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Cedia 2009: Theta digital news!!!@@@ - Page 5

post #121 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Exactly what are we talking about here? We are talking about visual and auditory senses are we not? Of course there is a subjective assessment, which is why I do not like Lexicon.Even now you will not admit that the Denon sounds better than the Lexicon, you were so obsessed with that brand. You all do not get to decide what criteria Theta owners use. We chose to use sound quality not the criteria of a bunch of geeks mostly who do not even own high-end audio systems. As they do not own high-end systems, all they can do is quote objective measurements. Stick with something you know about, law. The psychological analogy is a gross misrepresentation and shows ignorance. You are not trying to help any Theta owners here. It's the same stuff you always peddle. Go away. You will not make any money here. You are the last lawyer any Theta owners would use.

Hmmm. Bulldogger, or whatever your name is, you were the first one to raise the legal option, spouting off some business about small claims court, and what you knew, and blah, blah, blah, and I responded to that. The most I ever said was that I would talk to someone on the phone about it, after mentioning that I was likely not interested in it.

Instead, using the same forceful rhetoric and logic that has characterized every one of your posts about your toys being better, you again name-drop your arguments, and suggest that I'm looking for business. Let's get it straight, B-digger. This particular controversy started when I called you on your irrational defense of Theta, particularly over the issue of HDMI, and I offered you the honorable opportunity of putting up your money, or shutting up. Well, you've obviously not stopped talking, but, then again, you never did put up a nickel, did you?

Sorry. You lacked the courage of your convictions.

Thanks,

Nick
post #122 of 501
Moderator

let's limit the posts to technical issues please
post #123 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

I think for long time Theta luvers and CB3 owners, at this point, its not a boycott, its just not buyin' into any more until we see HDMI 1.3 workin'.
I've been there since Theta sold to ATI anyway.

I don't know if this is a red letter day or not. Steve and I agree completely.

Is HA copyrighted?
post #124 of 501
Thread Starter 
Les, I don't recall you and I ever having a disagreement?

HE! HA!
post #125 of 501
Steve,
True, I can't really recall one either. But an engineer and a lawyer agreeing on something? Surely worthy of note somehow or other. Besides this thread was getting to gloomy.

I'm rather disappointed in the way ATI-Theta is handling things too, but wait and see was the only real, viable option out there. Small high end companies have always been a bit flakey and Theta worse than most. About the only difference for me this time is that the performance vs cost will make them have to beat out the competition as the upgrade will cost me as much as many of the possible alternatives this time. When there's hardware shipping then we'll see how it all stacks up.
post #126 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo View Post

I offered you the honorable opportunity of putting up your money, or shutting up. Well, you've obviously not stopped talking, but, then again, you never did put up a nickel, did you?

Sorry. You lacked the courage of your convictions.

Thanks,

Nick

Sorry I don't gamble much. It has nothing to do with your bet or my courage. If you devised some other sort of test of courage, I could take you up on that. Why don't YOU personally offers some technical reasons as to back up your claims about Theta's CBIII technical inferiority vs the parts selection in other processors. Here's my submission. (1). Only processor costing much more than the Casablanca feature discrete analog outs. (2). The capacitors that Theta uses, the Muse Nichicon are still current caps http://www.minisemi.com/Nichicon%20M...apacitors.html. Please ask any audio engineers how these caps compare to others. I believe you will find that are still considered state of the art. (3). The PCM1704 dac is still current and the most expensive that TI sells. http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine....yword=PCM1704U You can debate as to why it would be THE MOST expensive dac in the line up even though some of the other dacs have better published specs. I know what I was told, for this application it still the best dac because of the design, sign magnitude. Now the DSP chips in the Casablanca are outdated. The new board would have to have more processing power, MIPS than what Theta has. That would have to be included in any upgrade. The core parts of the Casablanca are still current production parts and the much more expensive than any of the processor in the 10k or so price range.


You can debate how much of a correlation there is between prices and performance or attack why these companies might prices some components higher than others. However, the CBIII still has some of the most expensive and parts that these vendors who sells these parts consider some of their best. You can attack the vendors but all are free to believe what they wish. Most of the parts in the CBIII are still current in spite of claims to the contrary. Nick called me out. Let him defend this.
post #127 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Sorry I don't gamble much. It has nothing to do with your bet or my courage. If you devised some other sort of test of courage, I could take you up on that. Why don't YOU personally offers some technical reasons as to back up your claims about Theta's CBIII technical inferiority vs the parts selection in other processors. Here's my submission. (1). Only processor costing much more than the Casablanca feature discrete analog outs. (2). The capacitors that Theta uses, the Muse Nichicon are still current caps http://www.minisemi.com/Nichicon%20M...apacitors.html. Please ask any audio engineers how these caps compare to others. I believe you will find that are still considered state of the art. (3). The PCM1704 dac is still current and the most expensive that TI sells. http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine....yword=PCM1704U You can debate as to why it would be THE MOST expensive dac in the line up even though some of the other dacs have better published specs. I know what I was told, for this application it still the best dac because of the design, sign magnitude. Now the DSP chips in the Casablanca are outdated. The new board would have to have more processing power, MIPS than what Theta has. That would have to be included in any upgrade. The core parts of the Casablanca are still current production parts and the much more expensive than any of the processor in the 10k or so price range.


You can debate how much of a correlation there is between prices and performance or attack why these companies might prices some components higher than others. However, the CBIII still has some of the most expensive and parts that these vendors who sells these parts consider some of their best. You can attack the vendors but all are free to believe what they wish. Most of the parts in the CBIII are still current in spite of claims to the contrary. Nick called me out. Let him defend this.

As you correctly pointed out earlier, I'm an attorney, not a designer of Audio/Video gear. For that reason, I've never said a word about the "technical inferiority" of Theta's parts whatsoever. Nor do I intend to now, since I won't pretend for a minute that I'm competent to address that subject. From what I've read of your posts, you certainly don't inspire confidence in your judgment on the subject, either.

Nor did I say that the Theta sounded badly. My only comment on the sound quality of the Theta was based on my singular experience in auditioning it many years ago, and chose the Proceed PAV/PDSD instead. Whether the Theta then progressed to better sound through its different DACs I neither knew nor cared about. The Proceed sounded better to my ears when I auditioned them, and chose it. Ultimately, after a sojourn to Krell, I landed with Lexicon, and that sounded best to my ears. The only reason I've moved to the superb Denon A/V preamp is because I felt that the Lexicon was in danger of becoming what Theta had become for several years--irrelevant. To its credit, Lexicon has offered yet another update to the MC12HD, and it frankly lacks nothing from a versatility standpoint that was my primary reason for moving. As I've said before, I don't have net regret in moving to the Denon, because it is such a great piece, but I do have regret. If Lexicon returns with a platform that I think is more flexible, I would have no hesitation in returning.

What you seem to have missed about my earlier posts was the corporate responsibility behind the product. If I became antsy over a perceived standstill in Lexicon's progress, imagine how I'd have felt if I owned a CBIII. Theta arrived with its legendary 6-shooter at just the point in time to effectively declare both DVD-Audio and Multichannel SACD either dead or on life-support, and then engaged in shameless puffery to convince people that HDMI was right around the corner--something that you bought into, and vigorously espoused, for whatever reasons are compelling to you.

Your posts have also continued to betray an equation of money spent with sound quality. You've taken people to task over the brand of speakers they've purchased, and, in this thread as well, once again suggested that people that don't buy the products that are somehow revered in your judgment, well, their opinion doesn't matter. I've not been afraid to spend decent money on equipment, but it's in the worst of taste to trot that out as though it meant something in an ultimate sense. I learned a long time ago, when blind testing three brands--Chateau Latour, Chateau Lafite, and Chateau Montelena--that the most expensive brand didn't taste the best, and buying labels is for saps. I know I've shifted to a different discussion, but I can assure you the analogy works.

I can't tell you how much I don't care about what the individual parts are in the Theta, because of course that's never what I've talked about, and it's disingenuous for you to shift the topic to something like that. My bet was simple: When Evelyn was on these boards cooing you and others to believe in the imminence of HDMI on an old platform, I called bullsh*t on her, and you (and others) once again defended your pet brand. So I took what was being offered as the "likely" time for the arrival of the add-on, doubled that time, and then offered for those who disagreed to put up $500, since everyone was so certain. Frankly, I liked my chances. As it turned out, I could have even laid odds, and I'd have still won. No one wanted to put up a nickel, you included.

Yes, there was a feud that erupted between the Lexicon enthusiasts and the Theta enthusiasts, and all we ever wanted to talk about was objective criterion, and all you ever wanted to talk about was that golden sound that you heard, which was hopelessly subjective. So I'll go on record once again: the Lexicon was the best processor I'd heard, and that was why I bought it. I have not been displeased to move to the Denon, which in some respect equals the Lexicon, but does not surpass it. And yet . . . who really cares what I think about how it sounds. That is pointless discussion, on the par of arguing which song is "better" on the same album, by the same artist.

Believe it or not, there were people that chose Lexicon that could have easily afforded Theta, but, for whatever priorities they ascribed to the purchase of an A/V preamp, sound quality among them, they chose Lexicon. Get over it.

Yes, I'm being silly to waste the time I've invested in this post, but it's after 10pm, and I'm not doing anything anyway. Have fun.

Thanks,

Nick
post #128 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by euryd View Post

How does one define a high-end company?

1. They charge a lot for their products.
2. Their products are finicky, i.e. does not always work
3. They take a long time to upgrade to the latest audio standards claiming how difficult the process is to achieve perfection in spite of far "lower-end" companies having already produced fully operational products. That is they keep re-inventing the wheel claiming a better wheel.
4. They have high margins for their dealers to ensure there is a reasonable number of fan boys touting the superiority of their products (see point 1).

OK, I will admit not all are like 1-4 above but a surprising many are.

As regards #4, you are mistaken. Theta margins are equal to or lower than other manufacturers.
post #129 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

As regards #4, you are mistaken. Theta margins are equal to or lower than other manufacturers.

I guess that explains everything here. Poor pricing structure and a company that had to be sold.
post #130 of 501
Thread Starter 
I bet bubkus that despite all of the displeasure demonstrated in this thread by loyal too long Theta owners, and the displeasure in this thread by predictable Theta bashers (hi Jeff), that Theta will likely come through and the new HDMI 1.3 CB3 will be available by close of 2010; upgrades are more complex, so who knows how much longer that will take??? This is an educated guess and remaining hope.

The fact that Theta has come out with the Theta Generation VIII DAC v.2
and its Blu Ray player (despite our legit concerns that what do we need to spend big bucks for a Blu Ray player if we have the Oppo and are just using the player as a HDMI transport) says Theta is at least workin' on something.

Since I have a fully stacked CB3 and Six Shooter I lose nothing by being patient and waiting.

The catcalling, etc will continue unless and until the new Theta comes thru here.

Meanwhile, Jeff doesn't recommend that others buy a Halcro SSP new, so he got screwed. HA! HA! And Nick got the best of us all as he is very happy with his Denon and from all reports its a very nice piece.
post #131 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

I bet bubkus that despite all of the displeasure demonstrated in this thread by loyal too long Theta owners, and the displeasure in this thread by predictable Theta bashers (hi Jeff), that Theta will likely come through and the new HDMI 1.3 CB3 will be available by close of 2010; upgrades are more complex, so who knows how much longer that will take??? This is an educated guess and remaining hope.

The fact that Theta has come out with the Theta Generation VIII DAC v.2
and its Blu Ray player (despite our legit concerns that what do we need to spend big bucks for a Blu Ray player if we have the Oppo and are just using the player as a HDMI transport) says Theta is at least workin' on something.

Since I have a fully stacked CB3 and Six Shooter I lose nothing by being patient and waiting.

The catcalling, etc will continue unless and until the new Theta comes thru here.

Meanwhile, Jeff doesn't recommend that others buy a Halcro SSP new, so he got screwed. HA! HA! And Nick got the best of us all as he is very happy with his Denon and from all reports its a very nice piece.

Actually, I didn't get screwed. I got what I bought. I've had HDMI and lossless for almost 3 years. I do hope Theta comes through for Theta folks. Really. But likely, it'll be a full upgrade to a new CB IV (my prediction).
post #132 of 501
I wish Jeff would give the Denon AVP-A1 a try...would like to see his comments

disclaimer: I have one and love it...[my opinion only]
post #133 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I wish Jeff would give the Denon AVP-A1 a try...would like to see his comments

disclaimer: I have one and love it...[my opinion only]

Mark,

The Denon is on my short list for sure. Your praises are not the only ones I've read. It sounds like it does everything right and with aplomb. Who knows, while my SSP still has some value, I may try the Denon.

What is the MSRP on it?
post #134 of 501
Purchased the DTC-9.8 for an incredibly good price. However, the Denon is intriguing as it is also quite inexpensive.

Wondering what is coming out post CES - since Theta will make me wait at least that long. Don't get me wrong, the Theta will be THE piece - when it ships, that is.
post #135 of 501
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Mark,

The Denon is on my short list for sure. Your praises are not the only ones I've read. It sounds like it does everything right and with aplomb. Who knows, while my SSP still has some value, I may try the Denon.

What is the MSRP on it?

$7500@

I have heard good things re the Denon from several folks including one or two prior Theta owners. I have two Denon 2809CIs in two "smaller" systems in our home and the work flawlessly without a hitch,no software hiccups at all, with pretty much everything connected via HDMI. If I didn't have Theta so long, with outstanding Xtreme DACs and the best multi-channel analog preamp Six Shooter by far among surround processors, with the remaining potential still of an HDMI upgrade, then I would seriously consider the Denon.
post #136 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo View Post

As you correctly pointed out earlier, I'm an attorney, not a designer of Audio/Video gear. For that reason, I've never said a word about the "technical inferiority" of Theta's parts whatsoever. Nor do I intend to now, since I won't pretend for a minute that I'm competent to address that subject. From what I've read of your posts, you certainly don't inspire confidence in your judgment on the subject, either.

Exactly my point. You can not offer a subjective assessment or an objective assessment. . You have nothing to offer here. My degrees are in psychology and I am not an engineer. However, I ask A LOT of questions. Learned stuff too from many of the engineers who work at these companies. What ever my state of technical knowledge, yours is not even at a sufficient level to refute ANYTHING I have said. This was just an attempt to shift this away from personals attacks but you were flaccid in both subjective and objective areas.
post #137 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

the best multi-channel analog preamp Six Shooter by far among surround processors, with the remaining potential still of an HDMI upgrade, then I would seriously consider the Denon.

The catch with the Six Shooter is that the Casablanca sounds better directly connected to the amps, at least that is my experience.
post #138 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Actually, I didn't get screwed. I got what I bought. I've had HDMI and lossless for almost 3 years. I do hope Theta comes through for Theta folks. Really. But likely, it'll be a full upgrade to a new CB IV (my prediction).

I think you got a fair value considering as how much use you have gotten out of it and at the price you paid. Jeff I do not think there are enough engineers currently at ATI to do a CB IV. My guess is that a lot would have to be outsourced at great expense in a rough economic climate. The surround processor game is a tough one. I remember BAT, Wadia, and Ayre were companies that years back were supposed to market surround processors. If I think hard enough, I sure I can think of a few others. It may have been wise that they did not.
post #139 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Exactly my point. You can not offer a subjective assessment or an objective assessment. . You have nothing to offer here. My degrees are in psychology and I am not an engineer. However, I ask A LOT of questions. Learned stuff too from many of the engineers who work at these companies. What ever my state of technical knowledge, yours is not even at a sufficient level to refute ANYTHING I have said. This was just an attempt to shift this away from personals attacks but you were flaccid in both subjective and objective areas.

Sniff, sniff . . . I guess that pretty much says it, BD.

Thanks,

Nick
post #140 of 501
The AVP_A1 is highly rated indeed. It would be a great upgrade from the Integra 9.8. I wish I could sell this dust collecting CBIII or trade it in for the Denon...heck I b et I can get more for my Integra 9.8 than for the $12000 CBIII. What a freaking disaster.
post #141 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Auber View Post

Steve,
True, I can't really recall one either. But an engineer and a lawyer agreeing on something? Surely worthy of note somehow or other. Besides this thread was getting to gloomy.

As an Aggie Engineer, I feel the gig'em urge to chime in on this one and happily agree. Well said Les. Ditto to Steve
post #142 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

$7500@

I have heard good things re the Denon from several folks including one or two prior Theta owners. I have two Denon 2809CIs in two "smaller" systems in our home and the work flawlessly without a hitch,no software hiccups at all, with pretty much everything connected via HDMI. If I didn't have Theta so long, with outstanding Xtreme DACs and the best multi-channel analog preamp Six Shooter by far among surround processors, with the remaining potential still of an HDMI upgrade, then I would seriously consider the Denon.

There is a tremendous deal on eBay for refurbed units, with a manufacturer's warranty, for about $4500. You can also get one new there for $5500.

At $4500, perhaps some here can take a flyer. It's a means of having everything hooked up to 1 unit, and maybe you can put your Theta on extended leave of absence, pending return if HDMI ever appears. Who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised at what today's technology sounds like.

Repeat after me: Just because it costs less, doesn't mean it's not great. Just because it costs less . . .

Go ahead, Steve B., what is there to lose but your pride? You may not gamble in the conventional sense, but you've got a daring soul . . . you don't even have to give up the Theta.

Expand your mind.

Thanks,

Nick
post #143 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I think you got a fair value considering as how much use you have gotten out of it and at the price you paid. Jeff I do not think there are enough engineers currently at ATI to do a CB IV. My guess is that a lot would have to be outsourced at great expense in a rough economic climate. The surround processor game is a tough one. I remember BAT, Wadia, and Ayre were companies that years back were supposed to market surround processors. If I think hard enough, I sure I can think of a few others. It may have been wise that they did not.

As to BAT, I do remember them having a shell of what was going to be their tubed processor at the 2002 or 2003 CEDIA. And as you say, it never happened. Hmmmmmm
post #144 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by shumi_9 View Post

The AVP_A1 is highly rated indeed. It would be a great upgrade from the Integra 9.8. I wish I could sell this dust collecting CBIII or trade it in for the Denon...heck I b et I can get more for my Integra 9.8 than for the $12000 CBIII. What a freaking disaster.

I'll pay you $1200 for it. When the HDMI upgrade comes out, I'll upgrade it and sell it for 100% profit.
post #145 of 501
Are you serious? That is better than any other offer I received (zero). Let us talk...
post #146 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I guess that explains everything here. Poor pricing structure and a company that had to be sold.

Jeff, who said anything about a poor pricing structure. I simply said, their dealer pricing was industry standard and fair to both dealer and customer. Regards, Norm
post #147 of 501
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shumi_9 View Post

Are you serious? That is better than any other offer I received (zero). Let us talk...

Shumi does your CB3 have Xtreme DACS? Is it in perfect working order? I will gladly consider paying you $1200 for it if so. And are you still in Queen Creek? I'll even drive out and pick it up, so no shipping. HA! HAA! HAW!

I remember back in 2005 you traded in your Casanova with Theta's then upgrade program, was it to L&M Custom in Tempe, then a Theta dealer, for your then CB3, right?

And aren't you the dude who did all the Crestron programming on that deluxe Sounds Like Music store which unfortunately went under a few years back. It was a really state of the art store then and your Crestron programming throughout the store was indeed most remarkable.
post #148 of 501
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

Ok so here is the official news.. The Compli Blue is just about ready to ship.. Its expected to ship in the next 3-4 weeks and its awesome..

Its got Theta's Power supplies and chassis and lots of things that make it look better and sound better than any one else's Blue Ray player on the market today.. Well at least that what I think..

As most of you remember the Compli was awesome and we always thought it was the best DVD player on the market and I think the Compli Blue will do the same for Blue Ray..

It uses the Oppo transport and everything else is Thetas and its going to be sweet...

Pricing i can tell you will be 3-4K list and we should have final pricing in the next few days..

Theta's HDMI solution for the Casablanca III is coming along great as well. It was shown working at Cedia and we expect to start CBIII upgrades by years end.. The HDMI solution for the Casablanca III is going to be awesome.. It will be the only US made HDMI solution that i know of..

Theta will have the most amazing Audio Video solutions that are made right here in Southern California and you can bet they will look and sound like Theta has always has delivered !!!

Thanks
CRaig

I wonder if Shumi still feels the same?
post #149 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

Jeff, who said anything about a poor pricing structure. I simply said, their dealer pricing was industry standard and fair to both dealer and customer. Regards, Norm

I did.
post #150 of 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo View Post

Sniff, sniff . . . I guess that pretty much says it, BD.

Thanks,

Nick

I do not even know why you and I are having this discussion. We have more in common than not. I agree with your assessment that the Proceed PAV was better than the CBII Superior dacs. I see your equipment choices and I agree they are very good choices. You mentioned "name dropping." Man my salary is so low compared to many of you here that names like Steve Bruzonsky are big shots too me. This is frustrating for me because I can not take the "hit" with a worthless processor, if Theta does not deliver.
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