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*Official* Pioneer Elite VSX-21/23THX Owners Thread - Page 3

post #61 of 3493
9/28/09 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyefly View Post

If you haven't heard of it, check out videogon.com for great deals on Pioneer Elite 7.1 receivers and many other Home Theater products. I bought an Elite VSX21 from Will2. When I last looked at the site they also have the VSX23 & SC27 for some amazing $ discounts. You'll have to look for yourself as there are to be no price talks on this forum.
They do not sell any products online. To order, you will need to talk with him on the telephone. When you email him, he will give you the details including his telephone number. Apparently, also includes Pioneer factory Warranty. I am a happy customer. Straight forward deal with great price and service. Hope it can help you, too!

Be careful, I hear Pioneer will not honor any warranty for products purchased from a dealer that is not authorized, and these guys are likely not, the website doesn't say they are. Try value electronics, they carry all these pio models, they are authorized, and they ship for free.

I am buying a KRP-500M (pio plasma panel) from them, and they have amazing prices to add on the pio receivers or bd players. The prices they quoted me are considerably lower than videogon, but that is part of a package with the tv. You will have to ask them for prices on the receiver alone. I will buy the 21 or 23 from them just deciding which.
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post #62 of 3493
9/28/09 at 5:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbrown13 View Post

It's set to 'yes'. I will try switching it to 'plus' when I get home. If the 'plus' setting increases the LFE output for cds and solves this issue, will I then end up with an issue where the sub is too loud over the other inputs that now sound ok?

What you would then do is run the Auto MCACC, not Full Auto MCACC and chose to keep the manual speaker settings in the menu of Auto MCACC before running it. You can read about this in MCACC thread. It'll adjust everything with the PLUS mode on. Full Auto MCACC decides everything for you.
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post #63 of 3493
9/28/09 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy11 View Post

Be careful, I hear Pioneer will not honor any warranty for products purchased from a dealer that is not authorized, and these guys are likely not, the website doesn't say they are. Try value electronics, they carry all these pio models, they are authorized, and they ship for free.

I am buying a KRP-500M (pio plasma panel) from them, and they have amazing prices to add on the pio receivers or bd players. The prices they quoted me are considerably lower than videogon, but that is part of a package with the tv. You will have to ask them for prices on the receiver alone. I will buy the 21 or 23 from them just deciding which.

Thanks. I am yet to decide between 21 and 23.

23 has
+ 1 hdmi input
+ 1 hdmi output
+ 1 zone output (3 zones)
+ Multi channel PQLS vs 2 channel.

I hope i haven't missed any.

Based on this, i think i'll go for vsx-21
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post #64 of 3493
9/28/09 at 11:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmax2k1 View Post

Someone posted this on the 1019 thread, figured you guys should know too. Makes no sense to me.

The versatile ABT1015 chip powers the video processing in the $899 VSX-23TXH, the $699 VSX-21TXH, and the $499 VSX-1019AH-K receivers, all of which are currently on sale in the U.S. market. The chip is also found in the VSA-LX52 (150,000 Yen) and VSA-1019AH (105,000 Yen) receivers, on sale in Japan

The ABT1015 is not the same as the ABT2010 found in the DVDO Edge or the Oppo BDP-83. It's a lower end model and doesn't have all the features. In these two Pioneer receivers it doesn't even scale 720p or 1080i to 1080p. At least that's what page 68 of the owner's manual says. " Conversion to 1080p is only performed for 480i, 576i, 480p and 576p input signals."

-Sean
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post #65 of 3493
9/29/09 at 5:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabkab View Post

What you would then do is run the Auto MCACC, not Full Auto MCACC and chose to keep the manual speaker settings in the menu of Auto MCACC before running it. You can read about this in MCACC thread. It'll adjust everything with the PLUS mode on. Full Auto MCACC decides everything for you.

Last night I set the sub to 'plus' but didn't rerun the MCACC. It seemed to help a little, but something is still not right. I will do what you suggest tonight. The sub is recognized when I run the MCACC, it even tells me to turn it down, but during playback it seems to disappear. And cds only seem to sound good using the PLIIx+MS+THX setting. Both pure direct and stereo sound funny.

Additionally, I discovered some crackling when listening to cds, no matter the volume. My cd player is a Kenwood, closing in on 10 years old. Its hooked up via coax and I never had this issue before. When I get a chance I will try a different cable and if that doesn't help I'll try running over optical instead.

I'll also browse the MCACC thread to see what I can learn. Thanks for the feedback.
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post #66 of 3493
9/29/09 at 9:22am
I was in local BB today, and saw they had some very good deals on open box items. I can get an open box Elite 21TXH for $410 and an open box pioneer regular line 819H for $160. Just wonder which one should I pick? My original plan is to get a 919, now that I have this opportunity, it is really tough to choose. To be honest, I don't care the extra features or quality of Elite line, but at such discount price, it may make sense to get a 21TXH over 919 (This maybe the only opportunity I'd ever own an Elite model) . But then when I look at the discount price of the open box 819, it is even more attractive (it is like BB just gives it away for nothing). The 819 actually can meet all I needs except that the only thing I don't like the 819 is that it only has the basic MCACC, and no manual EQ adjustment. I really want the advanced MCACC with manually adjustable EQ, but does it really worth the $250 difference just for the advanced MCACC? (I figure I may be able to get another 919 next year with the $250 saving of getting the 819 over Elite 21TXH right now, and then down the road, I should be able to easily resell the 819 at the price I pay right now). So help me make the decision. Should I pick the open box 819H, or Elite 21txh, or stick with my original plan for 919?
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post #67 of 3493
9/29/09 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by matbhuvi View Post

Thanks. I am yet to decide between 21 and 23.

23 has
+ 1 hdmi input
+ 1 hdmi output
+ 1 zone output (3 zones)
+ Multi channel PQLS vs 2 channel.

I hope i haven't missed any.

Based on this, i think i'll go for vsx-21

The 23 has the extra hdmi on the front panel, which is a big plus for me, as I will sometimes want to hook up my laptop which has an hdmi out.
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post #68 of 3493
9/29/09 at 7:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by avdigger View Post

I was in local BB today, and saw they had some very good deals on open box items. I can get an open box Elite 21TXH for $410 and an open box pioneer regular line 819H for $160. Just wonder which one should I pick? My original plan is to get a 919, now that I have this opportunity, it is really tough to choose. To be honest, I don't care the extra features or quality of Elite line, but at such discount price, it may make sense to get a 21TXH over 919 (This maybe the only opportunity I'd ever own an Elite model) . But then when I look at the discount price of the open box 819, it is even more attractive (it is like BB just gives it away for nothing). The 819 actually can meet all I needs except that the only thing I don't like the 819 is that it only has the basic MCACC, and no manual EQ adjustment. I really want the advanced MCACC with manually adjustable EQ, but does it really worth the $250 difference just for the advanced MCACC? (I figure I may be able to get another 919 next year with the $250 saving of getting the 819 over Elite 21TXH right now, and then down the road, I should be able to easily resell the 819 at the price I pay right now). So help me make the decision. Should I pick the open box 819H, or Elite 21txh, or stick with my original plan for 919?

As we suggested on the other thread; at that price- THE 21! I doubt you'd get any support for the other models that are not in the same class, plain and simple. The only reason you shouldn't is if you can't afford it (and there is nothing wrong with that).
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post #69 of 3493
9/30/09 at 6:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbrown13 View Post

Last night I set the sub to 'plus' but didn't rerun the MCACC. It seemed to help a little, but something is still not right. I will do what you suggest tonight. The sub is recognized when I run the MCACC, it even tells me to turn it down, but during playback it seems to disappear. And cds only seem to sound good using the PLIIx+MS+THX setting. Both pure direct and stereo sound funny.

Additionally, I discovered some crackling when listening to cds, no matter the volume. My cd player is a Kenwood, closing in on 10 years old. Its hooked up via coax and I never had this issue before. When I get a chance I will try a different cable and if that doesn't help I'll try running over optical instead.

I'll also browse the MCACC thread to see what I can learn. Thanks for the feedback.

Last night I switched the fronts to 'small', which I clearly should have done in the first place, and there was a marked improvement. After rerunning the MCACC keeping the speaker settings I still found music to sound best using the MS THX setting, but that may just be personal preference. But there is a startling difference between that and either the stereo or direct setting.

The MCACC thread does make for interesting reading, and over the weekend I should finally have time to really tinker and just sit back and listen to my new stuff.
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post #70 of 3493
9/30/09 at 7:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbrown13 View Post

Last night I switched the fronts to 'small', which I clearly should have done in the first place, and there was a marked improvement. After rerunning the MCACC keeping the speaker settings I still found music to sound best using the MS THX setting, but that may just be personal preference. But there is a startling difference between that and either the stereo or direct setting.

The MCACC thread does make for interesting reading, and over the weekend I should finally have time to really tinker and just sit back and listen to my new stuff.

Good. Once I set the speakers correctly and had Plus on, and then ran the MCACC with those settings saved (you have to read how to manually save them before running MCACC)--thats when the true benefits will be noticable. I can tell you from my experience that the MCACC and my 23 alone (no ext amp) sound better than my Denon 2808ci (no slouch) which was used as a processor with a BK 200x5 amp. This clearly shows me the benefits of the room correction/s, etc. make more of a difference than just brute force, albiet good amplification.

Ps. Main point is- manually changing speaker/sub settings after running MCACC is not the same as manually saving the settings in order to then run MCACC. Keep us posted on your system and I'm wondering if your Kenwood CD player may be holding you back?
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post #71 of 3493
9/30/09 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabkab View Post

Ps. Main point is- manually changing speaker/sub settings after running MCACC is not the same as manually saving the settings in order to then run MCACC. Keep us posted on your system and I'm wondering if your Kenwood CD player may be holding you back?

Previously I had run the full auto MCACC, with mixed results. So I went in and changed the fronts to small, then ran Auto MCACC and chose Keep SP System and was left with what I believe is 3 saved settings (Symmetry, All Ch Adj and Front Align). Was I supposed to save the speaker size changes I made first? And do I need to save the 3 results somehow? I plan to copy them to 4-6 just to have them on file to refer to after future tinkering.

I suspect the Kenwood is holding me back. I need a new player anyway, its just worn down from years of heavy use. The selection of multidisc changers I've seen on the market isn't very inspiring, unfortunately. Dedicated cd players in general are more rare thanks to the digital music craze (of which I am part of the problem) unless you are looking for a relatively high-end single disc player. Pretty soon I'll cruise through those threads see what people are using/recommending.
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post #72 of 3493
9/30/09 at 9:13am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbrown13 View Post

Previously I had run the full auto MCACC, with mixed results. So I went in and changed the fronts to small, then ran Auto MCACC and chose Keep SP System and was left with what I believe is 3 saved settings (Symmetry, All Ch Adj and Front Align). Was I supposed to save the speaker size changes I made first? And do I need to save the 3 results somehow? I plan to copy them to 4-6 just to have them on file to refer to after future tinkering.

I suspect the Kenwood is holding me back. I need a new player anyway, its just worn down from years of heavy use. The selection of multidisc changers I've seen on the market isn't very inspiring, unfortunately. Dedicated cd players in general are more rare thanks to the digital music craze (of which I am part of the problem) unless you are looking for a relatively high-end single disc player. Pretty soon I'll cruise through those threads see what people are using/recommending.

I think you are good with what you did with MCACC. If you went through the "Keep SP settings", you were in the right place to do that (obviously as long as you had set them as I assume you had-- all small and SW Plus). You know the funny thing as I'm thinking on the fly, is I didn't think the PlUS option is available with fronts set on small? You can go into the menu and check all the speaker settings that were saved. See it is still set to PLUS vs Yes and let us know as I can't figure what Plus would do if mains are small because the idea is routing bass to large mains and the SW at the same time. That would be couterproductive to send the low stuff if your fronts are small. By the way, if your fronts are floorstanders you should try them on large with the plus. Hey, and have fun deciphering my on the fly, convoluted rambling
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post #73 of 3493
9/30/09 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy11 View Post

The 23 has the extra hdmi on the front panel, which is a big plus for me, as I will sometimes want to hook up my laptop which has an hdmi out.

That is purely preference. I generally leave the cable connected to the back but hidden so that it is not visible. When needed, i just take that out and connect so that i dont need to reach to the back panel every time. I do that for the s-video inputs from my laptop.
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post #74 of 3493
9/30/09 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabkab View Post

I think you are good with what you did with MCACC. If you went through the "Keep SP settings", you were in the right place to do that (obviously as long as you had set them as I assume you had-- all small and SW Plus). You know the funny thing as I'm thinking on the fly, is I didn't think the PlUS option is available with fronts set on small? You can go into the menu and check all the speaker settings that were saved. See it is still set to PLUS vs Yes and let us know as I can't figure what Plus would do if mains are small because the idea is routing bass to large mains and the SW at the same time. That would be couterproductive to send the low stuff if your fronts are small. By the way, if your fronts are floorstanders you should try them on large with the plus. Hey, and have fun deciphering my on the fly, convoluted rambling

It automatically switched sw to yes from plus when i changed the fronts to small. I do have floorstanders, but as floorstanders go they'd likely be considered middle-of-the-line at best (they retail for $600 each, I paid considerably less). I may go back and run the MCACC with large/plus settings but I think what I have now is the way to go.

Personally I feel convoluted rambling is the best kind of rambling.
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post #75 of 3493
9/30/09 at 12:42pm
Would it benefit me to wait and get a vsx21txh with the new video processor if Im hooking up a DirecTV HD cable box, Blurray player and Xbox 360 or will it now make a difference??

Thanks ahead of time
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post #76 of 3493
9/30/09 at 1:42pm
Hello....Has anyone heard officially from Pioneer whether or not this new Anchor Bay processing has been in their TXH-23 Receiver and others right along, or did they just start putting it in the newly built receivers as a replacement for that other system?

Everyone seems to have a different answer while some do not even believe the news release from Pioneer on Engadget, that sounded like it was just added. If you cannot believe that, what can you believe? Maybe I should call Pioneer direct?

Thanks

Dave
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post #77 of 3493
9/30/09 at 2:00pm
tagging onto the questions above....and note i'm a newbie at home theater.

can i use the 21 or 23 to video process cable tv? can any avr do that?

that is, will the 21 or 23 make a standard cable channel look better through upsampling?

thanks,

j
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post #78 of 3493
9/30/09 at 2:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmaum1 View Post

Would it benefit me to wait and get a vsx21txh with the new video processor if Im hooking up a DirecTV HD cable box, Blurray player and Xbox 360 or will it now make a difference??

Thanks ahead of time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave41200 View Post

Hello....Has anyone heard officially from Pioneer whether or not this new Anchor Bay processing has been in their TXH-23 Receiver and others right along, or did they just start putting it in the newly built receivers as a replacement for that other system?

Everyone seems to have a different answer while some do not even believe the news release from Pioneer on Engadget, that sounded like it was just added. If you cannot believe that, what can you believe? Maybe I should call Pioneer direct?

Thanks

Dave

ccotenj (Chris) stated that it is in all of originally released models named and it had up for months on Pioneer Canada site. I find that what he says, one can take to the bank. Problem with calling Pioneer is you may not get to someone who really knows. If mine doesn't have it, I'm happy with what I have.
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post #79 of 3493
9/30/09 at 2:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanglewoodtree View Post

tagging onto the questions above....and note i'm a newbie at home theater.

can i use the 21 or 23 to video process cable tv? can any avr do that?

that is, will the 21 or 23 make a standard cable channel look better through upsampling?

thanks,

j

Using composite, S video and component--Yes-- it doesn't touch HDMI which is apparently a Pioneer philosophy and fine with me.
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post #80 of 3493
9/30/09 at 2:33pm
thanks tony.

so if video comes in to the avr through hdmi, it just passes it directly to the tv?

jeff
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post #81 of 3493
9/30/09 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabkab View Post

Using composite, S video and component--Yes-- it doesn't touch HDMI which is apparently a Pioneer philosophy and fine with me.

That is the only reason why it is not fine with me

hdmi gives you ease of connectivity. It is just not 1080p and HD audio. Basically less wires to mess around. I don't want to connect my PS3/PC to the receiver with hdmi and component/optical cables so that i can use the upscaling features when the content is not HD.
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post #82 of 3493
9/30/09 at 2:51pm
Hello Again...From the comment above, am I to understand that if I just want to use 3 separate HDMI cables to hook up my TV from the cable box, and the receiver and PS3, the Pioneer TXH23 will not do the job correctly or easily, meaning I need more cables or wires to connect? Hate to sound stupid. If that is the case, being so new to this, maybe a Pioneer receiver isn't something I should purchase this week...or am I misunderstanding anything?

Should I be looking at a different company for a A/V Receiver?
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post #83 of 3493
9/30/09 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave41200 View Post

Hello....Has anyone heard officially from Pioneer whether or not this new Anchor Bay processing has been in their TXH-23 Receiver and others right along, or did they just start putting it in the newly built receivers as a replacement for that other system?

Everyone seems to have a different answer while some do not even believe the news release from Pioneer on Engadget, that sounded like it was just added. If you cannot believe that, what can you believe? Maybe I should call Pioneer direct?

Thanks

Dave

Engagehd ==>

Quote:


UPDATE: We got official word back from Pioneer -- the VSX-1019, 21, 23, 25, and 27 models have all had Anchor Bay VRS scaling from the initial production, so there's no need to go throwing your AVR out. We can't imagine why both Pioneer and Anchor Bay haven't touted this feature from day one, but if your eyes told you the new Pioneer receivers had great scaling, give yourself a point.

Anchor bays page -- missing Pioneer
http://www.anchorbaytech.com/vrs_tec...turing_vrs.php
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post #84 of 3493
9/30/09 at 6:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by matbhuvi View Post

That is the only reason why it is not fine with me

hdmi gives you ease of connectivity. It is just not 1080p and HD audio. Basically less wires to mess around. I don't want to connect my PS3/PC to the receiver with hdmi and component/optical cables so that i can use the upscaling features when the content is not HD.

Don't you think your 1080p display will do a great job with HDMI in from a PS3 passing thru the receiver? I bet it would be just as good as the level of quality any chip in any 1000 buck AVR that upconverts HDMI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave41200 View Post

Hello Again...From the comment above, am I to understand that if I just want to use 3 separate HDMI cables to hook up my TV from the cable box, and the receiver and PS3, the Pioneer TXH23 will not do the job correctly or easily, meaning I need more cables or wires to connect? Hate to sound stupid. If that is the case, being so new to this, maybe a Pioneer receiver isn't something I should purchase this week...or am I misunderstanding anything?

Should I be looking at a different company for a A/V Receiver?

Absolutely not. I had a Denon 2808ci with this upconversion function and like Pioneers approach better. Just the HDMI's is all you need.
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post #85 of 3493
9/30/09 at 9:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabkab View Post

Don't you think your 1080p display will do a great job with HDMI in from a PS3 passing thru the receiver? I bet it would be just as good as the level of quality any chip in any 1000 buck AVR that upconverts HDMI.



Absolutely not. I had a Denon 2808ci with this upconversion function and like Pioneers approach better. Just the HDMI's is all you need.

If i am not wrong, Denon 2808ci does only the video scaling using the Faroudja FLi2310. So it is comparable to the pio elites in video performance. If you deal mostly with HD contents you don't need to bother much. Most people would get satisfied for DVD quality contents too. You don't need ABT2010 / DVDO Edge kind of video processors. If you deal with quality less than that, then it makes more sense to invest in better video processor. Just my 2 cents.
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post #86 of 3493
10/1/09 at 5:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave41200 View Post

Hello Again...From the comment above, am I to understand that if I just want to use 3 separate HDMI cables to hook up my TV from the cable box, and the receiver and PS3, the Pioneer TXH23 will not do the job correctly or easily, meaning I need more cables or wires to connect? Hate to sound stupid. If that is the case, being so new to this, maybe a Pioneer receiver isn't something I should purchase this week...or am I misunderstanding anything?

Should I be looking at a different company for a A/V Receiver?

Pioneer is always a great in audio processing. It looks like the ABT 1015 does good job in video scaling and it does not do conversion. I mean, it doesn't have "Anchor Bay's proprietary Precision Deinterlacing™ that provides five-field motion adaptive and edge adaptive processing for an artifact-free viewing experience".

It "sounds" like It is bit inferior. I am not sure whether deinterlacing is done through different way. The problem here is missing proper documentation rather than performance. For example, SC-05 has Faroudja DCDi video processor provides the deinterlacing and scaling of analog inputs. At least, you need 1 hdmi cable to go from AVR to the display. I think i'll still go with vsx-21.
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post #87 of 3493
10/1/09 at 8:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by matbhuvi View Post

Pioneer is always a great in audio processing. It looks like the ABT 1015 does good job in video scaling and it does not do conversion. I mean, it doesn't have "Anchor Bay's proprietary Precision Deinterlacing that provides five-field motion adaptive and edge adaptive processing for an artifact-free viewing experience".

It "sounds" like It is bit inferior. I am not sure whether deinterlacing is done through different way. The problem here is missing proper documentation rather than performance. For example, SC-05 has Faroudja DCDi video processor provides the deinterlacing and scaling of analog inputs. At least, you need 1 hdmi cable to go from AVR to the display. I think i'll still go with vsx-21.

Ahhh. So the ABT 1015 will do the scaling, but we do not know what chip is responsible for the deinterlacing. Either way, I just got a 21 for a killer deal, so I am excited.
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post #88 of 3493
10/1/09 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by matbhuvi View Post

That is the only reason why it is not fine with me

hdmi gives you ease of connectivity. It is just not 1080p and HD audio. Basically less wires to mess around. I don't want to connect my PS3/PC to the receiver with hdmi and component/optical cables so that i can use the upscaling features when the content is not HD.

this is why we are lucky that we have options...

since it is a dealbreaker for you, you are fortunate that there are other avr's that do what you want...

as much as i like pioneer equipment, i would never try to talk someone like you into one. it makes no sense. one of your "primary needs" can't be fulfilled, so why even look at a pio?

however, since i cannot resist throwing in my 2 cents...

this comes from someone who is, ummm, picky about video quality... imo, you are worrying way too much about the video processing part... unless you are the type of person who pauses and pixel peeps, it's unlikely that in everyday viewing that you'd be able to consistently differentiate between any of the video processing in any of your components...

ymmv... just keep in mind that "night and day" isn't really "night and day" in the great majority of cases...
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post #89 of 3493
10/1/09 at 9:57am
Hi Again...since I have never done any of this before, I do not know what my needs are when you mention whether or not the Pioneer Elite TXH 23 is what I should consider or some other Receiver such as the Onkyo 876 which is at a killer price.

I do not even know what you mean by conversion and I see the Elite does not do that if I understand the few posts listed above.

All I know out of the starting gate is that I will be watching my TV 75% of the time through my Time Warner Cable Box, watching regular HD channels, sports and some movies. The other 25% will be devoted to DVD's or Blue Rays through my new slim PS3, along with listening to music from my I-Pod.

Really, pretty simple. Not into movies that much, but into old black and white movies and old TV shows.

So, with that in mind, does this make my receiver choice any easier for you to make a suggestion to me?

Thanks Again
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post #90 of 3493
10/1/09 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by matbhuvi View Post

Thanks. I am yet to decide between 21 and 23.

23 has
+ 1 hdmi input
+ 1 hdmi output
+ 1 zone output (3 zones)
+ Multi channel PQLS vs 2 channel.

I hope i haven't missed any.

Based on this, i think i'll go for vsx-21

I believe the Elite 23 has two HDMI outputs. That's why I'm considering giving up my Pioneer 1018 for this one. I have a 56" LCD Panny tv and a drop down 119" projection system, hence I need the HDMI outputs.
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