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Cedia 2009: Theta digital news!!!@@@ - Page 9

post #241 of 501
9/25/09 at 11:03am
I plan to wait and see what and when Theta has something to offer. I will audition it and see, though I expect it to be stellar when it is released. However, while the Denon is a nice piece, it is not in the same sonic area as the Theta - however, in HDMI, right now - it wins! Hands down!
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post #242 of 501
9/25/09 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS View Post

I plan to wait and see what and when Theta has something to offer. I will audition it and see, though I expect it to be stellar when it is released. However, while the Denon is a nice piece, it is not in the same sonic area as the Theta - however, in HDMI, right now - it wins! Hands down!

Hi Peter:

In what kind of system have you used the Denon?

Thanks,

Nick
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post #243 of 501
9/25/09 at 2:38pm
I have heard it in a couple of systems, pre Aud. Level 2 calibration though.

I have found it to be a bit "over-bassy" and pronounced. On analog this can be good, but on digital sources it seems a bit "heavy". I will hopefully hear on which has been calibrated with the latest Aud stuff soon. Don't know if that will change my impression though.
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post #244 of 501
9/25/09 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Shapiro View Post

IAs for 2-channel music. my preamp is an MBL 6010D, an extremely expensive analog pre that is specifically voiced to the rest of my MBL system, so any comparisons between it and the Denon would be unfair and meaningless.

David

Wow do you like to evade questions. So NO the Denon is far inferior even with room correction. Sooooo, room correction gets you only so far. And NO you do not have any from of room correction in your two channel room. The high-end analog pre-amp is so superior to the Denon that the comparison is unfair and meaningless. I think I get it.
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post #245 of 501
9/25/09 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Shapiro View Post

I had an extreme DAC for the front speakers and, I believe center, and superior for the rest

Looks like I gave you too much credit. The original Superior dacs are vastly inferior to the Xtreme dacs. Every negative comment about the Casablanca usually involves those dacs. The surrounds would be pretty dead in comparison to the front channels. I can see why you prefer the Denon. Too bad you did not have Xtremes all around. One of the first things I noticed was how much more immersing the surround channels are with the Xtremes. Xtremes all around do make a difference. You would need those to make credible comments. Without them, your comments, it's impossible to make an accurate comment.
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post #246 of 501
9/25/09 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS View Post

I have heard it in a couple of systems, pre Aud. Level 2 calibration though.

I have found it to be a bit "over-bassy" and pronounced. On analog this can be good, but on digital sources it seems a bit "heavy". I will hopefully hear on which has been calibrated with the latest Aud stuff soon. Don't know if that will change my impression though.

That sounds pretty vague, in every respect. I've heard Theta on "a couple of systems" too, but recognizing that things like rooms, associated equipment, and especially sources are dominating influences in any meaningful comparison, I wouldn't hazard an opinion on whether something sounds better or worse than it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Wow do you like to evade question. So NO the Denon is far inferior even with room correction. Sooooo, room correction gets you only so far. And NO you do not have any from of room correction in your two channel room. The high-end analog pre-amp is so superior to the Denon that the comparison is unfair and meaningless. I think I get it.

He didn't evade the question at all, BD. I would fully expect a high end two-channel preamp to sound better, for what it does, than any surround processor--two channel stereo. Listen to a Halcro analog preamp with its high-end two channel amplifier, and you'll understand what he's saying.

Instead, you come out swinging. What you're reacting to is his conclusion that he liked the Denon better than his former CBIII, and that hurt your feelings.

Thanks,

Nick
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post #247 of 501
9/25/09 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo View Post

Whatever, B-Dog. I won't for moment foray into the type of conclusions you do based on the individual experience of one or two people. Nor have I ever said that the Denon sounds better than the Lexicon. I've simply said that its sound quality doesn't make me miss the Lexicon, except for Logic 7.

So now what? Because one or two unspecified people went from a Lexicon to a Theta, does that prove some point you're trying to make? I've read the poster's comments on this thread regarding his preference for the Denon over the CBIII, and I appreciate his input, but read closely his conclusion that room correction was a substantial difference.

As much as you want to suggest you're approaching these discussions objectively, well, then up jumps the devil again. Good luck.

Thanks,

Nick

Hmmm, what I am reading that where he has spent the most money, he has no bass correction. Bass correction was obviously trumped by a superior analog pre-amp which has been my point all along. Bass correction only gets you so far which is why it can not make a poor sounding processor a great one.
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post #248 of 501
9/25/09 at 5:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo View Post



He didn't evade the question at all, BD. I would fully expect a high end two-channel preamp to sound better, for what it does, than any surround processor--two channel stereo. Listen to a Halcro analog preamp with its high-end two channel amplifier, and you'll understand what he's saying.

Instead, you come out swinging. What you're reacting to is his conclusion that he liked the Denon better than his former CBIII, and that hurt your feelings.

Thanks,

Nick

Exactly which is what I said. The Six Shooter qualifies as a high-end pre-amp and the same thing happens. Hurt my feeling? Please. Two channel source with a two channel pre-amps or 8 channel pre-amp with an eight channel source. If they are good enough,this is a greater difference.
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post #249 of 501
9/25/09 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo View Post

Whatever, B-Dog. I won't for moment foray into the type of conclusions you do based on the individual experience of one or two people.

Nick

You do not have to do that. I do take the observations of others seriously. Do what ever you feel. Does not affect me. In all seriousness, I do not take YOUR observations that seriously as you seem incapable of true objective discussions or subjective ones. I think flaccid was the term I used. I tried to engage you in an objective discussion about build quality. Then you admit your lack of knowledge but that does not stop you from claiming that one processor is the best one ever built. What gives?
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post #250 of 501
9/25/09 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

You do not have to do that. I do take the observations of others seriously. Do what ever you feel. Does not affect me. In all seriousness, I do not take YOUR observations that seriously as you seem incapable of true objective discussions or subjective ones. I think flaccid was the term I used. I tried to engage you in an objective discussion about build quality. Then you admit your lack of knowledge but that does not stop you from claiming that one processor is the best one ever built. What gives?

Again, your feelings are getting hurt. What was your "objective" attempt to engage me in a discussion on "build quality," other than you looking up the prices of different parts that appear in different units, and then passing it off as some sort of sophistication on your part, as if it contained an ounce of credibility?

I deliberately avoid proclaiming inherently subjective judgments as the "facts" that you so clumsily build most of your "arguments" on, and all of it is so transparently an attempt to support your real proposition, i.e., your toy is the best toy.

There are things that can be discussed objectively, such as feature-sets, capitalization of the companies, release dates of upgrades. As for build quality, I can assure you that I either own or have owned a number of pieces of equipment where build quality is evident even to an untrained eye, and the Denon is easily among them. I'm grateful that professional reviewers have fairly universally concurred in those observations regarding the Denon. You, on the other hand, take things way too far by suggesting that you've somehow acquired an expertise beyond a layperson's, primarily because you've engaged in some superficial inquiry like how much a part costs. Is that like the legal advice you were espousing earlier in this thread, on what you'd heard from some lawyer?

I would have concluded that it was simply me that bothered you, and left it alone. Your pretty snide comments to David, who posted on his preference for the Denon over the CBIII, were evidence that your problem was with anyone that dared to suggest something bad about the Most-Revered Theta. Very ironic considering the little ditty beneath your signature.

Thanks,

Nick
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post #251 of 501
9/25/09 at 9:36pm
Bulldogger, I cannot follow you.

David is the only one in this thread that had at home both CBIII and Denon.
His comments are usefull.

Unless you organize a weekend with a real A/B comparison at home, you will never know. (or bring your CBIII to a shop that has the Denon)

What he says is that he enjoys more his $ 7,500 Denon even with DVDs, than his CBIII/ 1 Xtreme card, probably because the room correction brings more in his system than the good analog section / DAC from the CBIII. There is no more to learn than this.

So to get a better sound from the CBIII, you may need to pay $ 5,000 for the upgrade PLUS $ 2,500 for the Audyssey (or $ 5,000 for the balanced one) but you will not have the Audyssey Dynamic Volume.

BTW, I still find strange that nobody gave a report of how the CB/ HDMI sounds at Cedia ? This thread is about Cedia 2009 news. isn't it ?
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post #252 of 501
9/25/09 at 10:14pm
As far as I've read anywhere the Theta display at CEDIA was static. No sound to report.
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post #253 of 501
9/26/09 at 2:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by autentic View Post

Bulldogger, I cannot follow you.

David is the only one in this thread that had at home both CBIII and Denon.
His comments are usefull.

Unless you organize a weekend with a real A/B comparison at home, you will never know. (or bring your CBIII to a shop that has the Denon)

What he says is that he enjoys more his $ 7,500 Denon even with DVDs, than his CBIII/ 1 Xtreme card, probably because the room correction brings more in his system than the good analog section / DAC from the CBIII. There is no more to learn than this.

So to get a better sound from the CBIII, you may need to pay $ 5,000 for the upgrade PLUS $ 2,500 for the Audyssey (or $ 5,000 for the balanced one) but you will not have the Audyssey Dynamic Volume.

BTW, I still find strange that nobody gave a report of how the CB/ HDMI sounds at Cedia ? This thread is about Cedia 2009 news. isn't it ?

I will make it simple. His comparison involved dacs that are not EVEN POSSIBLE for use in the upgrade. It is of limited value. Now had he used dacs still in production then his comments would be very relevant to those dacs. Had he had Xtreme dacs on all channels then his comments, then I would not have any basis for these comments. But he is trying to make a performance comparison with dacs that can not even be used in the upgrade? Seriously, how can that be useful?
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post #254 of 501
9/26/09 at 2:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I will make it simple. His comparison involved dacs that are not EVEN POSSIBLE for use in the upgrade. It is of limited value. Now had he used dacs still in production then his comments would be very relevant to those dacs. Had he had Xtreme dacs on all channels then his comments, then I would not have any basis for these comments. But he is trying to make a performance comparison with dacs that can not even be used in the upgrade? Seriously, how can that be useful?

I thought that Xtreme Card could be use for the upgrade. Am I wrong ?
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post #255 of 501
9/26/09 at 4:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by autentic View Post

I thought that Xtreme Card could be use for the upgrade. Am I wrong ?

The original Superior dacs that were used for all of the remaining channels, the surround effect channels . The DACs HE USED FOR SURROUND EFFECTS ARE DISCONTINUED. Using those dacs, would result in a vastly different experience than using all Xtremes. They can not be used for the upgrade. When David compares the Denon which he only uses as a surround processor to a Casablanca III with dacs that are no longer even in production it is of no value to someone using the Superior II, or Xtreme dacs which are considerably better. Even had he used the Superior II dacs, the experience would have been different significantly from what all Xtremes can do. You are wrong if you believe that it's an apples to apples comparison when the original Superior dacs in question are not going to be used for Theta's upgrade and even now are discontinued. David would have had to buy new dacs cards to even get the upgrade..
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post #256 of 501
9/26/09 at 4:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Satullo View Post

Again, your feelings are getting hurt. What was your "objective" attempt to engage me in a discussion on "build quality," other than you looking up the prices of different parts that appear in different units, and then passing it off as some sort of sophistication on your part, as if it contained an ounce of credibility?

I deliberately avoid proclaiming inherently subjective judgments as the "facts" that you so clumsily build most of your "arguments" on, and all of it is so transparently an attempt to support your real proposition, i.e., your toy is the best toy.

There are things that can be discussed objectively, such as feature-sets, capitalization of the companies, release dates of upgrades. As for build quality, I can assure you that I either own or have owned a number of pieces of equipment where build quality is evident even to an untrained eye, and the Denon is easily among them. I'm grateful that professional reviewers have fairly universally concurred in those observations regarding the Denon. You, on the other hand, take things way too far by suggesting that you've somehow acquired an expertise beyond a layperson's, primarily because you've engaged in some superficial inquiry like how much a part costs. Is that like the legal advice you were espousing earlier in this thread, on what you'd heard from some lawyer?

I would have concluded that it was simply me that bothered you, and left it alone. Your pretty snide comments to David, who posted on his preference for the Denon over the CBIII, were evidence that your problem was with anyone that dared to suggest something bad about the Most-Revered Theta. Very ironic considering the little ditty beneath your signature.

Thanks,

Nick

Nick you are blowing smoke. First you deride me for taking subjective experiences of a few seriously. Then you try to hold up those very same subjective assessments. Now I am making snide comments? My comments are very valid. The processor that he has is the best that Denon is making. I am challenging any assessment that does not involves a comparison to the best that Theta is making, ALL EXTREME DACS. You have already disparaged anyone including David who would post subjective assessments. I take David's comments seriously but do not feel he is being fair when he leaves out that his processor was using the older Supeior dacs for surrounds. THAT'S A BIG OMISSION. Nick, you do not bother me or hurt my feelings. How can you? You are the one that I have embarrassed by showing that you that you can not even discuss 2.00 caps. All you can do is make this personal. I HAVE TRIED TO TAKE IT IN ANOTHER DIRECTION. You were not capable of any real technical discussion or subjective one. Then as if no one can see this you go on about how some processor is the best ever built? You are making a fool of yourself. You should take my sig seriously and move along. Why are YOU so obsessed with a brand you have never owned? That's the real question.
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post #257 of 501
9/26/09 at 5:56am
This thread has gotten WAY off track.
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post #258 of 501
9/26/09 at 5:59am
Good luck with your Theta, BD.

Thanks,

Nick
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post #259 of 501
9/26/09 at 9:05am
Thread Starter 
Nick, I don't understand. You have a real nice Denon surround processor. Why not have a Denon universal player and use the Denon link for SACD and DVD-A instead of using the Sony player which is stereo analog out?

By using the Sony for SACD, does your Denon do a straight bypass of the analog, or does the Denon convert to digital and then back to analog?

Just seems that Denon touts their Denon link as superior performance, technically it makes sense, so why not do that?
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post #260 of 501
9/26/09 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Nick, I don't understand. You have a real nice Denon surround processor. Why not have a Denon universal player and use the Denon link for SACD and DVD-A instead of using the Sony player which is stereo analog out?

I can use the 5400ES single disc player for SACD via HDMI. But my system is built around DVD and CD multi-dics changers, controlled by an Escient interface, since I hate switching discs. And, for the most part, I don't even use the 5400ES player except ocasionally, relying there on the analog outputs of the Sony DVP-CX777ES (400 disc ES changer).

Quote:
By using the Sony for SACD, does your Denon do a straight bypass of the analog, or does the Denon convert to digital and then back to analog?

I can do either, but I permit the a/d conversion, and then d/a.

Quote:
Just seems that Denon touts their Denon link as superior performance, technically it makes sense, so why not do that?

It probably is a bit better to go straight via HDMI. But we're now talking the difference of how many angels dance on the head of a pin, and it's really not enough to make me abort my system preference, i.e., all media controlled by multi-disc changers, using an Escient interface as the control method.

I use a Crestron control system to control all the components, as it gets fairly complicated, particularly when you're daisy-chaining. I also have Zone 2activated, so that I can access either my music or DVD collection from elsewhere in the house. With 1500 DVDs, and about 1000 CDs (and another 200 SACDs), being able to pipe things out is important to me. As soon as the Escient is upgraded to be able to control the new Sony BD changer, I'll activate Zone 3 as well, as there's another place in the house I want to access the media from.

I've done numerous A/B tests over the years with single disc players to ES changers, and I've concluded that if I'm missing something going down my preferred route, it's miniscule, if it exists. That's particularly true since I use the digital output for audio going to my processor.

Now that Sony has recently released its long awaited BD changers, I can treat Blu-ray the same way I've been treating DVD and CD for the last seven years.

Thanks,

Nick
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post #261 of 501
9/26/09 at 10:46am
Steve, Take this for what it's worth as it's extremely subjective and unfortunately not always controlled circumstances. For SACD it always seems like the comparable Sony player sounds better. I've never found confirmation but it always seems like Sony kept the secret to the 'secret sauce' to themselves. This leads me to wonder if this had something to do with Theta dropping their program to create onboard SACD, DVD-A decoding for the CB III using a Theta proprietary link from players like the Compli. IIRC the old Compli has a port for such that went unused.

While certainly not a complete test the Denon 2900 player I had was less musically involving playing hybrid SACD's through the SS than the LPCM track through the Superior I DAC in the CB. I've came to similar conclusions listening to Sony vs the competition in other systems. I realize the 2900 was a notable underachiever in the analog realm and would have discounted it if I hadn't heard similar results elsewhere.

Sony keep secrets to themselves, couldn't be.
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post #262 of 501
9/26/09 at 8:26pm
What do the recent posts have to do with Cedia 2009: Theta digital news????

Stay focused people.
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post #263 of 501
9/27/09 at 11:53am
I have been using an Anthem D2v while waiting (hoping?) for a CBIII HDMI solution and find the ARC room correction very impressive. I think what is getting lost in the DAC discussion is how useful would room correction be if it was applied to a CBIII HDMI extreme DAC configuration? Based on my experience with room correction in general, this is something I personally would like to see Theta offer once the HDMI work is completed.

Since, 2002 I have owner a Dreadnaught II, CBIII (extreme DACS front, Superior rears), Carmen, Carmen II, and Compli. I have not found any products I like better and hope for Theta to become viable again.

I sold my CBIII right after Theta changed hands and it became apparent the HDMI promise looked dicey but would be willing to re-invest if the Theta processors were brought up to date and the company becomes more pro-active with customer communication.
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post #264 of 501
9/27/09 at 8:56pm
If we stick on the "Cedia news topic", we can close the Thread ! No news...

But we can also use this thread to help Theta owners to choose another AVP while waiting the HDMI card. Denon and Anthem D2V seem the best choice avalaible now. Has Anybody listen to both, or an opinion on their room correction ?
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post #265 of 501
9/28/09 at 2:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by autentic View Post

If we stick on the "Cedia news topic", we can close the Thread ! No news...

But we can also use this thread to help Theta owners to choose another AVP while waiting the HDMI card. Denon and Anthem D2V seem the best choice avalaible now. Has Anybody listen to both, or an opinion on their room correction ?

I am also curious to learn how ARC would fare against Audessey
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post #266 of 501
9/28/09 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

I am also curious to learn how ARC would fare against Audessey

Here's a clue: http://www.stereophile.com/musicinth...itr/index.html
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post #267 of 501
9/28/09 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by autentic View Post

If we stick on the "Cedia news topic", we can close the Thread ! No news...

But we can also use this thread to help Theta owners to choose another AVP while waiting the HDMI card. Denon and Anthem D2V seem the best choice avalaible now. Has Anybody listen to both, or an opinion on their room correction ?

I believe Audiman sold his Casablanca and bought the Anthem. I also believe that he posted that the Casablanca was better sounding. The Meridian 861 when or if it has an internal HDMI card would seem the logical choice for room correction. Everything else is in place. Theta got left behind a long time ago by ignoring a high-rez DVD-A interface and room correction. Meridian addressed both and now can utilized that work with HDMI.
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post #268 of 501
9/28/09 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Here's a clue: http://www.stereophile.com/musicinth...itr/index.html

great article. thanks for sharing. one question: does ARC offer competing technologies against dynamic EQ and volume?
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post #269 of 501
9/29/09 at 8:31am
Anthem plans to provide via software upgrade the "Dynamic volume".

Here's the thread on AVS about the comparison between Denon AVP and Anthem D2v.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1125722

I have not been able to find how many frequencies ARC and Audyssey can tune.
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post #270 of 501
10/16/09 at 7:01pm
Does anyone know if anything weird is going on with Theta? I called to get technical support, left a phone number and it was never returned. A few days later I finally reached someone and they said were at the ATI building and that the Theta people had not been moved to the ATI location yet. The only answer I could get to a question about a noise in my amplifier was to go to the web site, fill out an RA form and send it in to ATI. The person on the phone sounded like a temp employee who knew absolutely nothing about the product.

I need the amp fixed and unlike other companies, Theta does not provide schematics to anyone. This effectively negates going to a local repair shop. I then went to the web site, filled out the form and sent the Dreadnaught II to ATI. Today I was checking my package tracking and I was informed that ATI had refused to accept the amp and now FedEx has the status as "future delivery requested".

This whole saga with Theta has left me very uncomfortable. I was planning on looking at the Dreadnaught III and possibly a new processor if they get the HDMI squared away. Like many others, I am beginning to question the sanity of continuing to business with this company.
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