AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP › Epson 8500UB 200,000:1 CR
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Epson 8500UB 200,000:1 CR - Page 46

post #1351 of 3620
12/22/09 at 8:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

- Black Levels on mixed content are lacking. This is where I probably notice the largest difference between the Sharps. When half the screen is super bright and half the scene is dark ... the blacks are better on the Sharps.

Hi Ed, it hard to believe and hear you say that this projector is lacking in black level. All the reviews I read said that the black levels were superb and from the screen shots I seen the black levels look fantastic. I think that you might have a problem with your home theater setup and/or your high power screen is making the image to bright which takes away from the black level. I am not sure by having your projector 23' from the screen helps either or maybe your screen is just to big or all of the above. I just can't agree with you that the black levels are lacking. I think the black level are excellent.

I would like to quote rprice's post when he states the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rprice54 View Post

the colors/pop was impressive. Blacks- another wow. Even in that setting, I could barely see the black bars on top and bottom.

No offense but I think that we need to look at the environment that we put these projectors in and keep in mind the type of screen and screen size, the throw distance, the color of the walls and ceiling, the video source and anything else you can think of that will affect a picture.
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #1352 of 3620
12/22/09 at 8:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neverfaithful View Post

Hi Ed, it hard to believe and hear you say that this projector is lacking in black level. All the reviews I read said that the black levels were superb and from the screen shots I seen the black levels look fantastic. I think that you might have a problem with your home theater setup and/or your high power screen is making the image to bright which takes away from the black level. I am not sure by having your projector 23' from the screen helps either or maybe your screen is just to big or all of the above. I just can't agree with you that the black levels are lacking. I think the black level are excellent.

neverfaithful,
Honestly, no offense intended, but I think you need to go see some higher end projectors with your own eyes to gain some perspective. Screen shots are absolutely worthless in determining black level performance (and not very useful for anything else either). A partial exception is if you are locking down your camera settings and shooting the exact same scene with two different projectors with the exact same lumen level and hitting the same screen. This is what Art attempts to do at projectorreviews.com. It is the only way to get any sort of meaningful comparison. Standalone screen shots from a single projector without comparisons are totally worthless. I could take my 10 year old 500:1 contrast projector and make it look every bit as BLACK as a 8500 screenshot if I use the right camera settings.

My old Sharp 20k has a significantly higher native contrast rating than the 8500 but lacks the dynamic iris. Even my old Sharp 12k mkII has a higher native contrast than the 8500. I think the dynamic iris is very beneficial in low light scenes, but it still doesn't blow away the 20k. That is not saying that the black level performance isn't good ... I'm just saying that with my COMPARISONS, its just ok. I also noted that the higher brightness obviously has a big effect on black level.

If I were to compare it to my Pioneer Kuro KRP-500m, the black levels and contrast on the Epson are not even remotely close. That isn't very useful considering its a completely different beast and only 50".

I'm not trying to rain on the parade, and I noted a lot of positives as well. I plan on keeping this projector because I think the positives outweigh the negatives and I think this thing is a great value.

One last thing ... having the projector further from the screen actually INCREASES contrast levels and REDUCES brightness, therefore creating better black levels.
Reply
Reply
post #1353 of 3620
12/22/09 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

neverfaithful,
Honestly, no offense intended, but I think you need to go see some higher end projectors with your own eyes to gain some perspective. Screen shots are absolutely worthless in determining black level performance (and not very useful for anything else either). A partial exception is if you are locking down your camera settings and shooting the exact same scene with two different projectors with the exact same lumen level and hitting the same screen. This is what Art attempts to do at projectorreviews.com. It is the only way to get any sort of meaningful comparison. Standalone screen shots from a single projector without comparisons are totally worthless. I could take my 10 year old 500:1 contrast projector and make it look every bit as BLACK as a 8500 screenshot if I use the right camera settings.

My old Sharp 20k has a significantly higher native contrast rating than the 8500 but lacks the dynamic iris. Even my old Sharp 12k mkII has a higher native contrast than the 8500. I think the dynamic iris is very beneficial in low light scenes, but it still doesn't blow away the 20k. That is not saying that the black level performance isn't good ... I'm just saying that with my COMPARISONS, its just ok. I also noted that the higher brightness obviously has a big effect on black level.

If I were to compare it to my Pioneer Kuro KRP-500m, the black levels and contrast on the Epson are not even remotely close. That isn't very useful considering its a completely different beast and only 50".

I'm not trying to rain on the parade, and I noted a lot of positives as well. I plan on keeping this projector because I think the positives outweigh the negatives and I think this thing is a great value.

One last thing ... having the projector further from the screen actually INCREASES contrast levels and REDUCES brightness, therefore creating better black levels.

Umm excuse me but this is not a "high end" projector.
Reply
Reply
post #1354 of 3620
12/22/09 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neverfaithful View Post

Umm excuse me but this is not a "high end" projector.

I apologize for comparing with my own experiences and projectors I have in the same viewing environment. I will make sure to only make generic claims based on specs, other reviews and screenshots in the future.

FYI, used Sharp 20ks are going for around $3k. Sharp 12k mkIIs go for around $1000 or less now.
Reply
Reply
post #1355 of 3620
12/22/09 at 8:53am
for those of you looking at boxes to reduce noise- I was actually concerned that by putting it in a box, I would create a chamber to resonate and increase noise- like a drum...

just curious...
Reply
Reply
post #1356 of 3620
12/22/09 at 8:56am
I built an enclosure for mine and it really helped reduce the noise and did not create any new resonances that I am aware of.

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/1933...-08-pm-1-7-meg
LL
LL
Reply
Reply
post #1357 of 3620
12/22/09 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorhifi View Post

I built an enclosure for mine and it really helped reduce the noise and did not create any new resonances that I am aware of.

That looks awesome
Reply
Reply
post #1358 of 3620
12/22/09 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

I apologize for comparing with my own experiences and projectors I have in the same viewing environment. I will make sure to only make generic claims based on specs, other reviews and screenshots in the future.

FYI, used Sharp 20ks are going for around $3k. Sharp 12k mkIIs go for around $1000 or less now.

You don't compare a high end projector with a entry level or mid-range projector. It is like comparing a Lexus and a Hyundai.
Reply
Reply
post #1359 of 3620
12/22/09 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorhifi View Post

I built an enclosure for mine and it really helped reduce the noise and did not create any new resonances that I am aware of.

Now that is nice!
Reply
Reply
post #1360 of 3620
12/22/09 at 9:11am
doctorhifi,
Any chance you can post some pictures of your cabinent as it was being built? I might try building something similar to that.
Thanks
Reply
Reply
post #1361 of 3620
12/22/09 at 9:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispy View Post

Hi gadgetfreaky,

Mine seems to come and go too, and it seems to happen on the first cold powerup of the day. When it happened to me, turning it off and on during an hour-long testing session had no effect, but it did go away when I came back to it several hours later.

Do you have a way to display bit-perfect 1920x1080 test images on your projector, through an HTPC or PS3, or USB slot on your DVD player? If so, try displaying the black-to-red pattern here:

http://www.planetb.net/~chrispy/8500ub/test_images/

I turned my projector on just now and it had the sparklies on the main PS3 menu. When I pulled up the black-to-red pattern, the graduated bars were randomly (and slightly) shifting in their intensity level. So, these are not actually sparklies at all, but rather something in the image-processing circuitry which is is introducing random shifts in value. It causes the visible edges between the bars to "hop" or "jitter" left in right. It doesn't happen entirely across the image, only between certain bars or groups of bars. We only see this effect as "sparklies" on normal program matter because only certain pixels in the picture have an intensity value which gets affected by this problem.

Normally I would say a cold-start issue is temperature-related, but normally this type of cold-start issue goes away as the chips on the board self-heat themselves up to operating temperature. In this case, the bulb inside the projector would warm things up too.

- Chris

I'll try this later tonight, heading out to work. I don't wish this bug on anyone, but i'm glad it's someone like you who knows how to diagnose technically. I can imagine that this is "intermittent" problem is going to be a nightmare to explain to Epson. If we get to the exact detail it'll help everyone.

BTW, on "convergence" it's my first time really measuring it. When running the test pattern from the epson via the remote, what am I looking for? pure white lines? and from the menu text? It seems like it's 2 white lines of dots and a lighter pink to the right. Does that mean i have a "red push"? Basically to the right of all the lines 1 pixel worth of pink up close.
Reply
Reply
post #1362 of 3620
12/22/09 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

I haven't fully callibrated yet, but I've been switching back and forth between Projectorreview's THX settings and Another Dad's THX settings (Thanks!).

Can you share the THX settings? Can we all start sharing the "calibrated" settings on this board? There's so much fine adjustment that I don't know where to begin. One thing i'm trying to figure out is on HD footbal on DirecTV how do I tame the whites? The white is so bright it hurts my eyes, basicaly white crush and I can't seem to turn it down.

thanks
Reply
Reply
post #1363 of 3620
12/22/09 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobygt68 View Post

doctorhifi,
Any chance you can post some pictures of your cabinent as it was being built? I might try building something similar to that.
Thanks

You know, it didn't occur to me to photo document the project but I did lay it out in Visio before I built so if you want to PM me I will be happy to provide what I have in either Visio or PDF format.
Reply
Reply
post #1364 of 3620
12/22/09 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neverfaithful View Post

You don't compare real-life experience with noob level expertise or screen shots and speculation. It is like comparing a Lexus and a Hyundai.



edpowers evaluation is spot on. He's adding relativity and perspective to the performance of the 8500. That's very valuable information to have, especially seeing as how you can get a 20K for around 3-4K. You'd be wise to appreciate someone's hands on, and literal experiences. The insight and information edpowers brings is becoming rare on these forums. Sad really.



A few have mentioned build quality. Has anyone had any hands on experiences with the Panasonic 4000 and the Epson 8500? How do they compare in build quality?
Reply
Reply
post #1365 of 3620
12/22/09 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post

Can you share the THX settings? Can we all start sharing the "calibrated" settings on this board? There's so much fine adjustment that I don't know where to begin. One thing i'm trying to figure out is on HD footbal on DirecTV how do I tame the whites? The white is so bright it hurts my eyes, basicaly white crush and I can't seem to turn it down.

thanks

Another Dad's settings are in post 1145

Art's review settings can be found here:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...alibration.php

Which HD channels are you watching football on? Monday Night Football on ESPN is notoriously bad quality with a lot of compression. It makes larger screens look very washed out. My local NBC Sunday Night Football and CBS Sunday NFL are usually better.
Reply
Reply
post #1366 of 3620
12/22/09 at 9:56am
Well, I received my 8500UB from AVS last Wednesday. I paid extra to have it QC'd. The good news is that convergence was excellent, as was black level on rolling credits and mostly dark scenes. That's where the good news ends from my point of view.

I had asked repeatedly on these forums about pixel structure on 1080p PJs, because my only experience is with LCoS, and Panasonic "smoothscreen". I was assured that would be no problem within 1 screen width. However, in my case, it is a problem because I can see the pixels on my 9' wide screen from 12' away. Although the black level is good, shadow detail is much better on my AE2000. Material that looked great on the AE2000 looked bad on the 8500UB. I just sat there in shock and disbelief, that a PJ that was supposed "blow away" what I had looked worse (at my viewing distance).

I tried every color mode and tweaked, and tweaked, to no avail. Honestly, even if I could have gotten shadow detail improved, the SDE was a deal breaker for me. It's on it's way back to AVS, and I ordered an AE4000.

I guess it was worth 200.00 (non-refundable QC, and shipping) to know that even a 40K SIM2 wouldn't look good to me from where I sit. My only apparent upgrade path would appear to be JVC LCoS - but even that I would have see in person before buying.

I'm glad that most are very happy with Epson, but it just isn't the right one for me.

Some people really bash smoothscreen, but for those that sit close it makes the viewing experience much better.

(BTW, the customer service and support from AVS is top-notch. It isn't their fault I was disappointed.)

Art
Reply
Reply
post #1367 of 3620
12/22/09 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by adpayne View Post

I had asked repeatedly on these forums about pixel structure on 1080p PJs, because my only experience is with LCoS, and Panasonic "smoothscreen". I was assured that would be no problem within 1 screen width. However, in my case, it is a problem because I can see the pixels on my 9' wide screen from 12' away. Although the black level is good, shadow detail is much better on my AE2000. Material that looked great on the AE2000 looked bad on the 8500UB. I just sat there in shock and disbelief, that a PJ that was supposed "blow away" what I had looked worse (at my viewing distance).

Art

I felt the same way about my 6500UB after selling my Sony Ruby. I sit 10.6' from a 106" and when I first fired up the 6500UB I was mortified with the SDE I was seeing. It was obvious and very obnoxious.

Well, after almost 6 months with the 6500UB I can tell you that the SDE has completely gone away. I know it's still there but my eyes have gotten so used to it that I don't see it anymore no matter how hard I try to find it. I thought the SDE had really vanished but after spending a few days with my friends DLP projector and going back to the 6500UB I again saw the SDE but this time it was gone in a matter of hours.

I think your eyes really adapt to the difference between LCOS (or DLP) vs. LCD after you give it a little time.
Reply
Reply
post #1368 of 3620
12/22/09 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by adpayne View Post

However, in my case, it is a problem because I can see the pixels on my 9' wide screen from 12' away. Although the black level is good, shadow detail is much better on my AE2000. Material that looked great on the AE2000 looked bad on the 8500UB. I just sat there in shock and disbelief, that a PJ that was supposed "blow away" what I had looked worse (at my viewing distance).

Too bad you sent it back without getting feedback from this forum first. If shadow detail was bad, perhaps you had mismatched video levels. It's easy to do. It's the whole PC/Video/Enhanced thing.

Also, unless you have better than 20/20 vision I think something was wrong with the setup if you saw pixel structure anywhere near that distance. Do you know what your visual acuity is? Just curious.
Reply
Reply
post #1369 of 3620
12/22/09 at 10:20am
I have 20/20 vision and moved from a DLP to the LCD and I do not see any SDE unless I am standing close to the screen.
I have a 110" Stewart Firehawk screen and view from about 13' away.
I concur with your observations about shadow detail but I have yet to calibrate so I expect that it will improve post adjustments.
Reply
Reply
post #1370 of 3620
12/22/09 at 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

Also, unless you have better than 20/20 vision I think something was wrong with the setup if you saw pixel structure anywhere near that distance. Do you know what your visual acuity is? Just curious.

I don't know if this is the case here, but I think some people report the distance at which they can make out the individual pixels or make out each black line between the pixels, while others report where they can see a digital look from the pixels. For example, I couldn't pick out the individual lines between the pixels on a Planar 8150 from even close to 1.1x viewing ratio, but on white images I could see a kind of SDE with that projector if I focused it sharply enough. It was clear that there was a grid structure in the images if looking at a section even though I didn't feel like I could point out one individual black line between the pixels and say that I could see that. If focused sharply it took a little further away for this SDE effect to go away for me on the white sections. BTW: This was with a Da-Lite High Power screen at least. I probably also tried it with my Carada Classic Cinema White, but I'm not positive about that.

--Darin
Reply
Reply
post #1371 of 3620
12/22/09 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream1 View Post



edpowers evaluation is spot on. He's adding relativity and perspective to the performance of the 8500. That's very valuable information to have, especially seeing as how you can get a 20K for around 3-4K. You'd be wise to appreciate someone's hands on, and literal experiences. The insight and information edpowers brings is becoming rare on these forums. Sad really.

No, in my opinion they are way off and do not add anything. His comment on the 8500UB is not spot on. The black level on the 8500 does not lack. I think his home theater is lacking something. Like I said you can't compare a 3-4K projector with a 2K projector. That make not sense. Again, you can't compare a Lexus with a Hyundai.

See, this is why I do not like to post my opinion on this thread because you always has some immature person sitting home and comment something childish in return.
Reply
Reply
post #1372 of 3620
12/22/09 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

Another Dad's settings are in post 1145

Art's review settings can be found here:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...alibration.php

Which HD channels are you watching football on? Monday Night Football on ESPN is notoriously bad quality with a lot of compression. It makes larger screens look very washed out. My local NBC Sunday Night Football and CBS Sunday NFL are usually better.

Thanks for the settings. i'll try it tonight.
I was watching football on Fox, and on the sunday night NBC broadcast in HD. The whites were just blown. Snow on the sidelines was just a white mess as well. It just seemed too bright. Colors looked great though.
Reply
Reply
post #1373 of 3620
12/22/09 at 11:04am
I first thought I was seeing SDE as well - on the ice surface while watching hockey. However, turns out I'm seeing the texture of the screen itself. A knowledgeable friend of mine simply took a white sheet of paper and held it up against the screen. Lo and behold, SDE was gone!

To be fair, it's either the texture of the screen, or dirt & dust on the screen. I need to clean it. I pinged my reseller for some advice on what to use. Open to suggestions if anyone here has info. Distilled water only seems to spread it around.

I have a Da-Lite Cinema Vision screen.

Cheers,
Mario
Reply
Reply
post #1374 of 3620
12/22/09 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by daiglem View Post

I first thought I was seeing SDE as well - on the ice surface while watching hockey. However, turns out I'm seeing the texture of the screen itself. A knowledgeable friend of mine simply took a white sheet of paper and held it up against the screen. Lo and behold, SDE was gone!

You could also defocus the projector and see what happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daiglem View Post

To be fair, it's either the texture of the screen, or dirt & dust on the screen. I need to clean it. I pinged my reseller for some advice on what to use. Open to suggestions if anyone here has info. Distilled water only seems to spread it around.

I have a Da-Lite Cinema Vision screen.

From my memory of that surface it is probably the texture of the screen.

--Darin
Reply
Reply
post #1375 of 3620
12/22/09 at 11:24am
I've played with the focus, to no avail.

So you recall that screen material having a notable texture then? I appreciate the info - thx! Guess (in time) I will be looking at changing the screen material.
Reply
Reply
post #1376 of 3620
12/22/09 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neverfaithful View Post

No, in my opinion they are way off and do not add anything. His comment on the 8500UB is not spot on. The black level on the 8500 does not lack. I think his home theater is lacking something. Like I said you can't compare a 3-4K projector with a 2K projector. That make not sense. Again, you can't compare a Lexus with a Hyundai.

See, this is why I do not like to post my opinion on this thread because you always has some immature person sitting home and comment something childish in return.

Wow. Those are some strong statements from a guy who has never owned a projector. I don't think you realize that your own comments come off as childish. Why would you comment on something that you have not experienced hands on? Have you even seen a 8500 UB in person? And if you did, would you have any basis for comparisons? This is the third home theater I've built and my 6th projector. But I'd never make the grand statements that you have made. I am by no means an expert, nor do I claim to be.
Reply
Reply
post #1377 of 3620
12/22/09 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

I apologize for comparing with my own experiences and projectors I have in the same viewing environment. I will make sure to only make generic claims based on specs, other reviews and screenshots in the future.

FYI, used Sharp 20ks are going for around $3k. Sharp 12k mkIIs go for around $1000 or less now.

Nice review/comparison, never mind the noise.
Reply
Reply
post #1378 of 3620
12/22/09 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispy View Post

You described what I'm seeing to a T.

- Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post

Well I got my 8500 from ABCWarehouse, my first projector after lurking on this forum. Everything was awesome yesterday after 2 movies and a football game. Which btw, this things is bright! Perfect for my white room and lots of windows..

But Today, I have the same issues as Chris! I thought I was crazy, but it's the exact same problem. All the faces have a slight moire effect, both from my Samsung Bluray player and my DirecTV HD box display it.

It looks like it's all caused by the vertical dancing red lines. they don't seem to have a consistent pattern, but they are about 1/2 inch apart and red vertical lines. Sometimes just 1 inch tall, sometimes 5 inches tal. Each line is maybe 1/8th inch thick.

Shows up clearly on red backgrounds, and less so on pure white. Crazy thing is that it was not there yesterday. It's really really noticeable and yesterday it was perfect. Today it's not very watchable.

I see the exact same thing too. It has been perfect for a week. This morning I get up and it doesn't look good at all. The picture looks like there is posterization, especially when in motion. It looks like the red is trailing the picture a touch. I hope mine goes away like others report. Ack!
Reply
Reply
post #1379 of 3620
12/22/09 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

Wow. Those are some strong statements from a guy who has never owned a projector. I don't think you realize that your own comments come off as childish. Why would you comment on something that you have not experienced hands on? Have you even seen a 8500 UB in person? And if you did, would you have any basis for comparisons? This is the third home theater I've built and my 6th projector. But I'd never make the grand statements that you have made. I am by no means an expert, nor do I claim to be.

Yes, I have seen 8500UB in person and the black levels do not lack. From what I have seen and heard the black level is very good for a projector in this price range. Like I said check your screen and its gain, the color of your walls and ceiling and the all around environment. However, I am done. I can't deal with people who can't take criticism. All I said from the beginning was that I disagree that the black levels lack and I quoted rprice who said that the black level is excellent (as well as others). That is why I said check your theater and its environment. I am just tried of people posting the bad things about this projector and not the good things. If you want perfect, go spend 5-10K on a projector you don't have to make complaints about. You get what you pay for.
Reply
Reply
post #1380 of 3620
12/22/09 at 12:27pm
I found I had to tweak the contrast and brightness to get decent shadow detail. I don't think there is a significant deficit in shadow detail. I know the reviews show dark pictures vs the ae4000 and while the 4000 has the advantage...it's not dramatic!

I also played with the "normal" vs "expanded" hdmi source. The expanded setting shows more shadow detail but seems to skew the brightness/contrast. I played with both settings and when tweaked...they seem to equal out but it means lowering the settings while in expanded.

I have been saving different calibration settings....so many options to play with. Overall, I find I like the "theater black1" the best. I seem to be able to get a little more saturated colors from it. Perhaps it's not totally on spec as much as THX but I like it a little more. I will continue to tweak though. I drive my wife crazy... While watching something, I'm continually upping or lowering the FI rate or Super-resolution settings etc.

Do most people keep the Iris on normal or high speed?
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP › Epson 8500UB 200,000:1 CR