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Line array - Page 2

post #31 of 109
Those $2, 2" drivers mated up with those $.20 tweeters could work if you cut the tweeter up a bit to get the CTC spacing down...crap, that's right, this is supposed to be full range, not a 2-way.
post #32 of 109
Kgveteran, how did you find the wholesale pricing?
post #33 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Is it possible to use full range drivers and avoid a XO ?

I've heard some arrays like this and they all sounded mediocre to me.
post #34 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

Power tapering reduces the effects of comb filtering, but it also reduces the effect of the line array. The more you taper, the closer it gets to a point source.

That entirely depends on how it's done and for what purpose/goal. The most useful purpose is to maintain the vertical coverage of the line and make the vertical pattern control much smoother vs. frequency. Depending on the segmentation (ie center to center and edge to edge spacing) of the line, you typically will see the vertical dispersion collapse to a very narrow lobe, particularly once you pass some distance. Higher in frequency still you will find repeating variations as you move vertically on axis from one device to the next. Ideally you are looking to minimize this non-ideal line source behavior with some combination of amplitude shading and/or tapering/delay of the line.

Nothing new here. There is tons of discussion and documentation of this in the pro audio world where such devices are very common for specific tasks, especially speech reinforcement in highly reflective spaces.
post #35 of 109
Thread Starter 
Thanx guys for all the feedback. With the 2" drivers I could use rectangle aluminum as a tall thin cabinet. I really like that idea. I could coat the interior with a deadening material. Then stuff it with insulation. My friend has a machine shop and could cut the holes for next to nothing. I could powder coat it for pennies also. I know, metal housings are bad, but I really like the idea. Is there anyway that the enclosure size would cause it to almost high pass above 150hz which is where i want it to be XO.

PartsExpress could ship all 80 at once also....cool.
post #36 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Would a line array of cheap coax drivers work ??

No. It's not the HF response of the individual drivers that's the limiting factor, but the center-to-center spacing.

I would also consider the Aura Cougar and/or Whisper.

John Murphy's design with PE's OEM variant of the Aura NS3 surprises me, because I would think 3" drivers would be too big for such a thing. But it might be worth watching.

Before you do, though, try to find a pair of domestic line arrays and listen to them. For this purpose even an electrostat or planar magnetic should work. Personally, I'm not a huge fan, but it's a subjective issue. They have a different kind of presentation from point sources.
post #37 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

No. It's not the HF response of the individual drivers that's the limiting factor, but the center-to-center spacing.
....

John Murphy's design with PE's OEM variant of the Aura NS3 surprises me, because I would think 3" drivers would be too big for such a thing. But it might be worth watching.

I think it's more complicated than C-C spacing. Edge-edge spacing also plays a part or maybe, more correctly, what % of the line is radiating and what % is dead space. Consider a line of 8" ribbons where the actual ribbon is only 5" long. Only 5/8 of the line is radiating but people still think that sounds pretty good and the 8" C-C spacing is irrelevant. The Aura/Daytons have a very small frame so I'd think you could easily have 5/8 of the line radiating so maybe it's not so bad.
post #38 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

I think it's more complicated than C-C spacing. Edge-edge spacing also plays a part or maybe, more correctly, what % of the line is radiating and what % is dead space. Consider a line of 8" ribbons where the actual ribbon is only 5" long. Only 5/8 of the line is radiating but people still think that sounds pretty good and the 8" C-C spacing is irrelevant. The Aura/Daytons have a very small frame so I'd think you could easily have 5/8 of the line radiating so maybe it's not so bad.

That's comparing a point source to a (small) line source, though. Interesting thought, nonetheless.
post #39 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

That's comparing a point source to a (small) line source, though.

A cone isn't a point source at high frequencies. It beams just like a ribbon with the same (vertical) dimension.
post #40 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

(40) per side http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=289-124

PE wholesale for $1.40 each.

I think the wiring harness will cost more than the drivers !

The sub will have to be 150hz. I wonder how the 15" kit sub will handle that.

I think sealed with insulation would work fine. I'll use a hole saw, heck with a router for 80 total holes.


These have a range up to 14,000 hz versus the other 2" Peerless units going up to 20,000hz. Would the 40 per side make up for the high end, or do you still need tweeters?

Do you know the wholesale pricing of the Peerless 2" units? I think those would look really nice, but quite a bit more money.



Also, what about these:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=269-482

They are priced good and have better response than the cheaper 2" drivers.
post #41 of 109
Thread Starter 
I really like the 2" drivers for $1.40 each (64 total). The cabinet will be aluminum tubing 3"x3"x96".

To get the 8ohms I want it looks like 32 drivers in each array. Groups of 4 in series equal 32ohms. Divide them by 8 groups in parallel and that will be 4ohms...at least on paper...

The drivers will be 89.00 and the two 8 foot aluminum tubes will be 48.00 each.

I'll use that spray on bed liner to deaden the aluminum, along with insulation.

This is all up in the air, but i really like the idea of the thin 3" cabinets. They will blend better. That budget may lend me a nice pair of 8" or 10" powered subs

KG
post #42 of 109
Where are you getting the tubes? That sounds like a really interesting surround-channel speaker.
post #43 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Where are you getting the tubes? That sounds like a really interesting surround-channel speaker.

They are square tubes and there is a metal super store in town.

Now, do I send the material to a shop to get 32 holes drilled or cut a long slot ???

They would be cool surround speakers too !
post #44 of 109
Thread Starter 
My hearing rolls off at about 14khz....so no tweeters needed

.... and when my wife is talking , about 8hz
post #45 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

My hearing rolls off at about 14khz....so no tweeters needed

.... and when my wife is talking , about 8hz

Ah, selective hearing jokes. NICE
post #46 of 109
Thread Starter 
Ok, I had to rewrite it out to get the resistance right.

All the drivers are 8ohms. If i series four drivers, thats 32ohms. If that is a group, I'll then parallel four groups to make 8ohms. That would be one large group of 16 drivers @ 8ohms. I can then parallel those two large groups of 16 drivers to make 4ohms.

It would be alot easier to scan the drawing, but my scanner is dead.

The Tube is only .4 cu ft. Any guess to see if it is big enough acoustically for the 32 drivers to reach down to their 150hz claimed lower limit ???

KG
post #47 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Ok, I had to rewrite it out to get the resistance right.

All the drivers are 8ohms. If i series four drivers, thats 32ohms. If that is a group, I'll then parallel four groups to make 8ohms. That would be one large group of 16 drivers @ 8ohms. I can then parallel those two large groups of 16 drivers to make 4ohms.

It would be alot easier to scan the drawing, but my scanner is dead.

The Tube is only .4 cu ft. Any guess to see if it is big enough acoustically for the 32 drivers to reach down to their 150hz claimed lower limit ???

KG



Thanks to this thread I just spent $300 on a box of tweets, some $2 full ranges and some $1.50 full ranges.

And to think I initially went to PE to get 2 sets of binding posts.
post #48 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by LHD21 View Post

Thanks to this thread I just spent $300 on a box of tweets, some $2 full ranges and some $1.50 full ranges.

And to think I initially went to PE to get 2 sets of binding posts.

Come on, tell us which ones?

I'm thinking about joining the line array club as well.

Are you guys going to curve the cabinets or do the power tapered wiring deal? Or are you just going to be slapping the drivers in and hope for the best?


Question: Can the coaxial speakers be used? Or are the tweeters too far apart?

Also, I have seen some line arrays that have a lot of mids (I guess), but only one single tweeter. Can that be done with all those 2" drivers only going to 14000hz and then using one tweeter to handle the rest?
post #49 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post


The Tube is only .4 cu ft. Any guess to see if it is big enough acoustically for the 32 drivers to reach down to their 150hz claimed lower limit ???

KG

I have no idea, but 3" wide and 3" deep seems pretty tight. The guy from Parts Express used a PVC pipe and I guess it took quite a bit of sound proofing to keep that "pipe sound" under control. He used Tang band 2 inchers I think.
post #50 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I have no idea, but 3" wide and 3" deep seems pretty tight. The guy from Parts Express used a PVC pipe and I guess it took quite a bit of sound proofing to keep that "pipe sound" under control. He used Tang band 2 inchers I think.

I wouldn't put them in a pipe, I would leave them open in the back and put 703 insulation behind them. That's what I did with the Aura 2" and it worked great.

I just got a couple of those little drivers and they are not bad for $1.4/ea.

mk
post #51 of 109
The more i look at the situation for the new house and the designated theater/listening space i think a Line Array might be my only option. Maybe a 60" array of 2" full rangers. I think i'll keep watching the specials/buyouts and bite when something really special comes along. I need another project like a hole in the head!
post #52 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Are you guys going to curve the cabinets or do the power tapered wiring deal? Or are you just going to be slapping the drivers in and hope for the best?

I'm going to do the, "curve the cabinets or do the power tapered wiring deal" Aka..."CBT" on my center channel. It will consist of somewhere around 18 ~ 20 Dayton Reference 6" (truncated frame) about 50 of the Aura 2" and about 132 of the Tangband 1/2" tweeters (PE # 264-841) These little Tangband tweeters are only 0.77" outside diameter so center to center spacing will be really tight. Oh, actually it's "and"...curve the cabinets "and" do the power taper... It's called a Constant Beamwidth Transducer.

mk
post #53 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

The more i look at the situation for the new house and the designated theater/listening space i think a Line Array might be my only option. Maybe a 60" array of 2" full rangers. I think i'll keep watching the specials/buyouts and bite when something really special comes along. I need another project like a hole in the head!

Don't do 60" high, do floor to ceiling... infinite line!

mk
post #54 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montekay View Post

Don't do 60" high, do floor to ceiling... infinite line!

mk

I'm gonna need room for a pair of 8" woofers either 1 top/1 bottom or both on the bottom.

This little Gem from Vifa seems interesting



Not a bad FR at all if the graph is accurate



Might not even need the woofers with sixteen of these per side
post #55 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

I'm gonna need room for a pair of 8" woofers either 1 top/1 bottom or both on the bottom.
This little Gem from Vifa seems interesting
Might not even need the woofers with sixteen of these per side

Yeah if they are sealed box it could do ok without a woofer. I have 18 of the Dayton Reference 6" drivers in my lines open baffle and they move more than I like when crossed at 50 Hz so I moved them up to 70 Hz. So open baffle no way but sealed maybe. You could get a bunch of the Tangband 6.5" woofers and make parallel woofer lines. Those have around 11 mm peak X-max. Sixteen of those each side would work great!

mk
post #56 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Craig View Post

I've heard some arrays like this and they all sounded mediocre to me.

Hey Rick,
Since my library of MP3's are mediocre I'll be safe for a while. Now if i drop a Sota TT into the mix, I better get some high end.
post #57 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Come on, tell us which ones?

I'm thinking about joining the line array club as well.

Are you guys going to curve the cabinets or do the power tapered wiring deal? Or are you just going to be slapping the drivers in and hope for the best?


Question: Can the coaxial speakers be used? Or are the tweeters too far apart?

Also, I have seen some line arrays that have a lot of mids (I guess), but only one single tweeter. Can that be done with all those 2" drivers only going to 14000hz and then using one tweeter to handle the rest?

Code:
QTY  PartNumber  Product  Price Ext. Price 
1    CATALOG FREE CATALOG                                   $0.00  $0.00 
11   091-1245 Dayton BPA-38G HD Binding Post Pair Gold      $6.45  $70.95 
10   269-482 JVC 3" x 5" Full Range Driver                  $1.50  $15.00 
100  289-124 2" Full Range Aluminum Cone Neodymium Driver   $2.00  $200.00 
1    269-810 200 Onkyo Tweeters for $10                     $10.00 $10.00 
1    FedEx Home Delivery                                    $0.00  $0.00
I'm planning on using the 2" in an infinite, stereo test array. I'll do some close mic testing and see what the response is as well as pull the TSPs with a WT2. Then I can do some modeling and come up with an enclosure. My initial plan is to use a receiver I already have and pipe my input through an FBQ to EQ the in room response and then into the receiver. Should be a pretty fun project. The end result is some fun, some experience and hopefully some speakers adept at background music for a party.
post #58 of 109
Wow. Fedex ground just called to get clarification on my address. 2 days after order and they're on the truck. Thats pretty great for free shipping.
post #59 of 109
Any progress KG? Those 2" Neo drivers from PE look really tempting at $2 each for a hundred pieces.
post #60 of 109
Thread Starter 
As alway, life has interupted my plans. I'm hoping to get this going if i can scrounge up the cash during a real crunch....
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