Official Harman Kardon AVR 1600/2600/3600 owner's thread - Page 89

That underlined sentence is the opposite of what I said. 2, 3 days ago when I played MC discs, the sub info was being redirected from the sub channel to the main channels. B/C the 3600 was setting the speaker output as large. Causing to have zero bass, until I connected speaker wires between the avr and the subs.

Well, yesterday I had those wires disconnected, as I was playing stereo sources, both vinyl and cd, thus getting BM. Then I inserted a DVD-A disc and changed to the MC input, and unlike before, I was getting bass through the subs. Which is what I wanted, as my mains are not full range. So that would mean that the 3600 was providing straight by-pass output. But I do not know what is different now, compared to a few days ago.

One point I have been trying to make, is that some info in the manual is wrong...which is not uncommon when the manual is written by someone who speaks English as a second language. Which I understand, as I live in Latin America having to speak Español as well as English.

Two statements in the 3600 manual:
The 6/8 Channel inputs are "direct" inputs whose signals are passed directly to the volume control w/o any bass management processing. That statement is true.

But then this next statement can not be true, in most cases:
Thus, the speakers are always full-range and can not be adjusted.

The only way both those statements can be true is IF the player's speaker menu is configured for full-range L/R mains and NO sub. Then the input matches the output.

IF the player's speaker menu is configured as "sub on" and a 100 htz XO to all other channels then the AVR HAS to send the signals just as stated, sub on and 100 htz XO, or its not true analog by-pass.
Edited by 4DHD - 12/5/12 at 6:54am

I've been thinking about buying a new AVR 2600 as I can get one for around $300. Do you guys think that this is still a great buy at that price or is it getting too old of a model to still go that route? Also, I've read a good portion of this thread and it seems there is some debate over power ratings as HK no longer rates as cponservatively as they used to as seen with the XX50 line and the new 700 and 1700. Would you say that the power in the 2600 falls under the conservative category? How much overhead is available in this amp? The Cnet review of the 2600 seemed to imply that Denon's 1900 series had notably more power but they don't show any lab benches. I ask because I have a large 6000 cubic foot space and I want the option for less efficient speakers whenever I upgrade those next. I am also considering refurbs of Denon 1712/1912/891, Onkyo NR609, Yamaha V571. I know the 2600 lacks some features, especially compared to the Onkyo, but for around the $300 mark would the 2600 be a better buy than any of those? I don't need networking/streaming, but do want 7.1 and hdmi 1.4a. I'm most interested in sound quality, adequate power, and long term reliability as I typically do not upgrade receivers very often. The Onkyo is cheaper than the HK (refubs have gone on sale for as low $230) but Onkyo seems to have issues with overheating and hdmi boards frying. The Yamaha is weaker on the power front, but Yamaha seems to be most reliable brand and the 571 can be had for a little bit less. The Denon 1912 lacks much in legacy connections. The Denon 891 looks great but is a tad more expensive even being refurbished.

IF the 2600 you might buy was manufactured this year, as was the 3600 I just bought a week ago (manufactured Jan. 2012), then it will have HDMI v1.4a.
All the xx00 series power ratings are as previous HK receivers.

In the case of the 3600, 85w for stereo output; 85w, all 7 channels driven for MC.
The 3650 states 110w stereo output; 110w MC output, 2 channels driven.
Of coarse, when playing MC, you don't care about power into only two channels, only power into all 7.

So I would say that 110w~stereo would probably be only about 70w~7 channels driven. So it would seem that the xx50 series has the lower power ratings similar to other brands. And the 3600's 85w is more like 120w, compared to other brands. I don't remember the power rating for the 2600.

The 2600 is rated at 65 watts/channel. So the XX00 series still rated ouput as all channels driven then? Would you say that the 2600 is a good buy at $300 still or should I look at the Denons for either a bit less (1712) or a little more (891)?

I have the 1600. It's in a 1650 cubic foot room with 5 NHT SZ2s. Small inefficient speakers. With movies I have plenty of volume and overhead. With music I could use a little more power. The 1600 was rated at 45 watts/channel.

Plus it never gets hot no matte how hard I run it.

Just to be clear, if I come off rude that is not my intent. I'm just trying to be clear in explaining this; I know it is, it can't work the other way around with the 6/8 channel input unless the AVR was internally shorted. In this case you would notice more than weak/no bass.
As I said in that quote;
"The AVR setting the speakers as large when using 6/8input is NOT redirecting bass from sub input to any speaker. It's just that the sub will ONLY play what is being supplied to the 6/8 sub input, and nothing else."



Try connecting an RCA cable from a stereo L or R output from any device directly to the 6/8 channel subwoofer input ONLY (all other 6/8 input jacks disconnected), and turn the AVR on to the 6/8 channel input. With the source playing - you hear content from the sub, correct?
Is there anything coming from any other channel, mains included?
If not, AVR is fine.

You can test each 6/8 channel input individually like this if you'd like. You should only hear content from channel input that is connected. Again, the speakers being set to large (which is only option) does NOT redirect any information from the sub input to the mains - or any other channel - when using the 6/8 channel. The 6/8 channel input is a straight in - straight out input, whatever is being supplied is what is being played from every channel. This is why the AVR sets all speaker channels as full range/large when using the 6/8 direct input.

Think of it this way, when using the 6/8 channel input the AVR is basically just a multichannel amplifier - except it also has a volume control.
There are plenty of errors in HK manuals. However, both those statements in the manual are always true. The manual is stating that the AVR speaker crossover SETTING for ALL speaker channels will be large/full range.The speakers will be supplied the full range of whatever information is sent to their channel input. It would not be a "direct" input if it were any other way.
Like I said before, it is up to the player/source device to handle bass management when using the 6/8 input.

Just because the speakers are large/full range does not mean the AVR is going to generate a true full frequency range signal for them by stealing content from the sub channel. Once again, full range/LARGE does not mean content from the sub input is or can be directed to the mains or any other channel. It just means no bass management, whatever is sent in to each channel is what is sent out of that channel - nothing more and nothing less.
Yes. The AVR is simply amplifying whatever is sent to it (and with the sub, just passing it through to sub out)

But again, your are relying on your player to actually take care of this / applying the crossovers. Your player may allow you to set a 100hz crossover for each channel, but is it actually redirecting the information from each channel to it's sub output - or just tossing it? This is not uncommon.




I think your problem is with both your source device / it's bass management, and the source content you are using.
You had bass through the subs when using a DVD-A disc as it was multichannel, probably 5.1 - so it had a .1/LFE track. The mix obviously made good use of the sub. This was being sent right to the sub as it should.

If you are listening to multichannel content without a .1/LFE track, and/or the mix does not make much use of the sub and is keeping the low frequency content in the speaker channels - you are completely relying on the bass management of your player to send all the information below the speakers crossovers set in the player to it's sub output. If it does not, guess what, no bass.


Does your player have a digital output? Use, it. Then you can let the AVR handle bass management as your player does not seem to be doing it right. You can still leave the tone, DV, EQ and overlay surround modes off if you want a 'pure' listening experience. You will be using the AVR's DACs instead of the player.

The x600 series are NOT rated in the traditional HK "all channels driven continuously" manner
HK stopped rating it's US models in this fashion with the AVR 354 and models newer. The 354, x550HDs, x600s, x650s, x700 as well as the AVR 700 and 1565 are all rated with two channels driven. Any multichannel power specs are provided with 2 channels being driven.

The newest models stray even further, no longer a "continuously driven" spec and ratings taken at higher distortion. On the newest low-end models like the 700, 1565, and 1700 the rating is not 20hz-20khz instead only at 1khz to get higher numbers. The AVR 700 is rated into 6ohms vs 8.

Thanks for the info. So what is your take on the AVR 2600 vs the Denon 1712 or 891? I've definitely narrowed it down to those three.

Lets clarify for the record...
For many, many generations, Harman/Kardon rated their multi-channel AVRs with all channels driven, full bandwidth into 8 Ohms.
But in 2009, the corporation changed...

• Dr.Harman retired
• New marketing team hired
• USA AVR product team terminated
• New China AVR team hired
• Revised product philosophy
• Multiple distribution channels changes

The last HK AVR to be rated in the traditional sense was the 7550HD (USA) & 760 (Euro) and was rated @ 85W x 7 or 100W x 2 into 8 Ohms.
Next....
The new marketing team kicked in and the 7550HD went to 110W x 7...... : :
And as the competitive/market pressures increased...
The next HK AVR lineup appeared with new published output specs significantly higher then their previous models and weighing
about 25% less...


Just my $0.02...

So did the X600 series come out with the old marketing team or the new one? I know X650 came out under the new one, but the X600 was released in 2009 and would have been developed before the switch. Release date of 7550 and X600 series is about the same. This spec page for the 2600 seems to indicate that the power is rated with all channels driven, not that HK is consistent in their published specs:
http://www.harmanaudio.com/Search_Browse/productspecs.asp?product=AVR 2600
Edited by bargugl - 12/5/12 at 12:59pm

How are these two statements any different...they are saying the same thing. So I told you something and then you disagree by saying the exact same thing!
If one uses the coax out, then it is no longer true DVD-A...its a down mix to stereo. If I am getting bass through the subs, then the dvd player is doing it right.

I never said that the AVR was sending LF from the mains to the sub. I said there was no bass content coming from the sub, the first day, until I jumpered the AVR's L/R binding posts to the two sub speaker line inputs.

I found this statement on Wikipedia:
The LFE channel is actually full range, and can be recorded at the same resolution as the other channels. This permits it to be used instead as an extra main channel, for example as a "height" speaker above the listening position; this has been done on some releases. Such usage is non-standard, and will often require special set-up by the end-user.

With the above statement, I'll have to admit I forgot how DVD-A works. I had this system in storage for a year as I was moving to SA. And I did not pack an AVR (gave it to my daughter), only the P7 pre-amp, amps, speakers, TT, DVD-A
So for most MC systems (not full range speakers) the lower end of those full range channels will be lost, w/o connecting the L/R speaker outs to the sub's speaker line in. Which is what I had done...So then maybe what was coming through the sub channel was some bass and the LFE.
Edited by 4DHD - 12/5/12 at 1:48pm

I wasn't disagreeing with that, you are only quoting part of my reply, and only part of your quote that I was replying to. Seems like we are going in circles now lol. I was explaining why what you said and I quoted in bold earlier; ....which you were referring to earlier as "reverse bass management" is simply not possible by the AVR. You were and possibly still are thinking the AVR setting the speakers as "large" when using 6/8 direct had some impact on the sub input+output, which as explained in detail does not.
Post #2647 explained this pretty thoroughly.

I'm not very familiar with DVD-A - but getting bass through the sub does not necessarily mean the dvd player is doing it right. The player will always send any content within the source content LFE track through the sub, so of course you will hear that. But that doesn't mean the player is actually applying bass management, redirecting the sub-crossover LF content contained within the speaker channels to the sub as it should be. There may also be some formats the player is incapable of applying BM to either by performance limitations or bugs.
It would be a good idea for you to run a test tone disc through the player to see what it is actually doing.

I'm well aware that you never said LF from mains to sub, but you have been saying the opposite - content from sub input redirected to mains by the HK AVR. My responses were trying to explain that neither is possible with the 6/8 direct on the AVR, the sub problems you are experiencing are from the source player and not the AVR
.
Nothing has to be lost, and no extra connections should be made/needed, if the player has bass management that works and is configured properly - sending the information contained below the crossover points set in the player's speaker setup settings to it's subwoofer output in addition to any content within the LFE track, when applicable.

With everything connected the "normal" way and all settings configured properly, you should have had normal operation/performance the first time you tried it and with any format. No fiddling. But you did not, and since you are using the AVR's 6/8 direct analog input you instantly have ruled out the AVR as the problem as these inputs are untouched - bottom line these problems lie with the source device, not the AVR.
Unfortunately, the "bass management" found in most players is limited and lackluster (especially compared to the rather nice quadruple crossover found on the HK AVR). Several just don't work right, period.
I would try a test tone disc so you know exactly what is happening.

I went ahead and bought the 2600. Worldwide stereo is selling new ones for $299 shipped via their Newegg storefront and I couldn't resist any longer. By the way I found the service manuals for both the 2600 and 3600 and they still list it as 65 watts and 80 watts for all the channels. More interesting is that I found out that the Europe 230v versions are sold as the AVR 360 for the 2600 and AVR 460 for the 3600 as confirmed by looking at the block diagram in the service manual. In looking at the European owners manual, they have the power being listed as 70 watts 2 channel, 55 watts all channels for the 2600(360) and 80 watts two channel, 60 watts all channel for the 3600(460). The 70/55 rating would be the same as the older 340/347 models. The 340 benchmarked exceptionally well in lab tests (pushing more than 100 watts 2-channel and 70 watts 7 channel at 0.1% THD, 8-ohm) so I wonder how close the 2600 would be to those ratings. I realize that they revamped quite a bit in the design between the 2600 and 340 though.

What I like about the 3600 over the other last 8 HK units is it has pre-outs. Which allows two things: connect my Parasound P7 analog pre-amp and the 220w power amp.
I don't really need 220wpc, but at low volume, up to 15~22w, its pure Class A amp. And I like pure analog stereo the P7 provides. And then being HK, I get L7, which I prefer over DPLii, DTS neo-6, for when I want to listen to matrix MCM.

My 2600 just arrived. Haven't got a chance to hook it up yet, but I must say that it does look much better in person than it does in pictures. I thought the pictures looked kind of ugly, but in person, it looks pretty slick. The metal for the case is kind of flimsy, but peering through the top, that heat sink looks massive. Manufacturing date was March 2012. I knew they were still making them at the beginning of the year, but I wonder if they have now stopped or not. 3 years is a long time for a receiver model. Probably won't have time to set-up until the weekend.

Hi, I've been browsing through the forum thread, and have not seen this addressed. It's probably a dumb question, but how do I access the 6/8 input source? It's not a source button on top of the remote and when I'm in the set-up menu, I don't see it (this is the only on-screen menu, correct?). In fact how do you access any of the analog sources, in case I plug in my old CD player, for example?

thanks!

Check page 30 of the Operation Manual..
Behind each source button is the ability to set the appropriate audio and video inputs in the OSD menu system..
For example to use 6/8 Channel Direct, select DVD use the arrows and select 6/8 Channel...
Once each source button is programmed with the target audio and video inputs configured the AVR will remember this.
Though a little cumbersome to program initially, once done selecting sources is qwik & EZ..
Plus being flexible/compatible for a wide range source components.


Just my $0.02...

M-Code,

what do you know about the upcoming 3700/370 (US/EU) flagship? Date, price, internals eg scaling, amp etc?

FYI I already found the manuals online: http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/AVR2700_3700_OM_EN.pdf

The 2700/270/3700/370 are based on the same AVR chassis/tooling HK has used for the last 4 generations. They are using the SMPS (switch mode power supply) power supply design as used in the 1700/170 saves weight, cost and provides multi-voltage capability. The HK is using the new Silicon image HDMI Tx/Rx chip that has dual outputs and pass-through, the USB, network and iDevice capability is supported by the SMSC/BridgeCo chip 1st used in the 7550HD/760/660.
The 2700/3700 will ship in mid-January to be introduced @ WCES 2013......

Overall the AVRs should be good value and deliver good performance. Note that they continue to use the 2-channel driven power output spec into 6/8 Ohms to get the highest publishable numbers.

Just my $0.02..

Got my 2600 hooked up. So far so good. A couple of times I had cut the hdmi signal to the receiver as I was messing around with set-ups and when it was then restarted, the picture outputted was green with a whole bunch of after image artifacting. I had to turn the receiver off and then back on again to resolve it. The situations that created the problem are pretty rare so I don't think there will be a problem. In regards to the EZset/EQ process. The EZset part of the process isn't great so I had to manually redo some of those settings. However, the EQ part seemed to do rather well. I didn't have an automated eq on my previous receiver and the manual eq on it wouldn't touch the subwoofer and wouldn't go below 100 hz. The EQ in the H/K did a good job of taming some bass issues in my space. Dolby Volume seems to work well so far. The medium setting seems to be the sweet spot for most stuff. On max, dialogue becomes harder to hear for some reason.

Out of curiosity, how hot does the receiver need to be before the fans engage? I don't think mine have engaged once yet, not that I'm sitting there staring at them the whole time. I haven't really pushed the system yet. I redid my set-up so the H/K sits in an open space (its nice enough looking to do that with) so no ventilation issue and I have yet to turn up higher than -18db. I just sort of want to know that they will engage at some point.

If the 3700 lists for more the $600 it won't sell at all.

The internal temperature fan sensor is set to turn ON @ 72 degrees C which is about 161 degrees F. Make sure to have at least 4-5" of free-air clearance for the L/R sides and top cover for adequate ventilation....

Just my $0.02...

It sits completely open on top of the rack/media center so nothing at all around sides or top (maybe I won't ever see the fans run). The satellite receiver used to be there, but the H/K looks so good, I moved the sat receiver to the rack and put the H/K there. Wife agreed that it looks a ton better having it there rather than the dish box and I won't ever have to worry about ventilation now. Also makes it easier to access the back for connection purposes. A WAF issue that actually worked in my favor. That's a rarity.

Great thanks! I was in the right area, I didn't scroll down far enough with all the input options. By the way, love the sound of the 3600 and really like the Logic 7 Music mode for music from my AppleTV unit.

Sounds reasonable, thank you. Here's the info from the PDF:

So how much is it in real numbers? OTOH it's a first floor living room of a brownstone here, a rather small room and I'm running a 7.1 Infinity Primus setup (2x full-range P363 tower, PC250 center, 4x P150 + a PS312 sub) so I'm pretty sure it'd be more than enough for me...


Also I know 3700/370 is running a Faroudja DCDi Cinema scaler... can you point me to somewhere to get any details about it? ST's site is a mess, I cannot figure out which SoC is it, much less finding specs & docs: http://www.st.com/internet/imag_video/family/128.jsp

Why would you say that? According to the PDF it has everything comparable flagship units have... yes, it has "only" 7 HDMI ins but all are v1.4 (4Kx2K), it's a real 7.1 (or Zone2, second remote included) AMP w/ 2 subs, got Dolby Volume (equals or better than Audyssey's Dynamic Volume and EQ), got Dolby's PLIIz (=Audyssey DSX), EZset/EQ, while it's not the top of the line it's still decent and includes bass management + plus like all HK it comes with its own magic sauce like Logic 7 matrix modes (far the best for music), distinctive sound and fair amount of extras like decent smart, backlit remotes, pretty GUI, mobile apps etc.
I agree that the competition is pretty serious - eg Sony's excellent new 2800ES comes at $999 with a bunch of extras - so that HK needs to keep 3700 well bewlo $1k but I would say $700 is still a reasonable price if it ships bug-free - and knowing HK that's a big IF, right there.

I have to think the 2700 and 3700 are the new years model replacing the 2650 and 3650 (and the 2600 and the 3600 which they have been producing forever). Because of that they will probably follow the same MSRP pricing of $879 and $1099 respectively. However, they probably won't sell them at that price. The 1700 has an MSRP of $599, yet regular price before sales is $499 and it seems it is frequently on sale at $299. We'll probably be looking at sales prices of $500-600 for the 2700 and about $800 for the 3700.

$1099 for the 3700 will be ridiculous, I agree - aside of having same or better features Sony's new 2800ES comes with 10 HDMI, a 4-port gigabit switch and full Control4 automation support, not to mention its own magic sauce everywhere, at $999 MSRP... BTW I just checked and 1700 is listed for $399 on Amazon, by multiple sellers - if you're right and that's the trend then we should see 3700 around $700 which is coincidentally the maximum I'd pay for it (again, bug-free.)