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Sherwood R-972 User Thread - Page 87

post #2581 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I see;).With Trinnov and Dirac Live systems you still have to spring for the calibration mic/kit and there even more costly and Dirac won't even sell the "installers" kit to consumers.
I cannot speak for Trinnov, but for Dirac Live a kit of sufficient resolution (recommended by one of the engineers involved in the design of the Datasat unit) can be had at Ebay for $400-$450 (Audix TM1 and CEntrance MicPort Pro). If I need any support, the vendor I purchased it from is able to provide me with any assistance I required.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2582 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

It's worse than that, Steve. The Audyssey Pro customer certificate graphs are single channel (except for combined subwoofers 1+2), and are 1/6th smoothing predicted rather than actually observed post-calibration curves. Chris K. has been quoted as saying that they're 1/6th, BTW on the Pro software. The 'before' curves are based on measurements, but otherwise run similarly.

Given the lack of resolution, the focus on frequency response, and the single channel plotting, the general consensus on the Pro thread is that the post-Audyssey curves on the Certificate are essentially worthless.

As far as the Audyssey Pro graphs,do you have a link to Chris K's quote of it using 1/6 smoothing? I've seen him mention before that they were equivalent to 1/3 smoothing.Did this change?
post #2583 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

I cannot speak for Trinnov, but for Dirac Live a kit of sufficient resolution (recommended by one of the engineers involved in the design of the Datasat unit) can be had at Ebay for $400-$450 (Audix TM1 and CEntrance MicPort Pro). If I need any support, the vendor I purchased it from is able to provide me with any assistance I required.

I believe Carl said you could assemble a kit from recommended mics and pre-amps+the purchase of the Dirac Live software for the Datasat AP-20.The AP-20 is no longer being made available to the average consumer.Only to the professional industry.You now have to purchase the RS20i.I believe the only way you can now get the Dirac Live software directly is to become a certified installer and go through the training program.I believe it's an entire calibration kit with the Dirac Live software that you have to purchase for around $2000.

Unless that's now changed.I think their was talk of a consumer user kit being made available in the future for those who wanted to do it themselves.
Edited by StevenLansing - 5/11/13 at 12:46am
post #2584 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

I think the conversation got crossed with another because I never asked that.

It was someone else that asked.Sorry about that.
post #2585 of 3156
Curt,

Is Trinnov a non-trivial linear phase or nearly linear phase system?

Is it minimum-phase?
post #2586 of 3156

The AP20 only does DTS (Datasat) and No Dolby Digital or other Dolby formats, so you wouldn't want that for a home processor.  This has to do with licensing fees as Dolby isn't going to license them the decoder for commercial use as they want to sell their own equipment for theaters. Vice versa is try too, Datasat is not going to license anything to Dolby wither.  For consumers the RS20 has both Datasat and Dolby formats.  The installer kit is $2500 and includes 3 days training, and there is also the cost of travel since it is done at their facility.  This is why it is only sold to installers willing to make the investment in time and money. A VERY nice system though.

post #2587 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

With that enabled one of my dogs found the tornado scene in X-Men 2 quite disturbing. He perked right up and starting following the path of tornados, trying to look in every direction at once as the tornados moved around.

LOL. That's the best description of the effect of Trinnov that I've seen yet.
post #2588 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

The AP20 only does DTS (Datasat) and No Dolby Digital or other Dolby formats, so you wouldn't want that for a home processor.  This has to do with licensing fees as Dolby isn't going to license them the decoder for commercial use as they want to sell their own equipment for theaters. Vice versa is true too, Datasat is not going to license anything to Dolby either.  For consumers the RS20 has both Datasat and Dolby formats.  The installer kit is $2500 and includes 3 days training, and there is also the cost of travel since it is done at their facility.  This is why it is only sold to installers willing to make the investment in time and money. A VERY nice system though.
While it does not change the conclusion that the AP20 is not well suited for home use, it does indeed have Dolby Digital.

Whether RS-20i has the Datasat format or not (a.k.a. DTS's optical film system based on apt-X) is probably of little interest to most consumers, as it is not easy to get hold of the Datasat/DTS theatrical CDs.

There is no need for any cross-licensing of decoders for cinema processors since 35mm prints support all three digital formats, Dolby, Datasat, and SDDS.
post #2589 of 3156

Roger, that is what they told us in the training and it was geared more for their commercial applications.  I didn't know the film carried all three formats, that makes sense though.

post #2590 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

LOL. That's the best description of the effect of Trinnov that I've seen yet.

LOL, it does drive the point.

To StevenLansing's point, I would also love to see comparisons of different Room EQ systems, although I am not sure if measuring or ABX would be the best methodology (I'd lean to ABX, since I can't see an easy agreement as to measurement methodology, plus measurements were the reason some sold $2k power cords).

I really find that Trinnov has made the greatest audio difference in my system of any component other than speakers/subs. It has tamed two very reflective rooms, without making the perceived sound lifeless and has created a sound field which at times is weirdly enveloping. This is the first system which has managed to get the bass response to be overall even and "true" sounding.

I might be hearing things, obviously, although my wife did make a rare unprompted comment on how the sound is noticeably more pleasant at louder volumes and how the dialog is clearer than before.

The R-972 has been about as reliable as other brands so far and Sherwood's tech support has been considerably better than the support of most other brands I have had experience with.

I don't know that I'd run out and spend $10+k for a stand-alone Trinnov box, but the R-972, because of Trinnov, is a steal for $600, and now that I have experienced it, I would consider it very competitively priced at its original MSRP.

Receiver connectivity has become a non-issue for me, since even the best networked receiver I have seen seems primitive compared to one of the popular $99 streaming boxes, like Apple TV (which, combined with an iPd/iPhone and AirPlay can serve as a rather full-fledged HT box).

I dream that Apple would buy Trinnov and build the technology into a modular Apple TV, where you can add small, wireless Class D monoblocks for as many speakers as you need. This would make a better buy than the rumored Apple TV, IMO smile.gif
post #2591 of 3156
Now, some TV channels have very low center channel volume levels. Any way to increase center channel volume if Trinnov is on?

Otherwise, as I'm currently only using the pre-outs, I'm tempted to hook a speaker to the center speaker outs and run some wires over to my chair.
post #2592 of 3156
With Trinnov EQ on there is no way to adjust the individual speaker levels.
post #2593 of 3156
If you are using pre-outs, the simplest way would be to use active speakers (and change their volume through the speaker's controls) or amps with "volume controls".
post #2594 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

With Trinnov EQ on there is no way to adjust the individual speaker levels.
It isn't Trinnov itself that has this issue, but the way it is implemented in the R972.
post #2595 of 3156
You can't change the crossovers with Trinnov on either right?
post #2596 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

You can't change the crossovers with Trinnov on either right?

Right. Just curious, why do you want to?
post #2597 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

Right. Just curious, why do you want to?

I just finished building my own speakers, and they are full range to 20hz flat. I'd like to be able to switch between full range and 80hz crossover with Trinnov on.

Build thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1455380/td12x-seos-tower-speaker-build
post #2598 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

I just finished building my own speakers, and they are full range to 20hz flat. I'd like to be able to switch between full range and 80hz crossover with Trinnov on.

Build thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1455380/td12x-seos-tower-speaker-build
Unfortunately, unless you buy a standalone Trinnov unit, you won't be able to do this.
post #2599 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Unfortunately, unless you buy a standalone Trinnov unit, you won't be able to do this.
Actually, there are ways to work around this problem. If he uses a high-pass (either passively (x-over) or actively (digital x-over)) on the speakers and makes high-pass operational only when he chooses to listen to it with an 80hz x-over, then he could set one of the calibrations with the x-over on and the other with the x-over off. Not clean and automatic, but a small price to pay if he wants trinnov without paying a few thousand for a stand alone unit.
post #2600 of 3156
I have some questions that I was hoping some of you guy could help me with as I am considering buying an R-972. First, how does Trinnov work compared to Audyseey? I am not asking which one sounds better, but rather, how does the actual EQ work compared to one another?
Also, will the R-972 let me adjust the crossovers with Trinnov engaged? How does the subwoofer EQ'ing with the R-972 work compared to SubEQ from Audyssey? Does the Trinnov EQ the subwoofer in a similar way?
post #2601 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I have some questions that I was hoping some of you guy could help me with as I am considering buying an R-972. First, how does Trinnov work compared to Audyseey? I am not asking which one sounds better, but rather, how does the actual EQ work compared to one another?
Also, will the R-972 let me adjust the crossovers with Trinnov engaged? How does the subwoofer EQ'ing with the R-972 work compared to SubEQ from Audyssey? Does the Trinnov EQ the subwoofer in a similar way?

I still have a Onkyo 3008 with XT32 and SubEQ and use to have a Onkyo 5508 pre-pro in my other system, both of which I replaced with the 972. From going back and forth I personally feel the 3008 and 5508 are better for music but for movies and TV the 972 gives me the biggest sound field I have ever heard. I think you will find that most users who are hooked on Trinnov will point out the enveloping sound to be the biggest draw, I really can't go back to anything else because of it. The music preference is not huge in favor of XT32 and I have really begun to like the 972 a lot more for music the more I tweak the settings but I don't think it will ever match my favorite music pre-pro's.

I also noticed XT32 with the Onkyo's did a better job on my subs than Trinnov but it was not a huge difference.

You can't adjust the crossovers, distance or levels once Trinnov is engaged, if you like to tweek then this might not be for you. I have 2 different systems and Trinnov has done a great job on both that I don't mind not being able to change the settings. I just always have to add the 6db bass boost as the normal level is always way too low.

There are some here that won't give up what Trinnov can do via the 972, others have been plagued with so many problems they are happy to move on to something else. I personally have owned the Onkyo's I have already mentioned along with the Marantz 7005, Denon 4311 and many high end pre-pro's before that but I would not replace the 972 with any of them unless it was a music only system. I am crossing my fingers I am not forced to replace it due to problems, so far so good though with over a year with my first and 6 months with the second I picked up for another system.
post #2602 of 3156
Is anyone that has powered subs in their speakers using SW+ instead of normal in their settings?
post #2603 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

It isn't Trinnov itself that has this issue, but the way it is implemented in the R972.

I'm aware of that.The processing power and design of R-972 are too limited to perform all the pre or post audio adjustments that the stand-alone units can provide.It's that type of adjustability that has to be sacrificed on a cheaper platform like the R-972 as well as other things.rolleyes.gif

You really can't make comparisons between the current state of Trinnov EQ or it's functionality and the older stripped down variation used in the R-972.They just don't have similar performance paramenters.
post #2604 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkpro View Post

Is anyone that has powered subs in their speakers using SW+ instead of normal in their settings?
Tried setting to + mode before running the set up. Killed all the bass from my Def Techs. Did a reset and am going to try again. I think the option I want is the flat hex file with SW+. I am not sure whether to try the +6 or not. I like bass in my system, just not "fake added" bass. May go to +3 with SW+. I tried +6 with SW+, and it seemed to muddy the dialogue, which surprised me because the Sherwood really has a strong center presence which I like.
post #2605 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I'm aware of that.The processing power and design of R-972 are too limited to perform all the pre or post audio adjustments that the stand-alone units can provide.It's that type of adjustability that has to be sacrificed on a cheaper platform like the R-972 as well as other things.rolleyes.gif

You really can't make comparisons between the current state of Trinnov EQ or it's functionality and the older stripped down variation used in the R-972.They just don't have similar performance paramenters.
I know you know that. I was being more specific.

We regulars in this thread know you have no praise for the R972, so I was giving you another chance to take shot. You never fail when given the chance. rolleyes.gif
post #2606 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkpro View Post

Tried setting to + mode before running the set up. Killed all the bass from my Def Techs. Did a reset and am going to try again. I think the option I want is the flat hex file with SW+. I am not sure whether to try the +6 or not. I like bass in my system, just not "fake added" bass. May go to +3 with SW+. I tried +6 with SW+, and it seemed to muddy the dialogue, which surprised me because the Sherwood really has a strong center presence which I like.
So you want the full range signal sent to the speakers, and below the crossover to the sub, correct?

I'm am going to guess that Trinnov in the R972 will not let you do that.
post #2607 of 3156
quote name="mjaudio" url="/t/1179978/sherwood-r-972-user-thread/2580#post_23333791"]
I still have a Onkyo 3008 with XT32 and SubEQ and use to have a Onkyo 5508 pre-pro in my other system, both of which I replaced with the 972. From going back and forth I personally feel the 3008 and 5508 are better for music but for movies and TV the 972 gives me the biggest sound field I have ever heard. I think you will find that most users who are hooked on Trinnov will point out the enveloping sound to be the biggest draw, I really can't go back to anything else because of it. The music preference is not huge in favor of XT32 and I have really begun to like the 972 a lot more for music the more I tweak the settings but I don't think it will ever match my favorite music pre-pro's.

I also noticed XT32 with the Onkyo's did a better job on my subs than Trinnov but it was not a huge difference.

You can't adjust the crossovers, distance or levels once Trinnov is engaged, if you like to tweek then this might not be for you. I have 2 different systems and Trinnov has done a great job on both that I don't mind not being able to change the settings. I just always have to add the 6db bass boost as the normal level is always way too low.

There are some here that won't give up what Trinnov can do via the 972, others have been plagued with so many problems they are happy to move on to something else. I personally have owned the Onkyo's I have already mentioned along with the Marantz 7005, Denon 4311 and many high end pre-pro's before that but I would not replace the 972 with any of them unless it was a music only system. I am crossing my fingers I am not forced to replace it due to problems, so far so good though with over a year with my first and 6 months with the second I picked up for another system.[/quote]


I have had my R-972 for about 13 months now and I consider it the single most significant audio purchase. I am still learning this amazing machine. My observation was similar to yours about the R-972 with music, at least via HDMI. Although, I was never completely convinced I had it setup the best it could be for my listening preferences anyway. Then one day I tried analog L/R out of my CD player into the R-972's analog "CD" L/R inputs. This was a game changer for me in listening to music. It was the missing link I was looking for. Hooked up this way I discovered how great the features "Remastering", and "Pure Audio" really are . Remastering, for those that don't know, doubles the resolution of the source. So, a 44.1 CD is now heard at 88.2 and so on with a cap at 24/192. Pure Audio took the sound to even another level. I did not hear much of a difference with HDMI, but in analog stereo it is unmistakable. Cutting off all of the video processing circuitry made a difference here. But the rear kicker here is, is that Trinnov works in this two channel analog stereo mode. Do What? That right! Guys, do you realize what a game changer in analog audio this is? In another room I have a HK AVR-354 powering another system. But HK's EZset EQ room correction only works using HDMI. Once you use it in analog you lose room eq capability. I heard that Audyssey works this same way as well, but I don't actually know from experience. But to listen to two channel analog stereo in 2.1 with Remastering and Pure Audio is awesome enough in itself, but to also be to have Trinnov EQ in two channel analog as well is mind blowing to me! I like listening in "Audiophile 2" where the sub and speaker's frequencies at 300hz, and below only, are EQ'd. In my room this sounds really good. Also, sometimes in combo with these setting I use "MCH" that takes the two channel stereo mode and divides it throughout my 5.1 system for a nice surround sound affect. It just keeps getting better. I am so glad I took the leap of faith and bought one of these.
post #2608 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I know you know that. I was being more specific.

We regulars in this thread know you have no praise for the R972, so I was giving you another chance to take shot. You never fail when given the chance. rolleyes.gif

Do you really? I have praise for Trinnov's re-mapping.biggrin.gif As far as the R-972 is concerned,I call a spade a spade when I see one.I think it's a shame that Sherwood released these buggers'(literally) to the public knowing that they have these issues.Sorry,but I don't believe for a minute that they didn't know about most of these issues.They made a gamble to release it that way and lost.The real genius about the whole thing though is that Trinnov get's the benefit of the exposure and praise that allows them to aim people towards their products and rightfully so.While the Sherwood/Newcasle brand well hmmmm....you know that story! Or maybe you don't ..rolleyes.gif

I don't know how you come up with the assumption that I was taking a shot by elaborating on my response in response to yours lol!

But now that you've decided to try and make it a point.....speaking of failures how are you and your R-972 doing.... and what's that thumping sound! Now you can complain about me taking a shot at you clueless!wink.gif

Why don't you go play junior moderator back somewhere else, little Napoleon tongue.gif

I apologize to the forum for the interruption.
post #2609 of 3156
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

.... and what's that thumping sound!

I got this thumping sound from my sub after connecting an extra center speaker to the amp of the R-972. I only use the R-972 as a pre/pro normally but I wanted to boost the level of the center channel even with Trinnov on. I turned the R-972 off then I tried disconnecting the extra center to see if the sound came back and it didn't but the a/v room gets too much use for me to do a proper comparison.

Could there possibly be a relationship?

BTW, the boosting by adding another speaker worked great although I admit it's a bit unconventional. The additional center is where the 6th speaker would normally go, about 2ft behind and above me.
post #2610 of 3156
I have had my 972 for 6 months now and still learning how to fine tune it.

Just finished a Bourne marathon. The first 3 are 5.1 and the last is 7.1.
Before the 972 I was using 7.1 analog into a Denon 4800/5200 combo.
Using the processor in my Oppo I was able to output 7.1 from a 5.1 source.
I have yet to find this ability with the 972. Is it hidden in a menu that I haven't
found yet?

One more question about the bass targets. I try loading them into my 972
and the display flashes loading and jumps to empty. I have tried reloading
the usb a few times still with the same result. I do only have one target
loaded on this thumb drive. I even tried another thumb drive with music on it
with the exact same results. Any suggestions?

Thanks for the help
Steve
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