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Official Harman Kardon AVR 1600/2600/3600 owner's thread - Page 90

post #2671 of 2821
PS: huh, seems your prediction will be right, it's already up for preorder in Germany for €999: http://www.amazon.de/AVR-370-Receiver-HDMI-Anschl%C3%BCssen-Internet-Radio/dp/B008ZBP3W6/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1355935301&sr=8-6
post #2672 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Why would you say that? According to the PDF it has everything comparable flagship units have... yes, it has "only" 7 HDMI ins but all are v1.4 (4Kx2K), it's a real 7.1 (or Zone2, second remote included) AMP w/ 2 subs, got Dolby Volume (equals or better than Audyssey's Dynamic Volume and EQ), got Dolby's PLIIz (=Audyssey DSX), EZset/EQ, while it's not the top of the line it's still decent and includes bass management + plus like all HK it comes with its own magic sauce like Logic 7 matrix modes (far the best for music), distinctive sound and fair amount of extras like decent smart, backlit remotes, pretty GUI, mobile apps etc.
I agree that the competition is pretty serious - eg Sony's excellent new 2800ES comes at $999 with a bunch of extras - so that HK needs to keep 3700 well bewlo $1k but I would say $700 is still a reasonable price if it ships bug-free - and knowing HK that's a big IF, right there.

IMHO...
The weakest points of the 2700/270/3700/370 are:
A. Room EQ S/W
HK needs to port over from TI the exceptional S/W developed by Dr.Toole as used in some of the higher end JBL Synthesis components
B. Logic 7
HK needs to upgrade the stereo analog/PCM driven Logic 7 to the full process Logic 7, that can overlay Dolby True Audio and DTS Master Audio. Plus add post-processing of 5.1 > 7.1
C. Remote Control
HK needs to update their remote controls, they have used the same tooling for 10 years

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
post #2673 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

IMHO...
The weakest points of the 2700/270/3700/370 are:
A. Room EQ S/W
HK needs to port over from TI the exceptional S/W developed by Dr.Toole as used in some of the higher end JBL Synthesis components

What is it they run in this one? Is it part of the ST platform or some Cirrus chipset...?
Porting is not necessary an easy task, they might just replace the current solution with the TI-based one (shouldn't matter much as far as cost goes.)

But first thing first: what's the difference between EZset/EQ in AVRs and that JOBL-only thing?

I don't doubt the validity of this request, it's just not much of a concern for me personally (small, busy room, no way to make it much better anyway.)
Quote:
B. Logic 7
HK needs to upgrade the stereo analog/PCM driven Logic 7 to the full process Logic 7, that can overlay Dolby True Audio and DTS Master Audio. Plus add post-processing of 5.1 > 7.1

I thought Logic can already do 5.1->7.1...? That being said I am only interested in stereo->5.1/7.1, I don't molest my multichannel signals anyway so it's a moot point for me.
Quote:

C. Remote Control
HK needs to update their remote controls, they have used the same tooling for 10 years
Just my $0.02... wink.gif

What's wrong with it? Most people use a dedicated Harmony or similar solution so I'm not sure if it worth the trouble...

PS: Any chance you can answer my question above about the 4K scaler platform (STmicro?) in the 3700? smile.gif Here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1178816/official-harman-kardon-avr-1600-2600-3600-owners-thread/2670#post_22712758
post #2674 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufatu View Post

There a big differences between the video features of the 1600 and the higher models:


1600:
Video DSP Section: Cross-conversion via component to HDMI (all input to HDMI for the AVR 2600 and AVR3600)


2600 and higher:
Video DSP Section: Faroudja® Torino video scaler/enhancer, upconverts to from composite to component video or HDMI, upconverts to 720P, 1080i through component or up to 1080p through HDMI. Menu system rendered directly in HD up to 1080p

A lot of this is still new to me and I'm trying to learn/understand these things, but could someone explain cross-conversion via component to HMDI (for the 1600)?

If I understand this correctly the 1600 converts component video to HDMI, and the 2600/3600 converts component and composite to HDMI?
post #2675 of 2821
One more question - does anyone know if the 1600 can overlay the OSD over HDMI video? Or can it only be displayed over analog video? I'm not referring to the full screen OSD, but rather the small two line display with volume info.
post #2676 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doogals View Post

One more question - does anyone know if the 1600 can overlay the OSD over HDMI video? Or can it only be displayed over analog video? I'm not referring to the full screen OSD, but rather the small two line display with volume info.

No it cannot. The OSD interrupts the current video feed.

Also it doesn't really convert component to HDMI but rather just passes it through to HDMI in its native format. So 720P in via component is 720p out through HDMI.
post #2677 of 2821
I have not seen up close many comparisons, but to me the video up scaling on the 2600 is not that great. I of course always go for HD content when possible, but the scaling stretches faces pretty bad. If up scaling were important to me I would look at other brands.
post #2678 of 2821
Has anyone set up the 2600 for a bi-amp? I cannot find a setting that would allow me to use the 2nd zone outs for anything else, That is a lot of wasted power.
post #2679 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdHerd View Post

Has anyone set up the 2600 for a bi-amp? I cannot find a setting that would allow me to use the 2nd zone outs for anything else, That is a lot of wasted power.
Passive bi-amping is a waste of effort. Only active bi-amping is effective.
post #2680 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Passive bi-amping is a waste of effort. Only active bi-amping is effective.


yes, perhaps I misunderstood the concept. I thought active would mean I utilize two powered outputs per speaker. So in theory my 2600, if set up for 5.1 should have two unused outputs that can be assigned to the fronts
post #2681 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

The 2700/270/3700/370 are based on the same AVR chassis/tooling HK has used for the last 4 generations. They are using the SMPS (switch mode power supply) power supply design as used in the 1700/170 saves weight, cost and provides multi-voltage capability. The HK is using the new Silicon image HDMI Tx/Rx chip that has dual outputs and pass-through, the USB, network and iDevice capability is supported by the SMSC/BridgeCo chip 1st used in the 7550HD/760/660.
The 2700/3700 will ship in mid-January to be introduced @ WCES 2013......
Overall the AVRs should be good value and deliver good performance. Note that they continue to use the 2-channel driven power output spec into 6/8 Ohms to get the highest publishable numbers.
Just my $0.02.. wink.gif

Look what I just found:
Code:
Audio Specifications and Features
Stereo Power    100 watts/ch, 20Hz – 20kHz,
Multichannel Power (all channels driven)        100 watts/ch, 20Hz – 20kHz,
High Instantaneous Current Capability   35 Amps
Signal-to-noise Ratio (IHF-A)   100 dB
Slew Rate        40V/μsec
Input Sensitivity/Impedance     200mV/47k ohms

AVR 270 (EU version of 2700): http://eu.harmankardon.com/harman-kardon-product-detail-eu/avr-270v2.html
post #2682 of 2821
simple question on my 2600,

is there a way to add source selections? I want to add a source for phono, but all I could figure out was that I could alter an existing source. I changed the name of cable/sat and set it up how I need it, but I would prefer to add a whole source selection.
post #2683 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdHerd View Post

simple question on my 2600,
is there a way to add source selections? I want to add a source for phono, but all I could figure out was that I could alter an existing source. I changed the name of cable/sat and set it up how I need it, but I would prefer to add a whole source selection.

You can not add to the buttons on the remote, only change their on screen names. Which is what I've done for almost every button on my 3600 remote. When you change the source name, assign the input for that source, there is nothing else to do.
post #2684 of 2821
Hey guys. I just got my AVR-3600 a week ago and I'm very happy with it. Great sound!

Would like some help from some of you more experienced fellows out there regarding my speaker configuration.

I have a 5.1 system, consisting of the following:

L+R: Polk Audio TSI400 - According to PA specs, they go as low as 34Hz. It has three 5.25" drivers.
Center: Polk Audio CS10 - According to PA specs, it can go as low as 53Hz. It has two 5.25" drivers.
Surrounds: Polk Audio TSI100 - According to PA specs, they go as low as 53Hz. Single 5.25" driver.
Sub: BIC America F12. 12"

I set the crossover setting manually on my receiver, and set them all to 80Hz. On my sub, I set the volume to halfway and the crossover knob to 80Hz. As far as I know, there is no way of adjusting the Subwoofer crossover directly on the receiver.

Are these settings okay? To me it sounds great, but my crossover settings may be wrong. All speakers have 5.25" drivers, so they're not very big or capable of deep bass.
post #2685 of 2821
Quote:
I set the crossover setting manually on my receiver, and set them all to 80Hz. On my sub, I set the volume to halfway and the crossover knob to 80Hz. As far as I know, there is no way of adjusting the Subwoofer crossover directly on the receiver.

If I am reading this right, you have two XOs in the sub line. The AVR is providing the 80 Hz XO. If your sub has a crossover/LFE switch then set it to LFE. Or if there are two inputs, one labeled crossover and the other LFE, then connect the AVR sub out to the LFE input. If there is only one coax input, then turn the sub's XO all the way up to its highest frequency.
post #2686 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

If I am reading this right, you have two XOs in the sub line. The AVR is providing the 80 Hz XO. If your sub has a crossover/LFE switch then set it to LFE. Or if there are two inputs, one labeled crossover and the other LFE, then connect the AVR sub out to the LFE input. If there is only one coax input, then turn the sub's XO all the way up to its highest frequency.

Thanks for helping and sorry if what I'm about to say doesn't make sense, I'm still learning all this.

My sub has two inputs: Speaker level inputs (for when the receiver has no Sub Out) and Sub in (single RCA connector). My sub is connected via the latter to the Subwoofer pre-out output on my receiver.

The sub, however, does have 2 switches that interact with the crossover setting. One is Digital receiver and the other is ProLogic receiver. When set to digital, the crossover knob on the sub becomes inactive and does nothing to the signal. When set to Prologic receiver the knob becomes active.

So, I think this is the important part. The AVR-3600 does not appear to have the ability of setting the crossover for the subwoofer, you can only set the crossover for the speakers, so what I did is set all my speaker's crossover to 80Hz, switching my Subwoofer source type to Prologic (so the crossover knob on the sub becomes active) and set the crossover knob to 80Hz.

I hope this makes things clearer. I'm still a beginner.
post #2687 of 2821
Quote:
So, I think this is the important part. The AVR-3600 does not appear to have the ability of setting the crossover for the subwoofer, you can only set the crossover for the speakers, so what I did is set all my speaker's crossover to 80Hz,

According to the manual the 3600 always set the sub to 100 hz. If that is right, that's different from my old HK 635.
So therefore you do not need to use the PL setting on the sub. Use the digital input.

It also says that when you set the sub size it sets the EQ for that size sub.

I forgot I did not even have to set the sub XO, when I did the manual setup, until I looked at the manual just now. But I did have the sub sub to 15".
post #2688 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

According to the manual the 3600 always set the sub to 100 hz. If that is right, that's different from my old HK 635.
So therefore you do not need to use the PL setting on the sub. Use the digital input.
It also says that when you set the sub size it sets the EQ for that size sub.
I forgot I did not even have to set the sub XO, when I did the manual setup, until I looked at the manual just now. But I did have the sub sub to 15".

You're right, I missed that... it does say it sets it at 100Hz.

Great, thanks for the help, man. smile.gif
post #2689 of 2821
FWIW while 3700 isn't 2700 is already available direct from H/K: http://www.harmankardon.com/estore/hk/us/products/AVR-2700/AVR%202700_HK_US?skuId=AVR%202700_HK_US&searchMode=regularProductOnly

According to their (270/2700/370/3700) manual that 100Hz is a simple factory default XO freq, in manual mode you can still set whatever you want to set:
Quote:
Step One – Determine Your Speakers’ Crossover Frequencies
Without using the EzSet/EQ process, the AVR can’t detect how many speakers you’ve connected to it; nor can it determine their capabilities. Consult the technical specifications for all of your speakers and locate the frequency response, usually given as a range, e.g., 100Hz – 20kHz (±3dB). Write down the lowest frequency that each of your speakers is capable of playing (100Hz in the above example) as the crossover in Table A3 in the Appendix. NOTE: This is not the same as the crossover frequency listed in the speaker’s specifications.
For the subwoofer, write down the transducer size. The AVR’s bass management determines which speakers will be used to play back the low-frequency (bass) portion of the source program. Sending the lowest notes to small satellite speakers will result in bad sound and may even damage the speakers. The highest notes may not be heard at all through the subwoofer.
With proper bass management, the AVR divides the source signal at a crossover point. All information above that crossover point is played through your system’s speakers, and all information below the crossover point is played through the subwoofer. This way, each loudspeaker in your system will perform at its best, delivering a more powerful and enjoyable sound experience.
Quote:
Crossover (Size)
After you return to the Speaker Setup menu, navigate to the Crossover (Size) line and press the OK button to display the Adjust Crossover Frequencies menu.

The AVR will display only those speaker groups you set to On in the Number of Speakers menu.

Refer to Table A3 to see the crossover frequencies that you wrote down for your speakers.

For each speaker group, select one of these eight crossover frequencies: Large, 40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz, 150Hz or 200Hz. If the speaker’s crossover frequency is below 40Hz, select the first option, “Large.” This setting doesn’t refer to the speaker’s physical size but to its frequency response, which is also called “full range.” We recommend that you set the Subwoofer Crossover Frequency to the same frequency you used for the Front Left & Right speaker setting. If you set the Front Left & Right speakers to “Large”, we recommend that you experiment with different Subwoofer Crossover Frequency settings to find the one that produces the best blend between the subwoofer and Front Left & Right speakers with your system in your room.

Write down the settings in Table A6 in the Appendix.

When you have finished entering the settings, select Back or press the Back/Exit button.

Sub Mode
Move the cursor to the Sub Mode line. This setting depends upon the Crossover setting you selected for the front left and right speakers.

• If you set the front speakers to a numeric crossover frequency, the subwoofer setting will always be SUB. All low-frequency information will always be sent to the subwoofer. If you don’t have a subwoofer, either upgrade to full-range front left and right speakers or add a subwoofer at the earliest opportunity.

• If you set the front speakers to LARGE, select one of the three following settings for the subwoofer:
L/R+LFE: This setting sends all low-frequency information to the subwoofer, including
a) information that would normally be played through the front left and right speakers and
b) the special low-frequency effects (LFE) channel information.
OFF: Select this setting when no subwoofer is in use. All low-frequency information will be sent to the front left and right speakers.
LFE: This setting plays low-frequency information contained in the left and right program channels through the front left and right speakers, and directs only the LFE-channel information to the subwoofer.

All this seems to me business as usual...
post #2690 of 2821
^^^^^^That is the same write as in the 3600 manual. I assumed as I set my fronts to 60 and the center/surrounds to 80 then the sub was at 80. But then I saw the 100 htz sub notation in the manual, which did not seem right to me, considering how the sub XO could be adjusted in my old 635. So then I was not sure if the sub was @ 80 or 100.
post #2691 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

^^^^^^That is the same write as in the 3600 manual. I assumed as I set my fronts to 60 and the center/surrounds to 80 then the sub was at 80. But then I saw the 100 htz sub notation in the manual, which did not seem right to me, considering how the sub XO could be adjusted in my old 635. So then I was not sure if the sub was @ 80 or 100.

It sets the LFE channel bass crossover frequency prior to the summation of signal to the sub. So in effect you are limiting everything over 100hz in the LFE (.1) channel and then adding your low end from the rest of your speakers into the signal. So you can keep whatever settings you want on them without losing sound. There are four ad converters for this, and they feed the signal to a processor which sums the signal to go out to the sub. This is of course all pre amplification stage processing.

there is a signal chart in this document:

http://www.3dsi.co.za/HarmanKardon/AdvancedFeatures/WhitePapers/TECH%20SHEET%20TRIPLE%20AND%20QUAD%20CROSSOVER.pdf
post #2692 of 2821
^^^^The LFE is totally independent of the XO point between the mains and the sub frequencies. In the old 635, the LFE was set @120 hz. So now they have changed that to 100 hz.

The 630 dates back to 2004. As if HK is still applying the same BM in 6~8 channel is the question.
The 3600 manual seems to say different. I do get some bass from the avr's .1
Edited by 4DHD - 1/6/13 at 6:47am
post #2693 of 2821
yes that was directly about an older receiver, but I find it hard to believe they changed the quad crossover system that much from that gen to the next. Still, It shouldn't make a whole lot of change from 120 to 100, those frequencies are played through even modest surrounds or bookshelves without issue. It would keep your sub from working harder to keep with what has become an ever increasing load.

however, the LFE is only independent at a certain point in the processing. The subwoofer load is a summed conglomerate of LFE + crossed over frequencies from all other channels. That is the foundation of good bass management. It would be nice to have the tools to measure this, perhaps someday I will have a good electronics shop....

http://www.avsforum.com/t/748147/lfe-subwoofers-and-interconnects-explained
Edited by 3rdHerd - 1/6/13 at 7:52am
post #2694 of 2821
post #2695 of 2821
Now that I've used the receiver (3600) for a few days and read more of this topic...

1- I too have experienced the loud popping noise coming from all speakers when first turning the receiver on. Like many have reported it doesn't happen every time (in fact I'd estimate maybe 20-25% of the time). The workaround I've found is simple. I turned on default volume and set it at -45. If you're listening to music really loud and you turn off your receiver without it turned on, the next time you turn it on your speakers willl pop really loud (if they do pop at all) but not with a low(ish) default volume. Fortunately, this is a feature that I'd use even without this problem, so it isn't too much of a nuisance for me.

2- Sound not starting immediately after starting video or sound playback... mildly annoying, especially when listening to music since you won't hear the first couple of seconds of sound. No fix.

I am however, having a problem with Dolby Volume. Whenever I turn it on, be it low, medium or high, I get random beeps on my right surround speaker throughout playback. Depending on the receiver's volume setting the beep can hurt our ears. So far this has happened on HDMI from my PS3, optical from my DVD and optical from HD TV broadcasts. Time intervals vary, from once every 2 minutes to once every 10 minutes. If I turn off DV I get no beeps at all.

I've seen it mentioned in the topic before, but I haven't seen solutions or workarounds. Anything I can do?
post #2696 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coxis View Post

Now that I've used the receiver (3600) for a few days and read more of this topic...
1- I too have experienced the loud popping noise coming from all speakers when first turning the receiver on. Like many have reported it doesn't happen every time (in fact I'd estimate maybe 20-25% of the time). The workaround I've found is simple. I turned on default volume and set it at -45. If you're listening to music really loud and you turn off your receiver without it turned on, the next time you turn it on your speakers willl pop really loud (if they do pop at all) but not with a low(ish) default volume. Fortunately, this is a feature that I'd use even without this problem, so it isn't too much of a nuisance for me.
2- Sound not starting immediately after starting video or sound playback... mildly annoying, especially when listening to music since you won't hear the first couple of seconds of sound. No fix.
I am however, having a problem with Dolby Volume. Whenever I turn it on, be it low, medium or high, I get random beeps on my right surround speaker throughout playback. Depending on the receiver's volume setting the beep can hurt our ears. So far this has happened on HDMI from my PS3, optical from my DVD and optical from HD TV broadcasts. Time intervals vary, from once every 2 minutes to once every 10 minutes. If I turn off DV I get no beeps at all.
I've seen it mentioned in the topic before, but I haven't seen solutions or workarounds. Anything I can do?

How do you set a default volume?
post #2697 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by reisb View Post

How do you set a default volume?
Press the SETUP button and rotate through to System Setting , press OK, then continue to v default, then press OK.
then press down to v default, set the -db to whatever # you want.
Then continue to rotate down until you get to Dolby Volume Calibration. This is where you set the db# to the difference of your speakers rating from the default of 88db. In my case I have 3db as my speakers are 91db.
post #2698 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Press the SETUP button and rotate through to System Setting , press OK, then continue to v default, then press OK.
then press down to v default, set the -db to whatever # you want.
Then continue to rotate down until you get to Dolby Volume Calibration. This is where you set the db# to the difference of your speakers rating from the default of 88db. In my case I have 3db as my speakers are 91db.

Correct, although I did not mess with any DV settings since I don't use it, due to the aforementioned issue I'm having. I only set the default volume for the regular volume.
post #2699 of 2821
What surround mode you guys prefer on yours X600 series ?

I hear lots of people loving Logic 7 (especially for music) but I find it almost mono sounding, so music doesn't sound worth
of crap through it.
I had my receiver for a year, but had it upstairs in living room until last weekend when I finally finished my theater room
in the basement. I have some no name budget Pioneer speaker setup but that shouldn't be reason of such centered
sound in Logic7.
I set everything running through Neo6 which I prefer.
post #2700 of 2821
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkesha View Post

What surround mode you guys prefer on yours X600 series ?

I hear lots of people loving Logic 7 (especially for music) but I find it almost mono sounding, so music doesn't sound worth
of crap through it.
I had my receiver for a year, but had it upstairs in living room until last weekend when I finally finished my theater room
in the basement. I have some no name budget Pioneer speaker setup but that shouldn't be reason of such centered
sound in Logic7.
I set everything running through Neo6 which I prefer.

for analog sources I use 5ch stereo or stereo. for TV/Movies that do not run dolby digital I usually use dolby pro log II, but sometimes dolby pro log music. I do like logic 7 as a surround mode for music but I prefer the output of 5 channel more. I don't understand why people want surround for music. to me it just breaks up the experience in an un-natural way and ruins it. Perhaps because I don't listen to electronic music. I do occasionally put classical on a surround mode, but music is always played in front of you, not surrounding you like you would want in a movie. To my ear, logic 7 movie is flat compared to dolby.
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