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Sherwood R-972 User Thread - Page 6

post #151 of 3154
Thread Starter 
What happened to this thread in the last week????
Follow up comments in comparison to Noah's experience:
1. I did not have as much trouble with initial setup. Once I had video out set to HDMI and could get to the OSD it seemed to go fairly smoothly.
2. The remote is hard to use with respect to small buttons / labels and orientation of labels to its functional button but is best way to drive the R-972 - buttons on front are not very intuitive - I do not use them at all. I've pretty much switch over to my Harmony at this point
3. The manual is not that great either - I did not use it a great deal and took what my wife would describe as the male (don't ask for directions) approach - just start pushing buttons and see what happens.
4. I did find I could glitch it fairly easily- I repeated the Trinnov setup many times and found some times it would not calibrate (showing 0's for some speakers) - hard rebooting (unplugging it for several minutes)would solve this issue for me - it only happened a couple of times..
5. There is not quick way to do a true A-B comparison with Trinnov on - off due to the delay going into and out of setup / OSD where audio / video is lost. Once you get to Quick audio adjust in the setup and change to Trinnov on or off for comparison it is quicker to come out by just hitting setup again on the remote which takes you straight out rather than arrowing up through all the exits in the hierarchal menu but there is still a significant delay.
6. Trinnov on - off is not earth shaking dramatically different. My wife with her eyes closed can barely notice the difference. I do note the voices are more discretely imaged and the sound stage wider with Trinnov on. Aiming of the microphone with calibration is very sensitive. Slight changes in aiming of the red dot on the front of the Mic in the x-y axis result in significant changes in voice localization. My room is very symmetric - front speakers (Snell CIV) are 12 ft in front of couch and 6.5 ft to each side of listening position. Surrounds are not true surrounds - Boston Acoustic bookshelf Bravos - side surrounds on 10 ft ceiling 7 ft to each side of listing position. Back surrounds on Ceiling 3 ft behind listening position - they rest against a beam that extends down 1 ft. But back wall is open to the kitchen.
7. The Mic cord is short and plug on the back is very inconvenient - I have added a RJ45 plug under the front lip of my cabinet with a Cat 5e cable to the back of the R-972 mic plug and it works well.
8. The button to change the remote to control your CD unit is at the top of the remote. The button to set the R-972 to the CD input is towards the bottom but the labels for the inputs are confusing.
9. Which speakers are on and whether you get all the surround modes is all within the setup for each input source. If say for example for an input source you have Auto surround turned on when you watch that source the R-972 will pick the surround mode and you will not be able to change it manually unless you go back in to setup for the inputs. There are 3 pages of options for each input - you have to be careful what you pick in that menu as it affects what you can and can't do when watching each input.

So I am learning to get around it well. I still have scaling issues. If other folks ever get them I am happy to try and answer questions on set up based on my experience, it is just hard with my schedule to post during the week.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #152 of 3154
"I did find I could glitch it fairly easily- I repeated the Trinnov setup many times and found some times it would not calibrate (showing 0’s for some speakers) – hard rebooting (unplugging it for several minutes)would solve this issue for me – it only happened a couple of times.."

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind if it happens again.

"There is not quick way to do a true A-B comparison with Trinnov on – off ..."

Jeff suggested a slick way - set up duplicate inputs that use the same Trinnov setup and Level/Delay turned on, but one w/Remapping on and one with it off.
post #153 of 3154
noah says: I only watch BD or DVD's on a JVC player w/very good upconversion, so I'm not motivated to spend a lot of time delving into the video, but I'll try a few basic comparisons.

Thank mate - my wife is anxious to get her low-def BBC America Dr. Who and robin hood actors looking their best. hmmm
post #154 of 3154
deegggo,

"...I repeated the Trinnov setup many times and found some times it would not calibrate (showing 0’s for some speakers)..."

Did it ever keep repeating the noise burst and then give no distances/angles?

Did you ever get a f/w upgrade or did they tell you you needed to wait for the one I'm waiting for?
post #155 of 3154
Scott,

"my wife is anxious to get her low-def BBC America Dr. Who and robin hood actors looking their best."

Actually that could be pretty easy; I don't have cable or sat but I could let you know how SD OTA looks on a 133" screen.

Or maybe not - someone tell me if they've they turned off analog broadcasting in the States.
post #156 of 3154
Hang in there Noah.
I know it must be frustrating to say the least.
You may not want to bother, but until the FW is available is there any way to set up\\calibrate the speakers the "old fashioned" way, i.e., Rat Shack meter and test tones from the Sherwood?
If nothing else it will give you good idea of the SQ of the R-972.
post #157 of 3154
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Scott,

"my wife is anxious to get her low-def BBC America Dr. Who and robin hood actors looking their best."

Actually that could be pretty easy; I don't have cable or sat but I could let you know how SD OTA looks on a 133" screen.

Or maybe not - someone tell me if they've they turned off analog broadcasting in the States.

WOW! That is the first time I have ever heard of a woman into Dr. Who!
post #158 of 3154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

deegggo,

"...I repeated the Trinnov setup many times and found some times it would not calibrate (showing 0's for some speakers)..."

Did it ever keep repeating the noise burst and then give no distances/angles?

Did you ever get a f/w upgrade or did they tell you you needed to wait for the one I'm waiting for?

The upgrade I have for the Main Micom file is R972main01717_2.mot.
I had run the calibration several times over several days to check the variability. There was one day it would go through all the tone bursts like it was working - the standard 3 bursts for each speaker then all 0's on the results. I got frustrated with it and unplugged and went away for several hours - when I came back it worked. I had similiar issues when I added a Emotiva XPA-3 Amp for my front /center speakers - when I first ran it, I did not get 0's but really screwy numbers compared to without the amp and it sounded like almost all of the sound came out of the surrounds. I reran that several days later after unplugging it and it worked. I think the unplugging had an something to do with it but it could just be random.
post #159 of 3154
Nothing new?

noah, how's it coming?
post #160 of 3154
Yeah, disturbing silence...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Nothing new?

noah, how's it coming?
post #161 of 3154
I think noah katz returned his unit? How many people here have one of these receivers?
post #162 of 3154
crickets... are never a good thing when a user is having problems.
post #163 of 3154
I heard (earlier in this thread) that the revised firmware was expected on Oct 24.

So, giving Noah (and hopefully others) a couple additional days to apply and re-test - I doubt we'll hear anything new for another full week or so...
post #164 of 3154
"I think noah katz returned his unit? "

That's a nice bit of groundless rumor-mongering.

I've been swamped at work, and getting inconsistent results, so it's hard to come up w/definitive conclusions.

Also I've only had time to watch one movie (Push on BD).

And not sure how much is valid pending f/w update.

But briefly: The first Trinnov setup (that worked, w/too high mike position) killed the bass.

Turning up the level on my sub amp from middle to full made it louder but it was obvious the low bass (I'd say below 50 Hz) was missing.

A second one trying the soundstage rotation trick failed miserably.

I rotated the mike to face what was the right side wall, between what was the right front and right side surround, and the sound ended up coming out of what were the front center and right speakers at floor level.

I also tried a setup turning the mike 180 deg to face the back wall; it wasn't any different than the previous one.

That's an even worse failure; it couldn't even find front.

A second setup w/normal orientation and longer cable let me get a couple of feet farther back, but I still had to have the mike about a foot and a half higher than ear level to work.

I raised the mike in 6" increments; interestingly, there was a transition before the one that worked fully (meaning it gave elevation and azimuth for both side surrounds) where the left side surround gave 4 tone bursts; 3 means it will work and 10 means it won't.

The bass is a lot better w/this one, but still lacks the meatiness I was getting w/ the Onkyo 705.

I guess I should say more about the equipment (I'll add pic's when I have more time):

Fronts: Northcreek Rhythm's; 7" Scanspeak 8545(35?)I forget), D2905 tweeter

Side surrounds: NHT SuperZero w.Linnaeum dipole tweeters

Back surrounds: Newform 630's; Scanspeak 8545 7" woofer, Newform 30" ribbon

Sub: Dual Maelstrom-X 18's in 14 cf sealed box at back of room, which is roughly 22' square, opening to rest of house at the back.

Sub amp: Peavey CS4080HZ, 1200 W/ch into 8 ohms, which is how the Mael's are wired.

The current setup is a bit bright; I just now turned on CinemaEQ.

The basic good sound quality is still apparent; as soon as Push started a friend who is familiar w/my system said "It sounds crisper and cleaner".

Gotta go.
post #165 of 3154
Thanks for taking the time to update Noah. I'm still on the fence about this one (big time). I was really hoping for some good comments about the trinnov implementation, but so far sounds disappointing. Hopefully, the supposed firmware will fix the problems. Have you contacted Jeff to see what he had to say?
post #166 of 3154
A week ago he said "a week to 10 days"; I'm not going to bug him before that.
post #167 of 3154
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"I think noah katz returned his unit? "

That's a nice bit of groundless rumor-mongering.

What? What groundless rumor Cowboy? I used a ????????????? It is a question mark As in asking a question.

I have a question, how long have you had the receiver? Also, if they don't come up with a positive update, would you return your receiver, or, are you happy with its operation, or are you out of time and can't return it?

Thanks!
post #168 of 3154
Sorry, B&W700guy -- it didn't sound like a question. Maybe your post was still in Beta.
post #169 of 3154
"how long have you had the receiver? Also, if they don't come up with a positive update, would you return your receiver, or, are you happy with its operation, or are you out of time and can't return it?"

I've had it for almost 2 weeks.

Even in it's current condition I haven't done enough comparing with/without Trinnov to know whether I want to keep it.

I don't know if I have return privileges or not.

Jeff said they'd take care of me, which I assume means I can return it if it's buggy, but I hadn't considered the possibility of Trinnov working properly and not wanting to keep it.
post #170 of 3154
Noah,

I'm cheering you on as I am sure others are. Don't let the nabobs get you down. It will all work out. All the best!
post #171 of 3154
How can you be sure, that everything will come out as expected ?
He (Noah) should do, what fits him and his needs (and wallet) best...
Nobody wants to spent money, if it ends up (unexpectedly) as a "lemon"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kokishin View Post

Noah,

I'm cheering you on as I am sure others are. Don't let the nabobs get you down. It will all work out. All the best!
post #172 of 3154
I talked to Jeff last night and he said that the new firmware should be available early next week.
post #173 of 3154
I've been reluctant to post due to the rather impressive amount of trolling on the other thread, but it seems like there are still some people who are very interested in this component regardless of shipping delays.

While I am not an audio component expert (my soldering skills are for emergency use only) and I can not say that I moved any walls in my living room to accommodate proper speaker placement, I do appreciate great sounding systems for music and movies. I am in the live event industry, and I know enough about good sound and video to be dangerous, but I also know that there are diminishing returns as you spend more and more money.

I've been a McIntosh fan for years - due in large part to my father and best friend - and have a couple of their components for my office stereo, I really wasn't going to spend that on a new home theater when we moved from an apartment to a house this summer. I know that there is a diminishing return as you spend more and more on these components, and also that there is great gear to be found for a reasonable amount of money.

That being said, my wife understood that this was a chance for me to have a more enjoyable living-room system than our Sony Home Theater in-a-box.

I spent quite a bit of time looking around at the various options and price ranges available. Based on my research and some pre-existing personal preferences, I ended up choosing the following components for the new system:

Sherwood Newcastle R-972
SVS MTS-01 5.1 Speaker System
SVS PB12-Plus Sub
LG BD-390 Blu-Ray
Sony 46" XBR10
AppleTV (Existing)
Nintendo Wii (Existing)
Logitech Harmony Remote
FiOS DVR

The most challenging component to choose (and acquire) was the receiver. I was very excited about the things I was hearing about the Trinnov optimization and everything I had read about previous SN receivers indicated that this would be one of the best products around (in that price range) if I would not be using outboard amplification.

At about the time I was purchasing all of my components, it was revealed on this forum that the first consumer-bound shipment had reached the US. Jeff Hipps helped me to find one in my area.

I won't go through setup in detail, as others seem to have covered it well. But here are a few things I would add...

Setup is very straight-forward, though the manual needs to be re-written. This is fine for anyone here, but my mom would probably give up before getting Trinnov set up. (If you're reading about a receiver on AVS Forum, you probably have some clue as to how this stuff operates)

I did run into a couple of the previously mentioned issues, and SN quickly helped me get updated software loaded, which helped quite a bit.

I run HDMI through the receiver for all video (except the Wii) and I have the receiver set to Video Bypass. So, I can't say much about the video upscaling built in. (Between the LG and the Sony, I just don't feel a need to add any processing in the middle.)

But the reason I really bought this thing is Trinnov, right? So what do I think?

It's amazing.

With caveats.

This receiver sounded great out of the box (prior to Trinnov optimization). There was no perceptible noise and it had more than enough power reserve to handle everything I could throw at it. It did a great job of choosing the correct audio formats as I switched discs and sources.

Without Trinnov I would say this box is as good or better than any high-end mass-market receiver (Pioneer Elite, Sony ES, Yamaha, etc.) I've personally heard.

Then I set up Trinnov.

It took me a couple of tries to deal with the mic properly. (While it is possible to extend it, I do think the cord should have been at least ten feet longer for typical setups and that the jack should have been hidden in the front panel.) At first I set it on some pillows at my listening position, but I think it needed something more rigid, as the room readings were way off after that. I ended up using my camera tripod and setting it on the floor immediately in front of my regular spot on the couch.

My wait for the room processing was well below the estimated 25 minutes - probably closer to five or ten.

I set the Blu-Ray input to Trinnov Cinema 3D.

I immediately heard the difference. It was like my speakers disappeared. Suddenly I was in a theater. Everything moved through the listening space smoothly. It began to sound more like a cinema or a studio.

Unfortunately, it also sounded like my sub had been turned off.

I probably re-mapped the room half a dozen times thinking it was something I was doing wrong.

I then got in touch with Mr. Hipps who said that, yes, this was to be expected. We had a long discussion about bass management and the various reasons they can't or won't allow certain adjustments when you are in Trinnov mode.

At the end of the conversation, we both came around this...Most people like their subs about 6db higher than the audio standards call for. The best way to do this on the R-972 is to tune the system with your sub set at 1/4 or 1/2 total volume. After you've done the Trinnov mic calibration, put on a movie and crank up your sub until it sounds the way you want it to.

Admittedly, this is a hack. But you'll have all of the benefits of Trinnov (and yes, it really does make that much of a difference) with some added control over your sub.

I, personally, still hope that they will add a little extra control back in while you're in Trinnov mode. But I'll still be a very happy customer if they don't.

I am extremely happy with my purchase, and I think this is one of the greatest values in receivers available right now. I'm sure that there might be better products out there if you feel the need to be able to tweak every setting. (This takes a lot of control out of your hands) But if you want to set up a great sounding system for a relatively low hit to your bank account, this is a great way to do it.

Questions?

-Phil
post #174 of 3154
Thanks very much Phil.

since you asked, two questions...

-Does unit have option for run a phantom front center?
-I'd anxious for anyone's impression on upscaling quality from a low def program from your Fios.

Maybe I just happen to have a lousy LCD (Samsung?), but I find in-reciever processing of 480P signals to be a much-have... so I want to make sure the r-972's doing a reasaonble job in this area.
post #175 of 3154
I believe that it will 'fake' a front channel, but it might not do it in combination with Trinnov. Many of the processing/adjustment features are disabled when you enable Trinnov.

However, you can enable and disable Trinnov on a per-input basis. So, you can set a different default for your FiOS input than for your DVD/Blu-Ray.

I don't really watch any SD programming off of my FiOS box so I can't respond to the other question.
post #176 of 3154
scott911:

The R-972 will support a phantom center with Trinnov either on or off.

Jeff
post #177 of 3154
"Unfortunately, it also sounded like my sub had been turned off.

... tune the system with your sub set at 1/4 or 1/2 total volume. After you've done the Trinnov mic calibration, put on a movie and crank up your sub until it sounds the way you want it to."

That handles the level but doesn't address the missing low bass.

I also don't see the rationale of not allowing low freq adjustment w/Trinnov engaged.

I believe maging cues are largely from freq >1kHz, so I don't see how altering bass response could be a problem.

And of course this is recognized by the standard of a single bass channel.

FYI bass/treble controls are not available w/Trinnov, either.

Jeff, what's the story on how Trinnov works with different surround modes? Is it overlaid on the currently selected one (DPLIIx, DTS Neo 6, etc), or are they not used at all and Trinnov does it's own processing, i.e. generate 7.1 from 5.1?
post #178 of 3154
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

How can you be sure, that everything will come out as expected ?
He (Noah) should do, what fits him and his needs (and wallet) best...
Nobody wants to spent money, if it ends up (unexpectedly) as a "lemon"...

Maybe my post was not as clear as it could have been. I was just being supportive of Noah's efforts and patience to get the 972 operating correctly. I appreciate his efforts. Noah is doing all of us a good deed by keeping us up to date.
post #179 of 3154
Can someone recommend a BD movie w/a good variety of surround effects to use for comparison?
post #180 of 3154
I often use Pearl Harbor. Seamless pans front to back or side to side. Outstanding dialogue intelligibility. Dolby has two demo discs that are very well done--mostly with live music. I also use the Ramsey Lewis, Jazz Legends disc. The opening cut has Al Jarreau and Kurt Elling starting with an a capella duet. With Trinnov off, you should easily be able to hear a misplaced center channel speaker. There's also a good solo piano cut from Chic Corea. You should clearly hear the difference in soundstage width by moving from Cinema (plus or minus 22.5 degrees L/R front channel spacing) to ITU Surround remapping (plus or minus 30 degrees). For a simple test, listen to the audience applause with the EQ off and then on when Chic finishes playing.

Jeff
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