*Official* Pioneer Elite VSX-21/23THX Owners Thread - Page 107

well put, cr_client...

This is a very disappointing post CR. It is clear you are referring to me. I own this AVR. Bet you do not. I bought this unit after research mostly from here. The unit can still be purchased from a few sites today.

Guess you're a Pio fanboy too. Maybe you ought to have a look around and audition a few units. Pioneer sucks for firmware updates and OSD. Enough said.

^^^

yes, i'm a card carrying pioneer fanboy...

that being said, there's a marantz av7005 in my rack right now...

Bet I do.

I'll bet you $500 I do, and have for over a year. Wanna start taking bets on the purchase date, too? Here's a hint: enough research into my postings would reveal this information.

And yet, I don't complain about a lack of HDMI 1.4 compatibility, my remote works perfectly fine, and I couldn't care less about the OSD. I haven't used it since I first set the system up over a year ago, except for the occasional time or two that I have my iPod hooked up and my TV happens to be on.

The OSD now looks much nicer than it did only a few years ago, but, again, for something that's only used to set up the system, it's perfectly acceptable. I'd rather R&D spend time on the internal components and audio processing than spend gobs of time making the OSD look flashy and pretty.

And, given Pioneer's stated philosophy, which they print in every one of their manuals, they care about audio quality first, and video "fluff" like OSDs third or fourth.

you would have been familiar with the OSD before you even bought the receiver if you did the research you say you did, so how is that an issue 2 years later? Its not like they promised something fancier and never delivered.

My VSX23 serve me good. In fact, now that I bought a DVDO DUO for video processing, I don't care about the video part anymore. I do have the remote problem once or twice.. but I have yet to update the FW... With the price (around $450) that I got it at that time, I think it is not bad.

I finally did it. I finally upgraded my 6 year old Yahama HTR 5740 receiver with the vsx 21. It was no small decision. I probably did 9 months of research while saving up my money to finally have enough to upgrade. Now I know the 21 isn't a new model year unit that features ARC and 1.4 HDMI, but it is much better than what I had before. In fact, I am not interested in 3D content nor will ever be until there is a unified technology for it. (My wife definitely doesn't like 3D since she gets headaches from watching it.)

I poured over review after review, and page after page of different receivers in the AVS forums to try to figure out what I wanted. I went back and forth so many times I think I was driving myself crazy. I wasn't exactly focused directly on the 21 during my research as I was just trying to maximize my bang for the buck since I had a limited budget to work with. Yesterday I ran into a smokin deal on ebay for a refurbished unit that was listed as a "buy it now" or "best offer". I offered a low ball price and they accepted. I was very surprised they accepted such a low price. I just could not pass it up. I purchased a squaretrade warranty for some piece of mind also. That being said, I am very excited about getting this receiver to finally finish my HT upgrade.

One of the things that kept drawing me back to the 21 was the relatively few major issues it has compared to some of the others out there. for example, I was very interested in an HK 2600 or 3600 but after reading through nearly the entire forum, I just couldn't bring myself to take the risk of the various recurring issues that has plagued those units despite multiple FW updates.

Anyways, I'm glad to be here and hope to learn more from all of you.

Lol. Well, you have to admit I breathed new life into this thread. I have nothing bad to say about the sound of the 23. It is a killer.

I will not take that bet and did not research you. For some reason I thought you were an SC owner.

And this post again, like the last one directed at me is pretty much spot on. I did my research, I got a fine AVR. It just never worked for the wife and I caught grief over it. So I had to hook things up in a manner that did not always let the 23 live up to its potential since it had no pass through and that was just not going to work for the WAF in the main TV room aka man cave.

IOT keep the 23 I asked for advice as to how some have worked around this. Nothing. Since these units are still selling, I thought I would post about the shortfalls they have VS what can be had today. It appears my frustration came through as whining so I need to reevaluate how I approach this. Not sure how I can point out shortfalls in the unit VS todays offerings and not whine.

I currently have a Yamaha 867 running now. Not sure I am going to keep it since it does not have the top end the 23 did, but sounds great right up to that point. It is stupid easy to use and the wife can do whatever she wants and even use the surround now via scene buttons that I set up. AVR not on? She can watch normally or change inputs with a single button without powering the receiver on. So yes, I knew the 23 would not do that and neither did others but it has been a major thorn in my side since the purchase that she could not use it. Pass through is a true Godsend for me.

Now, you have been a treasure trove of info here and I have learned a lot from your posts and insights. Like I said from the day I got the 23, I am not going to power on a power hungry AVR just to watch the news at 0500AM before going to work and wake everyone up.

So anyway, I edited my first response to your other post some hours later because I realized I was a bit POd. Now I just want to say that I have enjoyed my 23 but it is going to serve some other purpose now or be sold for the reasons I "whined" about. Most of the posting was to advise folks who are looking at these units about my observations. Seems somebody just bought a 21. I am sure others will be getting a newer unit for the same reasons as me and folks looking to buy the old ones will be looking for info. That is why I am posting so they know the limitations right up front.

As always, thanks for your input. You have pointed out the obvious to me on my choice of purchase. You can bet it won't happen again. I hope you enjoy your 23 for many years. I am very pleased with my new unit except for the power which tops out 15W less, I may return and upgrade for one of the 130W units. That OSD GUI is the chit.

Well gotta go, my OSD indicates there is a firmware update to do. Yep, AVRs are expensive processors today and like a computer, if you cannot update you have a dinosaur. BTW, the OSD on this Yamaha is not used just to set up the unit. It shows what signal is coming in, what sound channels are being fed, your internet connection info, what processing you are applying, the parametric equalizer, etc etc all on an overlay of the signal picture. Real easy to see and manipulate, sweet. Cheers!

Well, my first additional thoughts did not seem to post. I just wanted to say if you do not care about pass through and 3d, as well as the new 1.4 which is high speed until they change that because something else is higher speed, then one of these units will serve you well. Final thought, for the money, you may want to make sure any unit you buy can be easily updated via firmware. Yes I could have updated my 23 via non-factory supported means but did not. It was only going to fix a remote power on issue and not really anything else. Yeah Pioneer. Could not even admit the problem exists.

Congrats. You are going to love the sound that unit can put out. If you have no need for pass through and 3d, you will be more than satisfied. Not the easiest unit for non techies to use but a quality piece of equipment. Not sure you can top the sound quality even with today's units.

Sound quality was my main goal so units in the elite series was on my short list. I think I can work around the pass through issue and as I posted earlier, 3D is not even on my radar. I am a bit tech savvy and definitely look forward rolling my sleeves up and diving in setting up the 21. I can't wait to hear the difference between my old yammy and and the 21.

It will be night and day... trust me. I run a full 5.1 Bose setup (Haters need not apply) and it changed the sound significantly. Where I thought I had a bad batch of speakers that sounded as if they were botteming out... this AVR has made them pound like I've never heard them before. I had a Yammy HTR-5640 and there is no competition.

As far as Mike's comments, What purpose is there FOR a FW update? The unit works flawlessly. I don't and have never experienced this remote issue. But besides that, there really isn't anything I can see that would benefit from an update. HDMI 1.4 and 3D is not for me. I only bought this unit cause my new TV (Sharp Quattron 920UN) doesn't have legacy inputs and the Yammy had 1 Optical in for DVD... just not going to cut it.

I think it's a fine unit. Many people praise me on grabbing a very nice receiver. I've had it as loud as -5 and I really couldnt want to push it anymore. Hell I don't gain anything from the speakers I do use so why anymore? It's loud loud...

Just have to get it tuned right once I'm finished unpacking and the HT is set up properly. I can't say I was impressed with the MACC initial setup... I prefer it and the EQ turned off and retrieving the sound naturally... It shows its true colors then.

I have taken my 23 to +10. No problems, quality unit. I have Bose 901s, those are excellent speakers that I use special purpose. Not for everyday use.

As for the remote power on issue, this is well documented and there is a firmware update to fix it that Pioneer does not make available to you. You may or may not experience the problem depending on your setup. So there is value to being able to easily update firmware if you need to though for the most part not needed in these units. You can still do it but fail and you are on your own.

The new passthrough units are not just convenient but energy friendly. It costs money to power on a 21/23 nowadays. Besides they make use easy for anybody in the house, some better than others. Sometimes a FW update is necessary and therefore my post about that.

Now back to these units. I bought a new Yamaha 867 to replace my 23. It does all I wanted except when it comes to cranking it up. I had the Yamaha shut down at +2 on a concert DVD that I have listened to much louder on the 23 which was around +10. The Yamaha sounds very good but cannot put out the sound my 23 could which makes sense since the Yamaha is rated at 95W and the 23 was 110. So like I posted earlier it is hard to top these units in the amp department without going really high end.

Unfortunately they are not user friendly for the WAF due to no passthrough and no OSD which makes it easy for anyone to do what they want if they power the AVR on. That has been the bane of my 23 experience since I got it. While I bought my 23 only 2 years ago, my wife likes the Yamaha much better. No universal remote required and the unit does not have to be powered on to do anything you normally do unless you want surround sound.

Other than that, if you are looking for a quality AVR that has great processing capabilities with a good power supply and amp section, the 21/23 Elite is for you. Just remember it is 1.3a HDMI and will never be more than that. No fixing that. Saying that, the 21/23 Elite series are some quality amps that are hard to top nowadays without throwing out serious cash.

I love my VSX-9040TXH, and the lack of HDMI 1.4 and pass-through are not missed. I've had it 12 months (upgraded from a VSX-D812S), and bought a new non-3D Plasma TV in July.
I tried all the 3D TVs at a store, and while it was cool, it seems like the latest implementation of 3D for consumers is disorganized and awkward, which made me unwilling to pay the "3D tax."
I don't plan to buy 3D stuff until I have kids that will watch movies on infinite repeat. The cost benefit makes more sense. Besides, I need an excuse to see movies on 3D IMAX screens.
Regarding pass-through, I prefer turning the amp section on every time and listening to my surround speakers. The sound reproduction by my plasma TV is very poor, which I think describes audio with the vast majority of flat panel TVs these days.

With my old Yammy I couldn't get it to -10 and you could hear she was struggling and would ultimately shut off. I knew she couldn't put out the power that was needed. I am a very loyal Yammy fan as I tried to blow mine up and just couldn't. Bullet proof.

However, For everything this AVR offered and for the price I did pay, I got a deal. I bought a 7 month old receiver from a guy that knows a friend of mine. Now he bought it off Amazon so the warranty is shot anyways (educated him on this). Regardless he can't return it so he took a loss. He wanted to go the 3D route and has an all Kuro setup. I for one don't need 3D nor am I interested so with the amazing condition this unit was in... I won. Thanks for reassuring me that my purchase was a good one though. Nice to know that when I do upgrade speakers in the future I can expect nothing but stability when I want to make my ears bleed.

For the record, I have Series I 701 towers with the rare dual woofers in each paired with 201 rears and a VCS-10 center. Wicked bassy and sounds hella great. People still think I run a sub. Just they can't keep up at the very loud high end for low's.

As far as WAF goes... my girlfriend loves it and has no issues using it. She can switch from HTPC to TV and can adjust the volume... there isn't anything else that needs to be done. If it wasn't for the deal I got, I would have probably moved to Marantz, Onkyo or Denon. An Elite was out of my league for price until this beauty popped up.

I would like to thank all of you who have contributed your knowledge and discussion in this thread. It was a great resource for me as it made it quite easy for me while I was setting up my new 21. I truly felt like a kid at Christmas when I was working on it!

I think I have everything set up and calibrated the way I want it but I will do some demos the next few days to find tune things. I like to demo certain scenes in Transformers 1 and Terminator Salvation while setting up and making adjustments for HT use.

I haven't had a chance yet to check the fw version yet to see what came with it. The label on the back of the unit shows a date of 10/15/2010. I assume that is the date it was refurbished. Is it safe to assume that Pioneer would have updated the unit to the latest firmware version during the refurbish process?

I wouldn't say that it's safe to assume that the latest firmware was added during the refurb. process. It would be nice if it was included, but I wouldn't guarantee it by any stretch of the imagination.

Should have had plenty of time to check on the FW version by now, though, so I'm curious to know what you found.

I finally had time to check the firmware of my refurbished 21. It looks slightly older than what was previously posted as version 1.054. My unit has version 1.052 with Syscon release 241, Eventcon Rev 1.210 and DSP Firm Ver 1.005.
I'm not going to be in a big hurry to upgrade at this point unless I start encountering issues the more I use it. Well gotta go, time to have some more fun with my 21!

Those are good movies to demo and set up the unit with.

Might I suggest Bluray movies to test it with if those are not? You will be amazed.

As for me, the 23 is back in the rack and the Yamaha 867 went back to the store. For now, the 23 is going to be hard to top for sheer power and clarity in my setup. The thing just cranks and sounds so good. Too bad it is not as easy to use as the wife would like and that HDMI passthrough is still a thorn in my side. Remote power on disappeared for 2 days after I reinstalled the 23 and then returned with a vengeance. I don't care what anyone here says, that is just lame. Don't tell me to fix it, Pioneer should fix it. Same reason I won't buy another one of their units, no user FW update because their product is so perfect from the get go. Please.

Not sure they updated during the refurb process but I can say your stuff is newer than mine. Check it out:

Version: 1.021, Syscon 133, Eventcon Rev 1.209, DSP Firm Ver 1.003.

I would not be in a hurry to try to update anything either unless you have a problem. You know, by contrast, when I auditioned the Yamaha 867, the first thing that happened when I powered it on after hooking everything up, it prompted me to update the FW. I skipped that and set it up. Later I just updated it VIA the ethernet connection. Painless and something Pioneer ought to learn from. Maybe they have and I don't know yet. I will say that the units sound great and are easy to set up.

If you have not tried a passthrough unit you are missing something. You die hard folks here wanting to bash me let it go. People come here for info on the units. This unit rocks. It sucks for ease of use and has no passthrough. The GUI is fair and that is being generous. This unit is still for sale at some places but will be on EBay soon for reasons I mentioned as owners move on. So buyers will come here for info.

This is a killer AVR for sound quality and power. Except for presence and front wide etc, there is nothing new that is noteworthy or really matters for most users. It does checkerboard 3d pass through for older Sammy and Mitsu DLPs as well but not today's 1.4 versions.

Did I mention none of the new AVRs have anything new of sound processing substance that really matters in your home unless you have a ton of speakers and even then? OK, long post, never going to be 1.4 capable. Not going to user upgrade any firmware unless on the downlow. Company is going to hang you out to dry as they have from day1 on certain issues and that ship has sailed as your FW versions obviously point out but Pioneer never posts on their site, jeez.

I am a 23 owner posting my observations here. Other owners may disagree but have no real arguments where my real issues lie with this unit. Your issues may not be the same and then you have found a great unit that can really crank it out. Just not my solution for now, but working very well until I figure out what to replace it with which is proving quite difficult.

I am using Blurays for those movies and others for DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD demoing. I wasn't sold at first on the newer lossless audio formats until I heard the difference on a friends system. He would go back and forth from the standard DTS to DTS-HD on a movie we were watching... and wow... I came away quite impressed by how much better the HD stuff sounded. That experience really fueled my search for a receiver upgrade.

I know there has been some discussion surrounding the 21/23 and some of its issues and shortcomings. I agree there are valid arguments concerning the lack of end user Firmware support, lack of certain features such as HDMI passthrough, and general function issues such the documented power-on problem. But we have to keep in mind that these models are considered legacy equipment in that regard. That being said, I believe these units to be relatively trouble free compared to some of the other options out there. For example, at one time I was very interested in the Harman Kardon AVR 2600/3600 due to its reputation for sound quality, aesthetics, and power. BUT, I ultimately had to go a different direction because of the multitude of problems the owners were reporting. Want to know more? Just look up that thread to read all of the headaches especially the severe HDMI handshake issues. Yes, those HK units are firmware upgradeable by the owner, but even after multiple FW releases, various problems still persist. So what can we take from that? Well, FW upgrades are only good if they actually fix the issues they are supposed to and not create new ones. This is just one example of other options out there that also have issues to deal with. I don't think there is a receiver out there that will not have some sort of problem plaguing it.

So for me, my budget for an upgraded receiver was in the $300-$400 range. I wanted to spend more on it, but in today's economy I couldn't bring myself to do it. I definitely could have opted for a new vsx 1020 with current technologies. But for the same price or less, I was able to get the refurbished elite. With that I got a much better amp section, and pre outs so I can upgrade to an external amp down the road if my budget allows. Two really important factors for me. In my opinion, I think the 21/23's are exceptional values in regards to price/performance especially considering their age. I agree with Mikes2cents that I don't think a person could find a receiver that's in the same class of sound quality and sheer power without throwing a ton more money at it.

I'm wondering if the firmware update will solve my "timeout" issue while using a usb to serial driver.

so i have the VSX21 and have had it for 2 years.

recently, it started having the power-on issues so i found the update that is available on here but i haven't uploaded it to my system yet. i bought a Harmony One remote and it seems to power it on and off all the time, no problems at all so i never bothered with the update.

last night, the HDMI inputs seem to have quit on me... everything was working fine 1 week ago.

i was trying to watch a movie using my PS3 which is connected to my AVR via HDMI for sound and video. nothing would come up on my TV and no sound would come out of my speakers. all the inputs were correct and had not been changed since the last time i used my PS3 (about 1 week ago).

so i hooked up the PS3 directly to the TV via HDMI and viola! there was picture and sound so that eliminated the PS3 as a problem.

i hooked it to the AVR again and the same problem comes up. i tried using a different HDMI input and still no worky worky. i tried a different HDMI cable and still, the problem persists.

after all that, my wife said to stop fiddling with it cause she wanted to watch a movie. haha.

has anyone else had this problem? how did you solve it? would the firmware update fix this?

sounds like it is broken...
To further make sure, I suggest you switch a working unit (say your cable box) input to the original PS3 input and see if that works. If it still doesn't work, then it is likely that particular HDMI port is broken. However, if it work, then it looks like it is some handshake issue between your PS3 and your AVR. Did you recently update your PS3 FW or something? The worst case is to try reset your AVR, or maybe unplug the power of the AVR and try... Good luck.

well, apparently the problem fixed itself magically. went and tested it again to make sure i tried everything and it worked.

has anybody had this HDMI problem before? think the updated FW will fix it?

i'm not very worried cause i have warranty on this thing until 2014.

I was able to really put the 21 through the paces this last weekend and boy did I have fun doing it! I must say that I am quite impressed with the performance gain I observed coming off of my old Yammy receiver. My sons and I played Black Ops on the 360 for about six hours on Friday night. The explosions and gun fire were taken to a new level. My sons and I were astonished at the realism and the fantastic sound quality. After the gaming fest, we listened to some music as well and were similarly impressed. Saturday night was movie night and my family and I watched Unstoppable. All I can say is WOW! The entire family was very happy with the improvement and we all contemplated to start charging admission when we have guests come over to watch movies with us! Well anyway, I am more than pleased with my decision to purchase the 21. No regrets!

Indeed. I've enjoyed my 23 VERY much. It's as if music has been reborn. Even to this day I'm still learning about it. So many options and features, inputs and program selections... There must be 20+ different surround modes and I have NO idea which one is the right one for me. Power output though...? WOW.

I posted a while back that the blue LED on my power button stopped working, but I didn't see it as a big deal, because I didn't like it anyway.

Well, yesterday, the blue LED behind the center of the bottom edge of the display stopped working, too, and now it's just a faint white LED.

Again, it looks slightly better than before, but I kinda got used to the blue LED look, and it bothers me that LEDs, of all things, would stop working on the unit.

Anyone else have the second LED go out on them? This might be the impetus I need to take it in for service so that I can get the firmware updated (even though I've not experienced any of the firmware-related issues).