story.
You select the color format (YCbCr or RGB) and resolution in the Duo itself. The test pattern selectors (size and intensity) do carry over into auto-cal. You can use windows or fields and 75% or 100% color test patterns.
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