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The Official ChromaPure thread - Page 171

post #5101 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post


There has been a green skin tone issue with ST60's, have you noticed or measured significant errors in saturation or luminance with an ST60? I know that it's suggested that this tv be calibrated with 75%A/75%S patterns which leaves 100% oversaturated.
I am aware of the controversy surrounding this issue, though I have not seen it myself. If real, it should show up in a skin tone ColorChecker.

Using 75% A is a good idea in any case. Has anyone done a full LUT calibration on one of these--125 or 729 point?
post #5102 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I am aware of the controversy surrounding this issue, though I have not seen it myself. If real, it should show up in a skin tone ColorChecker.

Using 75% A is a good idea in any case. Has anyone done a full LUT calibration on one of these--125 or 729 point?

That was my suggestion from the start, but I don't think anybody has done a full LUT on the ST60.,

btw, thanks for helping me with the folks at Jeti. They seem happy with me and I am happy with the 1211 they made for me. smile.gif

ss
post #5103 of 5355
Tom,

When using a reference meter for the sole purpose of profiling the field meter, doesn't the reference meter need to be included in the license?
post #5104 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Tom,

When using a reference meter for the sole purpose of profiling the field meter, doesn't the reference meter need to be included in the license?
That would, of course, be the easiest. However, it is not strictly required. You can manually type the xy values into the Reference Meter fields of the Meter Correction module and this will work fine. Of course, you must have some way to get readings from the reference meter outside of CP if you have no CP license for the device.
post #5105 of 5355

hello:

 

New to this forum and have read some great info.

 

I am a big plasma person and own multiple sets.  I really want to do my own calibration on my new set once it breaks in and I want to move on from the typical THX Optimizer and WoW disc, etc. I did some very preliminary homework with the DIY meters and equipment, but want to find out from others on here what they recommend. I simply do not want to drop $500+ dollars and have buyers remorse, etc. my budget is ~$500, so I'm willing to pony up if I have too to get long term use out of it.

To that end, I'm open to any and all recommendations on proper equipment setup for DIY calibration.

Thanks so much in advance.............

post #5106 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by tegee26 View Post

hello:

New to this forum and have read some great info.

I am a big plasma person and own multiple sets.  I really want to do my own calibration on my new set once it breaks in and I want to move on from the typical THX Optimizer and WoW disc, etc. I did some very preliminary homework with the DIY meters and equipment, but want to find out from others on here what they recommend. I simply do not want to drop $500+ dollars and have buyers remorse, etc. my budget is ~$500, so I'm willing to pony up if I have too to get long term use out of it.


To that end, I'm open to any and all recommendations on proper equipment setup for DIY calibration.


Thanks so much in advance.............


http://chromapure.com/products-d3pro.asp

Display 3 PRO (OEM) w/ChromaPure Standard software and includes free ChromaPure video calibration disc - $595 and worth every penny. smile.gif
post #5107 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post


http://chromapure.com/products-d3pro.asp

Display 3 PRO (OEM) w/ChromaPure Standard software and includes free ChromaPure video calibration disc - $595 and worth every penny. smile.gif

 

 

Thank you Buzz......

 

It is just as good and/or better than this:  http://store.spectracal.com/calman-5-enthusiast-with-spectracal-c6.html

 

Just want to make sure I am spending my $$$ correctly and can learn their software, etc.

 

Thanks so much again.

post #5108 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by tegee26 View Post


Thank you Buzz......

It is just as good and/or better than this:  http://store.spectracal.com/calman-5-enthusiast-with-spectracal-c6.html

Just want to make sure I am spending my $$$ correctly and can learn their software, etc.

Thanks so much again.
I cannot recommend Buzz high enough. He will lead you in the right direction. He did this for me.
Thanks again Buzz
Glen
post #5109 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by tegee26 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

http://chromapure.com/products-d3pro.asp


Display 3 PRO (OEM) w/ChromaPure Standard software and includes free ChromaPure video calibration disc - $595 and worth every penny. smile.gif


Thank you Buzz......

It is just as good and/or better than this:  http://store.spectracal.com/calman-5-enthusiast-with-spectracal-c6.html

Just want to make sure I am spending my $$$ correctly and can learn their software, etc.

Thanks so much again.

First of all, I am somewhat biased as ChromaPure and a Chroma 5 colorimeter is the combination I started with. Both packages offer everything needed to calibrate your displays so no matter which one you choose you'll have adequate tools. I have both programs but my goto is ChromaPure because I find it faster and more convenient. CalMAN has more options but for someone new to calibration they can be confusing and in my opinion, unnecessary.
post #5110 of 5355
Also note that the "Chroma 6" probe from CalMan is the same probe (X-Rite Display 3) that the linked Chromapure package includes. Th difference is the name and a decal.
post #5111 of 5355

Thank you so much......I think I will make the purchase of the ChromaPure package.

post #5112 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by tegee26 View Post

Thank you so much......I think I will make the purchase of the ChromaPure package.
While your waiting for your stuff. Go to the Chromapure website and watch some of the Demo material. This will give you a introduction to how the software operates. It won't make you a expert but it will get your mind right for using the software as far as setting up workflows, meter intialization, and General Tutoring on How to get started. . Also go to Michael Chen's website and watch some of the Free tutorial Video's. You can then decide if you want to purchase the entire training video series.
I purchased the entire training series and it accelerated my learning curve ten fold. It will not make you a expert either, but it will cut off months of frustration.

It's kinda like, I now own a space ship if I just knew how to fly it.

Just a Couple of Tips.
Edited by Glenee - 2/21/14 at 4:59am
post #5113 of 5355

Ok great.  I did read about Michael Chen's videos, so I will have to do a search to find them.

 

I am trying to weight the cost of all this equipment and sundries, learning all the proper techniques, etc vs. having Chad or Kevin come in to professional calibrate my new arrival the F8500.

 

It does appear very overwhelming, but I believe the longterm invest may be worth it so I can calibrate for years to come.  Plus I have (4) plasmas and (3) LCD's between my two locations, so that is another reason why I am leaning towards buying & learning calibration.

 

All GREAT info.....thx so much

post #5114 of 5355
http://www.tlvexp.ca/education-videos-for-clients/ The free training Videos are under Articles
http://www.chromapure.com/demos.asp

There you go.
Edited by Glenee - 2/21/14 at 7:18am
post #5115 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by turboman123 View Post

Hello Tom,
In order to understand this and see the effect, I selected gamma max, neutral and minimum on my Samsung LED, and measured saturations. Results depended on the gamma selected. Of course, max and min gamma setting is out of the normal for this panel, but I just wanted to understand the effect.

If I would prefer a BT1886 gamma and do a manual calibration with a calibration disc, which would you recommend of the following 4 methods:
A: Do all the calibrations with gamma 2.22 with more than one pass, and as a last step change gamma to BT1886 without touching greyscale or CMS anymore.
B: Same as above but as a last step change gamma with greyscale adjustment but without CMS adjustment.
C: Do all the calibrations including BT1886, again more than one pass. I understand then this would lead to some error in the saturation measurements or CMS settings if I base CMS settings on saturations below 100%.
D: Or stick to gamma 2.22 for everything and leave it at that.
(If the preferred method depends on the panel, I have a Samsung F8000)

hello Tom,
See my earlier question. Any recommendation on this?
post #5116 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by tegee26 View Post

Thank you so much......I think I will make the purchase of the ChromaPure package.
Make sure you check curtpalme.com as sometimes they offer better prices for the same packages...
post #5117 of 5355
When to use an LUT Calibration

I was interested in testing how much added advantage one receives by running a 729-point color calibration on the Lumagen vs. the 125-point. It's an important question. The 125-point is more widely available and it takes only a few minutes to run--8 minutes using a D3 and 5 minutes using a K-10. By way of comparison it takes 44 minutes/28 minutes to run a full 729-point calibration. I ended up testing something else entirely.

I decided to run the test my my 9th generation Pioneer Kuro PDP 5020FD plasma because I knew from past tests that it had problems with color accuracy inside the color space. First I took some baseline readings.

Standard Mode



As you can see, this is terrible performance. The only reason I tested it is that this is the default mode the display is in when delivered. You should almost always change the default Picture mode when you first get a new display.

Movie Mode



Clearly, this is much better. It still needs calibration, but the simple act of changing the Picture mode made a huge improvement.

Movie Mode, Standard Calibration



This is what really surprised me. Obviously, the grayscale is now excellent. However, although the color performance at the gamut boundary is now nearly perfect, the overall color performance is actually WORSE than it was before it was calibrated. How is this possible?







Clearly, what has happened is that correcting the color points on the gamut boundary had the effect of also wreaking havoc on the color inside the gamut.

This obviously called for a LUT calibration. I ran a two-pass 125-point correction using the Lumagen 2021. With the Klein K-10 this only took about 10 minutes. The results were excellent.







The improvements made by the 125-point LUT calibration were huge. Later this evening I will run a 729-point LUT calibration and see if the added time is justified by improved results. However, there is not a lot of residual error left, but I'll reserve judgment until I see the results.

There are few lessons to be learned from this.

1. The single most important step you can take to improve your image quality is select the correct Picture mode. If you don't do that, then nothing else much matters.

2. A standard 6-point CMS correction may not be doing any good. You simply cannot tell if a standard CMS color correction has had the intended result unless you look inside the color space as well as looking at the gamut boundary.

3. Whether a 6-point CMS correction is sufficient or not depends entirely on the display. On this Pioneer, it created more error than it removed. However, on other displays, it may very well be all you need. It just depends on how the color performance of the display has been engineered. For example, a Panasonic VT50 I worked on last summer showed excellent results with just a standard calibration. The fact that this was a 2013 display and the Pioneer is a 2009 display may mean that manufacturers are just getting better at this.

The bottom line is that you should always check your color with the Advanced Color Management module and/or the ColorChecker module after a standard calibration. Depending on your display, you may be better off simply leaving the display's color in its default state. Although a grayscale/gamma correction is always a good idea, a CMS correction may not be. If you have a Lumagen you may need to run a 125/729-point LUT calibration.

BTW, I can't recommend the Lumagen 20xx processors enough. I don't know if it is the Darbee processing or simply due to some other enhancement to the processing engine, the 20xx improves image quality beyond what you would except from the sophisticated color correction. The image has a clarity and pop to it that I immediately noticed.

Follow-up Post
Edited by TomHuffman - 2/27/14 at 9:12pm
post #5118 of 5355
Yet you still have certain folks on here that will tell you that you need a LUT box for a VT50...rolleyes.gif

thanks for the data Tom.
post #5119 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Yet you still have certain folks on here that will tell you that you need a LUT box for a VT50...rolleyes.gif

thanks for the data Tom.
I know. I think what is going on is that some folks had an experience similar to the one I describe above, and then they generalize and assume that it applies for all displays. It doesn't. Because I work in the industry, I get a chance to measure and calibrate a lot of displays and there is a wide variety of performance among them requiring a customized approach to each. Running a LUT certainly won't hurt and it may offer some other advantages, such as the ability to re-purpose the LUT to support a different gamut or gamma. But purely from a performance standpoint it just isn't always necessary. But sometimes it is.
post #5120 of 5355
Understood. People unfairly try and move arguments in a direction that every display needs one, when many of us try and say "not all of them need one". Somehow it gets misconstrued that they aren't worth the money, but it all comes down to what display you actually own. As you have stated.

Lord knows Ive wasted plenty of $$$ on unnecessary gear for my particular setup.

I like the lumagen 2021, but having a vt50 and oppo 103D, its hard for me to justify $2200. Someone else though may better benefit by it.
post #5121 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

When to use an LUT Calibration

2. A standard 6-point CMS correction may not be doing any good. You simply cannot tell if a standard CMS color correction has had the intended result unless you look inside the color space as well as looking at the gamut boundary.

3. Whether a 6-point CMS correction is sufficient or not depends entirely on the display. On this Pioneer, it created more error than it removed.

In my experience the JVC CMS is like your Pioneer Plasma.....fixing the outer points degrades saturation tracking making things worse. The 125pt Lumagen cal avoids this issue and works well.

You know more than I but I'd been told the Sony 600/1000/1100 CMS works great with no outside help (Lumagen) required.
post #5122 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

In my experience the JVC CMS is like your Pioneer Plasma.....fixing the outer points degrades saturation tracking making things worse. The 125pt Lumagen cal avoids this issue and works well.

You know more than I but I'd been told the Sony 600/1000/1100 CMS works great with no outside help (Lumagen) required.
I can't speak to the 600, but I can verify that this is the case for the 1000 and it doesn't even have a CMS. Just put it into the right Picture preset, calibrate the grayscale, and the color is nearly perfect without any further adjustment. I think it is one of the reasons--beyond the 4K resolution--why this projector looks so great. It throws the best image I have ever seen.
post #5123 of 5355
A couple of questions...

How were the color points on the 5020 corrected at the gamut boundary? Was the 5020 upgraded with an elite board as I don't believe a stock 5020 has a CMS?

What do you think the color performance would be if the 5020 (if it has a CMS) were calibrated (sans LUT) at 75% saturation instead of 100%?
post #5124 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbonacci View Post

A couple of questions...

How were the color points on the 5020 corrected at the gamut boundary? Was the 5020 upgraded with an elite board as I don't believe a stock 5020 has a CMS?

What do you think the color performance would be if the 5020 (if it has a CMS) were calibrated (sans LUT) at 75% saturation instead of 100%?
I just used the Lumagen's own controls. No. The CMS in the Elites is worse than useless. Don't use them. It will actually degrade the image.

I don't know. I could try that.
post #5125 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I can't speak to the 600, but I can verify that this is the case for the 1000 and it doesn't even have a CMS. Just put it into the right Picture preset, calibrate the grayscale, and the color is nearly perfect without any further adjustment. I think it is one of the reasons--beyond the 4K resolution--why this projector looks so great. It throws the best image I have ever seen.

Tom, So are you really saying that for a Sony1000 (soon to be 1100 with the upgrade) the 125pt CMS autocal with a LumagenMini doesn't give any better a result than simply omitting the Radiance and using the Reference preset? Is there ANY feature for which the Radiance improves things, e.g. with the BT 1886 gamma, etc.?
post #5126 of 5355
Would the Eecolor Box improve upon the Radiance Results?
post #5127 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Tom, So are you really saying that for a Sony1000 (soon to be 1100 with the upgrade) the 125pt CMS autocal with a LumagenMini doesn't give any better a result than simply omitting the Radiance and using the Reference preset? Is there ANY feature for which the Radiance improves things, e.g. with the BT 1886 gamma, etc.?
No. In my experience the Sony simply does not require color calibration. Of course, it does need grayscale/gamma calibration, and that's where the Lumagen can be very useful. Mark Haflich also swears by the Lumagen's scaling of 720p sources to 1080P, which he says is superior to the Sony's internal scaling.
post #5128 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Would the Eecolor Box improve upon the Radiance Results?
I actually don't think that this is the right question. More to the point, the question is "Is there enough residual error to make meaningful improvement even possible?"

You can no doubt get smaller color errors with larger numbers of points. I did a preliminary test of 729 points using the Lumagen and I did get even better results, but the differences were very, very small and it takes six times longer to run a 729-point LUT than it takes to run a 125-point LUT. Is the ever increasingly small amount of error reduction worth the exponential increase in time required to achieve it? For me, no, though others may feel differently about this.
post #5129 of 5355
I guess it also depends on how good/bad the display linearity is. If its behaviour is somewhat linear, probably a smaller number of LUT points is good enough to achieve good results. If the display behaves very non-linear, more LUT points might be needed.
post #5130 of 5355
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I guess it also depends on how good/bad the display linearity is. If its behaviour is somewhat linear, probably a smaller number of LUT points is good enough to achieve good results. If the display behaves very non-linear, more LUT points might be needed.

That as well as placement of test points will affect the final results. Graeme has an article about the subject available here.
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