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Warning for Denon owners: your xx09/x89 AVR may have a major bug - Page 9

post #241 of 545
10/29/09 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

+1, and this certainly could be the reason why quite a few members (including yourself) have complained of excessive hiss with "Muliti EQ" enabled on the 1909/789.

I no longer own my 789 since I upgraded to the 989, but for the life of me, I think my 789 exhibited this bug (minus the excessive hiss).

Any news on this? This is one of the reasons I don't use Dynamic EQ anymore. Because my room isn't very big, and the surround speakers aren't that far away from me, I can easily hear the hiss when DynEQ is enabled.
Will the firmware update fix this? Oh well, I probably have to send it away anyway.

Denon official support do not help Swedes apparently, so I have to talk to my local dealer. Damnit, often harder to explain the technical problems to a salesman (no offense to anyone).
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post #242 of 545
10/29/09 at 8:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaucous View Post

Any news on this? This is one of the reasons I don't use Dynamic EQ anymore. Because my room isn't very big, and the surround speakers aren't that far away from me, I can easily hear the hiss when DynEQ is enabled.
Will the firmware update fix this? Oh well, I probably have to send it away anyway.

Denon official support do not help Swedes apparently, so I have to talk to my local dealer. Damnit, often harder to explain the technical problems to a salesman (no offense to anyone).

Do you hear hiss with digital or analog inputs or both ?
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post #243 of 545
10/29/09 at 8:30am
Digital, don't know about the analog.
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post #244 of 545
10/29/09 at 8:39am
You could just lower the rear levels or re-run the test with just one test in your main listening spot.
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post #245 of 545
10/29/09 at 8:41am
How would this help me? If I lower the rear I will obviously have lower sound when viewing movies, I don't want that, the volume is good. However, the hissing noise is annoying.
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post #246 of 545
10/29/09 at 8:42am
Ok, back on point...

Been away from the AVS Audio Section for awhile and was shocked to see my Denon Audyssey implementation suspicions confirmed! I actually had an early 1909 from J&R last year and sent in back to them for the very same reason and a slightly noticable degradation of the HDMI Video PQ. Also, I seem to remember the Channel Trims were set pretty high too compared to my 988 and 889 (more on that in a moment). I'm glad to see that through the hard work of Dr. Pepper and others here, this anamoly has been sorted out. Good job gang!!

Now, with respect to my 889, here are my unit's numbers:

Main Ver: 00.72
Sub Ver: 00.25
DSP1 Ver: 45.37
A PLD: A2990009
V PLD: A2940002

Since I have an early FW Version, I intend to send my unit in for the "fix." No need to confirm through subjective audio testing; if it's an early FW, gimme the latest one. However, while my 889 performed better than the 1909 with Audy engaged (including Dyn EQ), I still knew something was amiss but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. That is to say that the sound quality was slightly clearer, but the bass (SW) and two front speakers (or so it appeared) often drowned out the Center Channel even when I increased the channel trim. Hmmm... Now since I had an Onkyo 605, 606 and Denon 988, I did some comparing. I compared the Onkyo 606 and the Denon 889 with Audy Dyn EQ engaged and found that while the 889 offered better, more crisp and detailed sound quality, the surround sound on the 606 with Dyn EQ was more balanced and seamless, leading me to suspect that something was either not right with Denon's implementation, or the difference between the Absolute Values formula of the Denon (due to Dyn Volume) v. the Relative Value formula (Onkyo 606 as it did not have Dyn Vol.) relating to Reference Level output. Or, it was simply more hype than substance. Anyway, I just remember watching movies and feeling totally enveloped by the surrounds at lower volumes, while the front sound stage was seamless. By the way, even without any empirical evidence at this time, I DO believe that Tru HD and DTS MA are affected in the same manner as its lossy counterparts.

Anyway, just thought I'd share my experiences and will report back after I get the FW upgrade. There's a Denon Super Service Center in Chicago so I'll see if I can drop it off and have it upgraded while I wait.

Oh, I'll have a 3808CI in the near future so stay tuned for a comparo after the Holidays...
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post #247 of 545
10/29/09 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaucous View Post

How would this help me? If I lower the rear I will obviously have lower sound when viewing movies, I don't want that, the volume is good. However, the hissing noise is annoying.

If you have a real problem with your denon, I can't fix it, I can maybe help you live with it.
Try re-running the test with just ONE test point in your listening area
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post #248 of 545
10/29/09 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ab2ab View Post

Ok, back on point...

Been away from the AVS Audio Section for awhile and was shocked to see my Denon Audyssey implementation suspicions confirmed! I actually had an early 1909 from J&R last year and sent in back to them for the very same reason and a slightly noticable degradation of the HDMI Video PQ. Also, I seem to remember the Channel Trims were set pretty high too compared to my 988 and 889 (more on that in a moment). I'm glad to see that through the hard work of Dr. Pepper and others here, this anamoly has been sorted out. Good job gang!!

Now, with respect to my 889, here are my unit's numbers:

Main Ver: 00.72
Sub Ver: 00.25
DSP1 Ver: 45.37
A PLD: A2990009
V PLD: A2940002

Since I have an early FW Version, I intend to send my unit in for the "fix." No need to confirm through subjective audio testing; if it's an early FW, gimme the latest one. However, while my 889 performed better than the 1909 with Audy engaged (including Dyn EQ), I still knew something was amiss but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. That is to say that the sound quality was slightly clearer, but the bass (SW) and two front speakers (or so it appeared) often drowned out the Center Channel even when I increased the channel trim. Hmmm... Now since I had an Onkyo 605, 606 and Denon 988, I did some comparing. I compared the Onkyo 606 and the Denon 889 with Audy Dyn EQ engaged and found that while the 889 offered better, more crisp and detailed sound quality, the surround sound on the 606 with Dyn EQ was more balanced and seamless, leading me to suspect that something was either not right with Denon's implementation, or the difference between the Absolute Values formula of the Denon (due to Dyn Volume) v. the Relative Value formula (Onkyo 606 as it did not have Dyn Vol.) relating to Reference Level output. Or, it was simply more hype than substance. Anyway, I just remember watching movies and feeling totally enveloped by the surrounds at lower volumes, while the front sound stage was seamless. By the way, even without any empirical evidence at this time, I DO believe that Tru HD and DTS MA are affected in the same manner as its lossy counterparts.

Anyway, just thought I'd share my experiences and will report back after I get the FW upgrade. There's a Denon Super Service Center in Chicago so I'll see if I can drop it off and have it upgraded while I wait.

Oh, I'll have a 3808CI in the near future so stay tuned for a comparo after the Holidays...

All your really saying to the average joes is that the onkyo will sound better than denon, cause the average joe wouldn't know that the denon there listening to is a factory dud.
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post #249 of 545
10/29/09 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by googlegod View Post

If you have a real problem with your denon, I can't fix it, I can maybe help you live with it.
Try re-running the test with just ONE test point in your listening area

Okay. What exactly am I doing by just using one test point? Just curious what the difference is - regarding the hissing.
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post #250 of 545
10/29/09 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaucous View Post

Okay. What exactly am I doing by just using one test point? Just curious what the difference is - regarding the hissing.

If you test just one point at were you seat, the sound is EQed just for that sweet spot. If you run muliti test points all around the room it only will weaken the sweet spot by the averages.
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post #251 of 545
10/29/09 at 10:03am
not only is that not true (the multiple measurements points are NOT about "averaging" the results for multiple listeners!), but what the heck does that have to do with the hiss he is hearing?
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post #252 of 545
10/29/09 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

not only is that not true (the multiple measurements points are NOT about "averaging" the results for multiple listeners!), but what the heck does that have to do with the hiss he is hearing?

The hiss could be from dead spots in the room, so the eq could be pushing /bumping up the high end of the freq range to the point of hiss is heard. This is just an idea not a known fact.
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post #253 of 545
10/29/09 at 10:25am
Doubt that it will work. My other five measurements are about 30-40 centimeters away from the hotspot.
I actually had the same problem with my Onkyo TX-SR606, the hissing.
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post #254 of 545
10/29/09 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaucous View Post

Doubt that it will work. My other five measurements are about 30-40 centimeters away from the hotspot.
I actually had the same problem with my Onkyo TX-SR606, the hissing.

Your speakers may have hot tweeters, they just hiss with any input.
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post #255 of 545
10/29/09 at 11:32am
Which is enhanced by DynEQ?
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post #256 of 545
10/29/09 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaucous View Post

Which is enhanced by DynEQ?

Sure. Why not? One thing Dyn EQ does is turn up the surrounds a bit. That'd do it, potentially. It also turns up treble when volume is decreased, since like low bass, our ears become less sensitive to treble at lower SPLs.
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post #257 of 545
10/29/09 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaucous View Post

Which is enhanced by DynEQ?

Yes, hot tweeters peak in the hiss range, so its like 10x normal. Piezoelectric speakers are known for this, but piezoelectric speakers are not the only type that can have that characteristic sound / bug.
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post #258 of 545
10/29/09 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by googlegod View Post

Yes, hot tweeters peak in the hiss range, so its like 10x normal. Piezoelectric speakers are known for this, but piezoelectric speakers are not the only type that can have that characteristic sound / bug.

Are you using the Audyssey curve or the Flat curve? The Flat curve would give you +3dB more in the high frequencies than the Audyssey curve.
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post #259 of 545
10/29/09 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaucous View Post

Any news on this? This is one of the reasons I don't use Dynamic EQ anymore. Because my room isn't very big, and the surround speakers aren't that far away from me, I can easily hear the hiss when DynEQ is enabled.
Will the firmware update fix this? Oh well, I probably have to send it away anyway.

Denon official support do not help Swedes apparently, so I have to talk to my local dealer. Damnit, often harder to explain the technical problems to a salesman (no offense to anyone).

Can you get the firmware updated in Sweden? Or can you send it to some other country where it can be performed?

Over the past year quite a few owners of the 1909/789 complained of hiss coming from their speakers. The issue has never been resolved as to why this was, as far as I know. Some returned the units for different brands that did not have dynamic EQ because of the problem. When Denon was contacted about the issue they always stated that it should not be happening, and the unit should be sent in for repair. I don't recall whether anyone sent it in for the specific hissing issue or not. I think they either dealt with it, like you have, or got another brand of AVR.

If I was you, I would send your unit in for the firmware upgrade and see if the hissing goes away. You really have nothing to lose, plus it would go a long way in determining for yourself and others with the hissing issue if indeed this bug might be causing it with certain setups/speakers. I always asked myself why some owners heard this excessive hiss in their setups, and differant speaker designs was one thing that I thought might be causing it.

You are the perfect candidate for determining if this bug is causing your hissing issue. If you get the new firmware installed and the hissing goes away your all set. If it doesn't, at least you'll have the latest firmware, and you can look at other avenues as to why you are hearing it.
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post #260 of 545
10/29/09 at 4:56pm
I'm using the normal Audyssey Curve.

tingham: Yeah, guess I could do it for the greater good. As you said, I have nothing to loose by doing this. And now that I've noticed how nice it is to finally be able to view DVDs with Dynamic EQ without the extreme bass (because I'm using LPCM instead of bitstream), I really want that firmware.

I can probably get it updated, but then it would be by contacting the seller, which is listed on Denon's website on "distributors". Hopefully I'll be able to explain the situation to my local store, which sometimes might be a little difficult if they're not that into the technical information.

About the hissing, the problem might be that I'm too sensitive, or some other problem. The volume of the hissing might be normal. However, the part that Audyssey DynEQ enhances the hissing is at least subjective.
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post #261 of 545
10/30/09 at 9:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaucous View Post

I'm using the normal Audyssey Curve.

tingham: Yeah, guess I could do it for the greater good. As you said, I have nothing to loose by doing this. And now that I've noticed how nice it is to finally be able to view DVDs with Dynamic EQ without the extreme bass (because I'm using LPCM instead of bitstream), I really want that firmware.

I can probably get it updated, but then it would be by contacting the seller, which is listed on Denon's website on "distributors". Hopefully I'll be able to explain the situation to my local store, which sometimes might be a little difficult if they're not that into the technical information.

About the hissing, the problem might be that I'm too sensitive, or some other problem. The volume of the hissing might be normal. However, the part that Audyssey DynEQ enhances the hissing is at least subjective.

How you feel about this problem makes me laugh out loud (lol) I see it 180 around. The hiss would drive me crazy and is a sigh of very cheap hardware, the powerful bass is a sigh of a strong system which you can turn down to your tasts. I'm sorry to hear that you need to go that extra mile to get it fixed, but be warned that some who posted earlier in this thread had there denon serviced and was no better than before.
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post #262 of 545
10/30/09 at 9:18am
I simply don't believe I can fix the problem with the hissing. I had the exact same problem with my Onkyo. Maybe I could fix it by buying new speakers, since my surroundspeakers are quite old. And the bass problem can be fixed by just running LPCM.
Quite used to the hissing by now, and it's not THAT loud.

But I do believe the bassproblem probably can be fixed at least, by the firmware update.

Edit: But to be honest, my main thing that is holding me back is the fact that I will be without my awesome receiver for a couple of weeks.
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post #263 of 545
10/30/09 at 10:07am
The bitstream problem is what this thread is about. When using MultEQ and bitstream lossy audio (AC3/DTS).
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post #264 of 545
10/30/09 at 10:32am
As for the hiss you could just disconnect the tweeters in the rears or add a 10, 20 or higher ohm 10 watt resistor inline only to the tweeter, this may help.
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post #265 of 545
10/30/09 at 10:32am
I have no 'hiss' from my rear channels using my 789. Is this another FW issue?
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post #266 of 545
10/30/09 at 10:35am
No the hiss is probably something else, since I had it on both of my receivers.
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post #267 of 545
11/1/09 at 5:59am
Help…I’ve read all the forum pages and re-read page 1 and must still confess my ignorance. I’ve always had way too much bass on my lossy dvd’s. Here are the values I got on my 1909 but I don’t know what they mean. Purchased Aug, 2008 from 6th Avenue Electronics.

AVR1909 e3
S/N.
Main ver 00.59
Sub ver 00.23
dsp1 ver 45.37
a pld: a2990009
v pld: a2940002

1. Which numbers are important; what do they mean AND Is this firmware old enough to have the bug?

2. Also, if Denon issues an SRA, do you have to ship by UPS or can you pick your carrier?

3. I live close to Tucson AZ and is there a way to find out if there are factory authorized service centers in AZ that can do an firmware fix?


Thanks to any response.
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post #268 of 545
11/1/09 at 6:29am
1. Your Main Ver is below 0.90 so yes you do need the update.
2. You can use whichever carrier you prefer as you are paying the shipping.
3. Use this link to determine the closest repair center and whether it has the firmware update for the 1909.
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post #269 of 545
11/1/09 at 6:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tocaje View Post

HelpI've read all the forum pages and re-read page 1 and must still confess my ignorance. I've always had way too much bass on my lossy dvd's. Here are the values I got on my 1909 but I don't know what they mean. Purchased Aug, 2008 from 6th Avenue Electronics.

AVR1909 e3
S/N.
Main ver 00.59
Sub ver 00.23
dsp1 ver 45.37
a pld: a2990009
v pld: a2940002

1. Which numbers are important; what do they mean AND Is this firmware old enough to have the bug?

2. Also, if Denon issues an SRA, do you have to ship by UPS or can you pick your carrier?

3. I live close to Tucson AZ and is there a way to find out if there are factory authorized service centers in AZ that can do an firmware fix?


Thanks to any response.

The Main and DSP I think are the key one. The ones you have are lower than the ones that were in My buggy unit. They were Main .87 and 45.43. Go to Denon website, then, U.S.A., Support Tab, There You'll find service center locators by either state or zip. I see there is a service center and a repair shop in AZ. Either one maybe able to do firmware. If they can't check in Ca. they have a Super Service Center listed that fixed mine. Call them and they will give You a SRA #. You can then send it to them any way You want, You Pay. They will send it back, They Pay. They got mine on a Monday morn I got it back on Friday same week. They are closer than New Jersey. GOLD CROWN ELECTRONICS.

Good luck
Ron
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post #270 of 545
11/1/09 at 6:40am
I Type really slow J.D.
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