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Struggling to get good center channel performance

post #1 of 41
9/13/09 at 11:59am
Thread Starter 
I'm reaching my wit's-end with tinkering and adjustment on this problem. There's something I'm flat-out missing, or that I'm not even thinking to try or look at.

Problem is that dialogue in movies and TV just isn't very easy to understand. I find myself turning the volume way up to hear people talk, but then all the background sounds and effects are deafening. I've re-run Audyssey several times and followed the FAQs to the letter while doing it. Following calibration I've tried boosting the center channel levels by several dB but am still not satisfied.

The speaker is a Polk CSi25. It's not super-expensive, but I feel like it should be more than able to handle this. It sits directly beneath my TV, maybe at about knee-level. I cannot place it above the TV, unfortunately.

The problem is apparent on just about any source material.
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post #2 of 41
9/13/09 at 12:22pm
GSRGuy,

Perhaps the center speaker is shot. Do you have another speaker to use in its place for testing purposes? If not, take one of your fronts and use it as the center speaker. Listen to a movie you previously had problems hearing the dialog. I normally boost my center channel to improve the dialog. I had a similar problem and I ended up upgrading my center channel and what a difference that made. If you think about it, the center channel has to compete with the fronts and in many cases the center channel speaker is far inferior to the fronts. Good luck.
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post #3 of 41
9/13/09 at 12:39pm
Make sure the speaker is angled upwards, if possible.

Perhaps slide it out enough, so the diffraction/reflections from the shelving might be minimized.

Audyssey is a brand with many different products. The first techs they have that I think of in your situation would be Audyssey Dyn Vol and EQ.

Just to try, I encourage you to give phantom a shot. Just tell receiver the center is not connected, and this channel is downmixed into mains. Do no underestimate the importance of tweets at ear level, nor the benefit of vertically arrayed drivers. You might be surprised.

You can try, if aesthetics allow, some treatments, or perhaps a simple thing like a Mopad to help decouple the speaker. However, I'm wondering if a speaker upgrade might be the final solution for you . . . hard to say though . . .
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post #4 of 41
9/13/09 at 12:53pm
Totally serious here...Have you had your hearing checked lately???
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post #5 of 41
9/13/09 at 4:39pm
Thread Starter 
Yes, my hearing is actually exceptional. My other is an audiologist.

I'm suddenly wondering if the amp shouldn't set the center channel to "full range". Could it be sending too much bass that's muddying things out?
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post #6 of 41
9/13/09 at 4:48pm
Decent isolation/feet may make a world of difference as well. Sympathetic vibrations may cause unwanted chestiness and muffled sound.

Keep it set to small. Adjust xover point if desired.
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post #7 of 41
9/13/09 at 4:53pm
Thread Starter 
Well my Onkyo doesn't have "small"...has various frequencies and "full range". I'll try setting it to something inbetween and fiddle.

I already have it on good feet.
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post #8 of 41
9/13/09 at 5:11pm
What is the Onkyo model #???
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post #9 of 41
9/13/09 at 5:38pm
Thread Starter 
Tx-sr606.
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post #10 of 41
9/13/09 at 6:11pm
The 606 has speaker size settings of 'Large' or 'Small'...
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post #11 of 41
9/13/09 at 7:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGSRGuy View Post

Well my Onkyo doesn't have "small"...has various frequencies and "full range". I'll try setting it to something inbetween and fiddle.

I already have it on good feet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

What is the Onkyo model #???

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGSRGuy View Post

Tx-sr606.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

The 606 has speaker size settings of 'Large' or 'Small'...

In "Onkyo speak," "Full Range" equals "Large" and any selection of a crossover equals "Small."
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post #12 of 41
9/15/09 at 12:53pm
Your tweeter is not working.
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post #13 of 41
9/15/09 at 1:14pm
Either the center speaker is defective, it could be the speaker setting, as already stated, or all of the speakers could be imbalanced. I had this same symptom happening. I upgraded to Polk speakers all around and then re-balanced and it was amazing how the dialogue really popped out. Good Luck, Joe
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post #14 of 41
9/15/09 at 6:21pm
GSR,

Try settng the surround mode to plain stereo. That will force the dialogue out the main L/R speakers. How does it sound then in comparison?
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post #15 of 41
9/15/09 at 11:30pm
You could turn on Dynamic Range Compression if it has it. It might only work for DD though.
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post #16 of 41
9/16/09 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGSRGuy View Post

Tx-sr606.

It's not your center. I have been battling this exact problem on my 606 and I am running Energy C-100 series speakers (supposedly overly bright). I finally had to bump the dB's up on the center more than I wanted. It sounds better but to be honest my current setup doesn't sound better than my old Kenwood 5.1 HTIB (all separate components in a bundle package back in the day and in today's realm it would be a HTIB setup).

I actually came in here searching/looking for a recommendation for an audio calibration disc because I don't like the way Audyssey has everything calibrated. Then I found your post and it's the same exact problem I have. Something is just missing. It's either muffled or now it seems like the center stage doesn't offer enough detail even though dialogue has gotten a bit better with the dB bump.
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post #17 of 41
9/19/09 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGSRGuy View Post

I'm reaching my wit's-end with tinkering and adjustment on this problem. There's something I'm flat-out missing, or that I'm not even thinking to try or look at.

Problem is that dialogue in movies and TV just isn't very easy to understand. I find myself turning the volume way up to hear people talk, but then all the background sounds and effects are deafening. I've re-run Audyssey several times and followed the FAQs to the letter while doing it. Following calibration I've tried boosting the center channel levels by several dB but am still not satisfied.

The speaker is a Polk CSi25. It's not super-expensive, but I feel like it should be more than able to handle this. It sits directly beneath my TV, maybe at about knee-level. I cannot place it above the TV, unfortunately.

The problem is apparent on just about any source material.

You are "turning the volume way up to hear people talk, but then all the background sounds are deafening".......so set the levels of the rest of the speakers down and the center up higher. When you turn the master volume up the center will be louder then the others.
The center is at knee level... any coffee tables or anything in between the speaker and your ears. how far away from the screen do you sit?
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post #18 of 41
9/20/09 at 5:17am
Have you tried setting your speakers to 60hz or 80hz (play with the two seetings to see what sounds better to you). Audyssey sets mine to full range as well but after playing with the settings this weekend I settled on 80hz. Sounds a lot better now. Sub is set to 120hz and 0dB. Everything else is set to around -2/-3dB by Audyssey. Like I said much improvement but vocals could still use a boost. Key is to get them off of full range for now. Still waiting for some more feedback but this was definitely a key ingredient so I recommend trying it if you haven't already done so.
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post #19 of 41
9/20/09 at 6:44am
Edited for content...
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post #20 of 41
9/20/09 at 7:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

But now you are missing everything between 81Hz & 119Hz with your settings like that...

I dunno to be honest but that seems to be the concensus in the Energy owners thread. I don't know much about hz etc. My friend who has been in the car audio industry for several years has explained some of it to me. All I know is that the Onkyo has no setting for small speakers. So when Audyssey sets everything up it's seeing them as Full Range or floor standing speakers because of from what I am understanding their bass output etc. So since you can't change them to Small you have to bypass the settings of Full Range otherwise you end up with too much mid bass. Please excuse my complete lack of knowledge. It still sounds good at 80hz but as with anything it can always be better. Please any other suggestions I am open too. Trying to help out the TS as well as myself. I don't want to bump up the center too much either as I am afraid it will sound unbalanced and possibly too overpowering.
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post #21 of 41
9/20/09 at 7:23am
What happened to the "TheGSRGuy".........I'm interested in the end results.
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post #22 of 41
9/20/09 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM5LugHatch View Post

Have you tried setting your speakers to 60hz or 80hz (play with the two seetings to see what sounds better to you). Audyssey sets mine to full range as well but after playing with the settings this weekend I settled on 80hz. Sounds a lot better now. Sub is set to 120hz and 0dB. Everything else is set to around -2/-3dB by Audyssey. Like I said much improvement but vocals could still use a boost. Key is to get them off of full range for now. Still waiting for some more feedback but this was definitely a key ingredient so I recommend trying it if you haven't already done so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

But now you are missing everything between 81Hz & 119Hz with your settings like that...

No, he's not. The 120 Hz setting is the LPF of LFE. It has no effect on any other channel than the LFE channel. It doesn't even affect the re-directed bass from the mains.

Quote:
In "Onkyo speak," "Full Range" equals "Large" and any selection of a crossover equals "Small."

^ True dat!
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post #23 of 41
9/20/09 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

No, he's not. The 120 Hz setting is the LPF of LFE. It has no effect on any other channel than the LFE channel. It doesn't even affect the re-directed bass from the mains.

Absolutely, I don't know what I was thinking...The LFE or sub channel is for 120Hz and below while the mains stop @ 80Hz so there is an overlap as there should be...I apologize to JDM5LugHatch for giving him wrong info...He isn't missing anything...
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post #24 of 41
9/20/09 at 4:19pm
could also try eliminating the center.
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post #25 of 41
9/20/09 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM5LugHatch View Post

I dunno to be honest but that seems to be the concensus in the Energy owners thread. I don't know much about hz etc. My friend who has been in the car audio industry for several years has explained some of it to me. All I know is that the Onkyo has no setting for small speakers. So when Audyssey sets everything up it's seeing them as Full Range or floor standing speakers because of from what I am understanding their bass output etc. So since you can't change them to Small you have to bypass the settings of Full Range otherwise you end up with too much mid bass. Please excuse my complete lack of knowledge. It still sounds good at 80hz but as with anything it can always be better. Please any other suggestions I am open too. Trying to help out the TS as well as myself. I don't want to bump up the center too much either as I am afraid it will sound unbalanced and possibly too overpowering.

Audyssey doesn't "set up" anything. Audyssey measures the lower -3 db point of the speakers and passes that information to the AVR DSP. The AVR than selects the first crossover above the measured -3 db point. In an Onkyo AVR, if Audyssey measures a -3 db point of 35 hz, the AVR calls the speakers "Full Range." 40 hz is the break point for Onkyo.

Any time you change the speaker crossovers from "Full Range" you are setting the speakers to "Small." That is how Onkyo does it. You are not bypassing anything. If you set the satellite speakers to 80 hz, everything 80 hz and above is reproduced by the satellites, and everything 80 hz and below is reproduced by the sub. LFE is a separate, discrete channel which has nothing to do with the 80 hz crossover and should be set to 120 hz.
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post #26 of 41
9/21/09 at 5:53am
I just fixed this problem on my moms Onkyo.

The problem was that in setup, the listening mode was set to "wide"
I set it to "narrow" and presto !
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post #27 of 41
9/21/09 at 5:38pm
Ok my step dad has the onkyo 606 and I did the setup to get everything sounding good. He just had left over left, center, right and subwoofer from a previous onkyo htib. Not good speakers by any means and he also got cheap in walls for the 4 surrounds. I set all the cross overs to 100hz and I have the speaker volumes as followed: Left +8, Center +12, Right +8, Right Side +8, Right Rear +10, Left Rear +10, Left Side +8, and Subwoofer +10. With those settings it sounds really good considering the quality of speakers. I also ran Audyssee and hated what it did so I manually tuned it and on the speakers I have all the frequencies turned up all the way and I also have the bass and treble for the overall system all the way up. Seamless sound all the way around with crisp clear dialog with ambient sounds also at appropriate levels. Try that and see if it works.
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post #28 of 41
9/21/09 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

Ok my step dad has the onkyo 606 and I did the setup to get everything sounding good. He just had left over left, center, right and subwoofer from a previous onkyo htib. Not good speakers by any means and he also got cheap in walls for the 4 surrounds. I set all the cross overs to 100hz and I have the speaker volumes as followed: Left +8, Center +12, Right +8, Right Side +8, Right Rear +10, Left Rear +10, Left Side +8, and Subwoofer +10. With those settings it sounds really good considering the quality of speakers. I also ran Audyssee and hated what it did so I manually tuned it and on the speakers I have all the frequencies turned up all the way and I also have the bass and treble for the overall system all the way up. Seamless sound all the way around with crisp clear dialog with ambient sounds also at appropriate levels. Try that and see if it works.

Are you kidding? As an HT "guru", surely you understand that these settings are totally wrong. Everything jacked up to +8/+10??? The bass and treble controls turned all the way up??? Those speakers are not long for this world.

If this group of settings yields what you consider to be "seamless", "crisp" and "clear" results, it's no wonder you "hated" Audyssey's results. But, if you really *like* sizzle and boom, then go for it.

Better yet, try CALIBRATING the system properly, then setting the system for flat response, and turn the overall volume up. See if you don't like *correct* settings better.

Craig
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post #29 of 41
9/21/09 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

are you kidding? As an ht "guru", surely you understand that these settings are totally wrong. Everything jacked up to +8/+10??? The bass and treble controls turned all the way up??? Those speakers are not long for this world.

If this group of settings yields what you consider to be "seamless", "crisp" and "clear" results, it's no wonder you "hated" audyssey's results. But, if you really *like* sizzle and boom, then go for it.

Better yet, try calibrating the system properly, then setting the system for flat response, and turn the overall volume up. See if you don't like *correct* settings better.

Craig

+1
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post #30 of 41
9/21/09 at 9:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Are you kidding? As an HT "guru", surely you understand that these settings are totally wrong. Everything jacked up to +8/+10??? The bass and treble controls turned all the way up??? Those speakers are not long for this world.

If this group of settings yields what you consider to be "seamless", "crisp" and "clear" results, it's no wonder you "hated" Audyssey's results. But, if you really *like* sizzle and boom, then go for it.

Better yet, try CALIBRATING the system properly, then setting the system for flat response, and turn the overall volume up. See if you don't like *correct* settings better.

Craig

I was going to say something but I just didn't know where to start there were so many things wrong with what he said...Nice job...
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