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Sherwood R-972 User Thread - Page 91

post #2701 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Finally something we can agree on, I am in it for the Trinnov, the 972 is just a necessary evil as I am not about to spend $10K + the cost of a new pre-pro.

Oh no, does this mean I am not longer a part of the cult eek.gif Please, somebody send me some 972 Kool-Aid so I can blindly be a part of the cult again Steven is trying to save us all from.
Ditto.....

There isn't one person here that has praised the platform.

Why you would want to learn about an old and limited version of Trinnov in this thread puzzles me, when you can learn about the current version and platforms in better threads for it.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2702 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Self identified with your crusade speech? No I don't think so.
In my reply to bhazard I mentioned crusading and preaching, and you immediately piped up and said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I've never preached anything.
There's your self identification. I made a general comment and you identified yourself as the crusader, further adding that one of the only reasons you look at this forum is because a lot of people have misconceptions and don't fully understand, thereby confirming the saviour mindset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Since you jumped into a discussion blindly, yet continue to insinuate and make those comments directly towards me.
Since I jumped into this discussion blindly, I couldn't have directed my original comment towards you since I didn't know who bhazard was talking about. I can't be blind to the situation and not blind simultaneously.
post #2703 of 3153
Gentlepersons,

Can we please get back to discussing whether or not Pure Direct is better over RCA or Coax? I'd even let Toslink or (eek.gif!) HDMI into the party at this point.
post #2704 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Finally something we can agree on, I am in it for the Trinnov, the 972 is just a necessary evil as I am not about to spend $10K + the cost of a new pre-pro.

Oh no, does this mean I am not longer a part of the cult eek.gif Please, somebody send me some 972 Kool-Aid so I can blindly be a part of the cult again Steven is trying to save us all from.


If you don't recall I also agreed with you about it not being as well suited for music compared to other units..Except their is no cult or kool-aid, just conspiracy theories of one, for some strange reason.

I was in it for Trinnov as well,but I couldn't go back to the R-972 after doing a back and forth in my rack with my other gear.Re-mapping just wasn't enough for me to keep it.Do I like remapping,Yes.Can I live without it? Certainly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Ditto.....

There isn't one person here that has praised the platform.

Why you would want to learn about an old and limited version of Trinnov in this thread puzzles me, when you can learn about the current version and platforms in better threads for it.
.

You said I had no praise for the platform.So there must be an expectation of some kind of praise otherwise, why mention it.I have all kinds of material about Trinnov.I'm interested in it in all capacities.Just like Audyssey Dirac, ARCOS and all DRC on various forums,but this is the only really active place for feedback on Trinnov.Those other forums are mostly inactive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post


Since I jumped into this discussion blindly, I couldn't have directed my original comment towards you since I didn't know who bhazard was talking about. I can't be blind to the situation and not blind simultaneously.

That's the point I was making you can't do both.

Your crusade to confirm that your comment, directed at no one based on a comment made by bhazard, that was part of a discussion you know nothing about is now noted.

It sounds silly to me. You had to be directing it somewhere. If not,why make it a point to preach about it? That type of comment is too specific to a particular group or individual for it to be just a generalization, considering where the discussion was at.

The saviour mind-set would mean someone was trying to save them from the R-972.Where is that happening? Where is this mythical crusade? How did you come to that conclusion based on bhazard's comment?

Your crusade to put a "P" in front of reference falls right into your philosophy of the saviour mind-set.Besides discussions of THX's validity, I think that's one of the longest running crusades going.You have been preaching that on numerous threads and forums.There's proof of it for anyone to read.However, I don't see any proof of me or anyone else on this forum falling under that philosophy.You did however fall into the group mentality mind -set when you decided to post your comments without fully reading the discussion.Which seems to happen quite often on these forums.

Give it a rest Sanjay.It's over, move on.
Edited by StevenLansing - 5/23/13 at 5:46am
post #2705 of 3153
If RCA is through the A/D section then I would think that the Coax connection would be better.Less conversion.
post #2706 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

You said I had no praise for the platform.So there must be an expectation of some kind of praise otherwise, why mention it.I have all kinds of material about Trinnov.I'm interested in it in all capacities.Just like Audyssey Dirac, ARCOS and all DRC on various forums,but this is the only really active place for feedback on Trinnov.Those other forums are mostly inactive.
Steven....this thread is about a platform you don't like, an old version of Trinnov(two versions old), and stripped down at that.

This thread is more active because of the issues with the platform, and newbie questions on its version of Trinnov. You have "all kinds of material about Trinnov" so what possibly could you want with this thread?

Have you asked a question on those to other threads? Did they go unanswered?

What's silly is that you believe that you participate in this thread to help and be constructive, when in actuality, you do very little of it.

Also, what you fail to mention over and over...like you do other things...is the configuration in how you tried to use the R972.
post #2707 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by islandman2020 View Post

Gentlemen, Gentlemen! When this thread was started as a "User Thread" that was not to be interpreted to mean a thread used to bash people! How about sharing email addresses with one another so you can conduct your arguments somewhere else! The rest of us want to focus on learning about the R-972.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

You're absolutely right, and this thread would progress far better if those who truly want to help and advise other 972 users or prospective users would simply ignore (or use AVS' ignore function: click on username, select "Block Member") certain posters. Imagine the bliss if we all did this simple thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

Gentlepersons,

Can we please get back to discussing whether or not Pure Direct is better over RCA or Coax? I'd even let Toslink or (eek.gif!) HDMI into the party at this point.

I do apologize for my part in the bickering, not constructive and very selfish, sorry.
post #2708 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Steven....this thread is about a platform you don't like, an old version of Trinnov(two versions old), and stripped down at that.

This thread is more active because of the issues with the platform, and newbie questions on its version of Trinnov. You have "all kinds of material about Trinnov" so what possibly could you want with this thread?

Have you asked a question on those to other threads? Did they go unanswered?

What's silly is that you believe that you participate in this thread to help and be constructive, when in actuality, you do very little of it.

Also, what you fail to mention over and over...like you do other things...is the configuration in how you tried to use the R972.


Curiosity is why. I'm looking for feedback and measurements to check out.It doesn't matter to me if the version is older or stripped down.The fundamentals are the same.The other forums provide little of either and yes, I've asked before.

I used the R-972 as a pre-amp connected straight to my active monitors.Can't really get any better than that. My monitors are very well suited for room correction.Even Curt will tell you that monitors that have a good power response are very well suited for room correction.

As far as participation ,you have yet to provide any proof of your claim. I'm still waiting for you to prove that I don't provide answers and constructive posts.I know that I do even if you don't read them.

That's the problem with this forum.People just read what they see in a quick glance and never read the whole discussion or it's context.
Edited by StevenLansing - 5/23/13 at 6:35am
post #2709 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

If RCA is through the A/D section then I would think that the Coax connection would be better.Less conversion.


Well, that wasn't what we were trying to figure out. Tho, personally, now you have me curious as to which has the better D/A - the Sonos or the R-972?
post #2710 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

Well, that wasn't what we were trying to figure out. Tho, personally, now you have me curious as to which has the better D/A - the Sonos or the R-972?

What exactly were you referring too?
post #2711 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

I think, though, that using lower quality/bitrate recordings will probably have more of an impact.


OK, so trying it out this morning.

Remastering an 80kbs song over coax from Sonos to R-972. Pure Audio on, Trinnov off, stereo.

With remastering on the song seems slightly louder so that may affect things.

The other thing I could tell was that things seemed crisper. I was noticing that on some of the chorus it went from being a blob of a sound to seeming like you could almost identify the individual voices.

The main vocal become more focused in the image like it was a bit smeared or spread between the two channels before.

Bass seemed more extended but the speakers I was using don't have a lot of bass extension.
post #2712 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

What exactly were you referring too?

Just trying to figure out when Remastering makes a difference and what. I agree with you that avoiding A/D D/A is probably a wise choice so I'm not so personally interested in hooking the Sonos up via RCA. But, since it would only take a few minutes, I'm willing to do it. Maybe over the weekend.
post #2713 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I used the R-972 as a pre-amp connected straight to my active monitors.Can't get any better than that. My monitors are very well suited for room correction.
[

And what was it that drove you away? I'm still in my 30day return window so I want to know what to look out for.

Like yesterday, the kids came home and turned everything on with the Harmony. No sound, verified settings still no sound. Power cycle and sound! Nothing like troubleshooting audio equipment over the phone. mad.gif

If it gets too annoying then it'll have to go back. Although the clarity of the audio is really amazing.
post #2714 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

OK, so trying it out this morning.

Remastering an 80kbs song over coax from Sonos to R-972. Pure Audio on, Trinnov off, stereo.

With remastering on the song seems slightly louder so that may affect things.

The other thing I could tell was that things seemed crisper. I was noticing that on some of the chorus it went from being a blob of a sound to seeming like you could almost identify the individual voices.

The main vocal become more focused in the image like it was a bit smeared or spread between the two channels before.

Bass seemed more extended but the speakers I was using don't have a lot of bass extension.

Louder will usually be more preferred by the ear.

If the re-mastering function on R-972 does any kind of "sweetening" it would definitely change the character of the sound.I don't think it's just straight upsampling/sample rate conversion that it performs.
post #2715 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

And what was it that drove you away? I'm still in my 30day return window so I want to know what to look out for.

Like yesterday, the kids came home and turned everything on with the Harmony. No sound, verified settings still no sound. Power cycle and sound! Nothing like troubleshooting audio equipment over the phone. mad.gif

If it gets too annoying then it'll have to go back. Although the clarity of the audio is really amazing.

I didn't get the overall sound quality that my previous set-up provided and that's why I chose not to keep it.I just liked more of the attributes to the sound that my previous set-up had. I thought the re-mapping was impressive though.I'd like to have that again someday,but I can live without it for now.

I know people don't like it when I say it,but the R-972 can be quirky like that.That's what worries me about equipment that isn't as stable when things like that just seem to happen for no apparent reason.

I'd just pay attention to any weird things happening that it wasn't doing before as an indicator that it might be a bad unit.Unfortunately there is no way to tell until you have had it for a little while.
Edited by StevenLansing - 5/23/13 at 6:10am
post #2716 of 3153
A tip. Turn your volume down before checking your firmware version. The R-972 sends a loud noise through.
post #2717 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I know people don't like it when I say it,but the R-972 can be quirky like that.That's what worries me about equipment that isn't as stable when things like that just seem to happen for no apparent reason.

I knew it was quirky going in but really wanted to hear Trinnov. After 80 pages, I would hope anyone contemplating a purchase would be aware that it's not a set-it-and-forget-it kind of thing.

Maybe a set-it-and-reset-it-then-forget-about-it kind of thing smile.gif
post #2718 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

Just trying to figure out when Remastering makes a difference and what. I agree with you that avoiding A/D D/A is probably a wise choice so I'm not so personally interested in hooking the Sonos up via RCA. But, since it would only take a few minutes, I'm willing to do it. Maybe over the weekend.

I've read that upsampling also called sample rate conversion(SRC) when done correctly doesn't change the overall sound.Some of the reasons why you hear people talk about upsampling making things sound better is because the process is actually adding distortion to the sound that may actually be pleasing to hear.It's due to errors in the conversion.Some units are tweaked to give that pleasing effect.That's one of the reasons why people like tubes,they add a lot of 2nd order harmonic distortion to the signal that gives it a warmer sound.

Really good SRC minimizes those errors.

I don't exactly know if the re-master function on the R-972 does just SRC.It may tweak the sound to give that perception of added clarity and air.If you like the way it sounds, that's all that matters.
post #2719 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

A tip. Turn your volume down before checking your firmware version. The R-972 sends a loud noise through.

Yeah,be careful with that.You can blow tweeters that way. Don't leave the mic plugged in either.
post #2720 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

I knew it was quirky going in but really wanted to hear Trinnov. After 80 pages, I would hope anyone contemplating a purchase would be aware that it's not a set-it-and-forget-it kind of thing.

Maybe a set-it-and-reset-it-then-forget-about-it kind of thing smile.gif

That's one of the things that I didn't like reading about the R-972.
post #2721 of 3153
Re-mastering on the R-972 is SRC (Sample Rate Conversion) only.

Jeff
post #2722 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

Well, that wasn't what we were trying to figure out. Tho, personally, now you have me curious as to which has the better D/A - the Sonos or the R-972?
Also remember, that the R972 does all the correction in the digital domain.

So if you run 2 channel analog into the unit and do Trinnov processing...or any processing, the analog signal is digitized first...and then converted to analog again before output.
post #2723 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I've read that upsampling also called sample rate conversion(SRC) when done correctly doesn't change the overall sound.Some of the reasons why you hear people talk about upsampling making things sound better is because the process is actually adding distortion to the sound that may actually be pleasing to hear.It's due to errors in the conversion.Some units are tweaked to give that pleasing effect.That's one of the reasons why people like tubes,they add a lot of 2nd order harmonic distortion to the signal that gives it a warmer sound.

Really good SRC minimizes those errors.

I don't exactly know if the re-master function on the R-972 does just SRC.It may tweak the sound to give that perception of added clarity and air.If you like the way it sounds, that's all that matters.
This is good info...thanks Steven.
post #2724 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Also remember, that the R972 does all the correction in the digital domain.

So if you run 2 channel analog into the unit and do Trinnov processing...or any processing, the analog signal is digitized first...and then converted to analog again before output.

Yeah, so sticking with Coax or Toslink would be the thing to do.

My conclusion is that Remastering and Pure Audio should both be turned on, generally speaking. They both cleaned the sound up, in different ways, and together they sound very nice.

But that's my takeaway. Others may conclude differently.
post #2725 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I'm looking for.....measurements to check out.
To what end, Steven? What do you believe measurements of my gear in my room will tell you about Trinnov?

You've already discovered that "(You) didn't get the overall sound quality that (your) previous set-up provided". Neither my nor anyone else's measurements will, or should, change that assessment.
post #2726 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Ditto.....

There isn't one person here that has praised the platform.

Why you would want to learn about an old and limited version of Trinnov in this thread puzzles me, when you can learn about the current version and platforms in better threads for it.

Yeah, every time I read a post of Curt's that make we want to try the R-972, I freak out about how I'll have to train my wife and kid to become QC trouble-shooters when they just want to watch Netflix and hear stuff through the speakers the way they do with my 4311 eek.gif We could always take a chance and buy one, but it's obvious it's a "spin that roulette wheel" product for a family audience. The only way I think I'll now take a chance on the R-972 would be if I had a dedicated HT room, with a backup entertainment room for the family to do everyday viewing. Not happening until we move, though. They're way too used to our living room LOL...

However, with my inherent full-featured Trinnov lust (only fueled by remapping partially addressing first reflection issues), I started researching some of the High End threads here on AVS and a few other places that a few of the usual suspects here post. I shouldn't be surprised by this, but one of the things that makes Trinnov and Datasat so expensive is that is seems that some of the units are apparently hand-built on demand. I ran into one reference about ADA (a prime developer of Trinnov-based apps) that literally suggested that they produce at least one of their integrated recent generation products in small batches of 25 to 50, if that. OTOH, you're also paying for customer support and consulting time from either the developer or a close acquaintance. From some of what I read, it makes the Oppo approach to post-purchase support look like United Airlines in comparison.
post #2727 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

You had to be directing it somewhere.
Yes, that somewhere was typical human behaviour (not satisfied with believing something unless others believe it too). But it wasn't directed specifically at someone. When I used the word preach, how was I supposed to know you would immediately jump in and say "I've never preached anything"? I didn't direct my post at you, you did that all by yourself.
post #2728 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

However, with my inherent full-featured Trinnov lust (only fueled by remapping partially addressing first reflection issues), I started researching some of the High End threads here on AVS and a few other places that a few of the usual suspects here post. I shouldn't be surprised by this, but one of the things that makes Trinnov and Datasat so expensive is that is seems that some of the units are apparently hand-built on demand. I ran into one reference about ADA (a prime developer of Trinnov-based apps) that literally suggested that they produce at least one of their integrated recent generation products in small batches of 25 to 50, if that. OTOH, you're also paying for customer support and consulting time from either the developer or a close acquaintance. From some of what I read, it makes the Oppo approach to post-purchase support look like United Airlines in comparison.
The $40K ADA Reference is a rara avis, and it's dangerous to draw conclusions about Trinnov, based on what's happening with this ADA product.

When I purchased my Trinnov, I waited all of ~two weeks for shipment from France and, unlike the ADA Ref customer, I think I only paid 20% up front. Curt's customer support is way beyond any superlatives I could possibly use, and I know from correspondence with other users that their experience mirrors my own.
Edited by RUR - 5/23/13 at 8:04pm
post #2729 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

The $40K ADA Reference is a rara avis, and it's dangerous to draw conlusions about Trinnov, based on what's happening with this ADA product.

When I purchased my Trinnov, I waited all of ~two weeks for shipment from France and, unlike the ADA Ref customer, I think I only paid 20% up front. Curt's customer support is way beyond any superlatives I could possibly use, and I know from correspondence with other users that their experience mirrors my own.

I couldn't remember the product specifically, but from what I read about the sourcing that sounds like we're thinking of the same story (the relatively new ADA Reference) and customer (paying up front and waiting for small batch/hand assembly for several months). It's one of a kind enough that I see your point.

Personally I can just see getting the TEQ-8 if we struck it lucky, or maybe find a creative way to use a single ST2 someday, but that's about it until the technology trickles down to the $2 to $4K range in either a flagship recent-gen AVR or a standalone processor that I can use with an AVR/pre-pro and amp. But it's nice to aim big.
post #2730 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by islandman2020 View Post


Let me explain how I use Remastering + Pure Audio + Trinnov on 2 channel stereo with my subs:

After getting into the setup menu and selecting "input" continue scrolling until you come to "CD". On page 2 of CD make sure that Auto Surround is set to OFF.

If you have Auto Surround set to ON you will not you will not be able to use the multi surround modes in the R-972 like " MCH" or multi surround stereo when you do turn Trinnov on. When you have Auto Surround turned to OFF you will now use Remastering + Pure Audio + Trinnov. Go to page 3 of the CD page and set Trinnov to however you want. Then turn on Remastering and Pure Audio. Pure Audio will automatically set the R-972 to stereo which you will see in the speaker diagram in the left of the R-972's screen that will show the two front speakers plus a sub, but Trinnov is still engaged.

Now turn OFF Pure Audio and you will see all the speakers that are in your system appear in the left of the R-972's screen. It is now with Pure Audio turned OFF that you can now use all the cool surround modes in the R-972 + Remastering + Trinnov.

By the way, Pure Audio's function is to make the audio cleaner by 1) turning of all video processing circuitry inside the R-972 thereby eliminating any interference from it on audio. 2) It changes the R-972 to Stereo only mode (2.0, or 2.1) which takes all the audio information ordinarily sent to the center and surround speakers and sends it all to your front L/R speakers. To me this sounds the best.

No matter which route you go, stereo or multi-channel, you have the flexibility of always being able to turn Remastering and/or Trinnov off. It's all about what sounds best to you!

This time I made sure that all my settings were matched and tried the analog inputs with Trinnov engaged. I first tried it with plain jane and it sounded good, then I added remastering and it sounded about the same. When I added Pure Audio the sound was noticeably louder so I stopped it right there and grabbed my tri-pod and Galaxy CM-140 SPL meter. With the volume at -10 I measured 86db with No Remastering or Pure Audio, 86db with Remastering and 89db with just Pure Audio. Remastering + Pure Audio brought in the same high level at 89db so it is Pure Audio that raises the volume by 3db.

I went ahead and found the level that matched the 3db increase so that I could fairly compare at the same levels. At first I started at -13 when Remastering + Pure Audio were On that gave me and average level of 86.3db. I then switched the volume to -08 for my HDMI input which gave me an average of 86.6db so the levels were evenly matched for a fair comparison. The levels were averaged from 3 measurements each with the CM-140 C-weighted, slow response so that I could make it as fair as possible.

First thing I noticed was that with the levels matched the analog input with Remastering + Pure Audio still sounded a little louder so I went ahead and dropped the volume to -14 which gave me an average spl of 85.4 db compared to the 86.6db level of the HDMI input at -08. After listening to the same track I used to measure it sounded more evenly matched so I went with it.

I will say that I could hear a difference in more detail and more weight to the sound, it still sort of gave off a sense of being just a tad bit louder as well with the analog input with Remastering + Pure Audio vs the HDMI. You could tell the volume was the same but there just seemed to be more information in the music if you understand what I am saying. It is hard to explain the difference but I did prefer the analog input with Remastering + Pure Audio. There is one specific track in particular that I had played in a friends house and noticed a detail I wasn't picking up at home. With analog input that detail was much more clearly defined that you could not miss it.

I also compared the analog input with and without Remastering + Pure Audio. Even without those 2 processing modes I found my-self preferring the analog input to the HDMI and while engaging Remastering + Pure Audio did make a subtle improvement it wasn't as big as analog input vs HDMI.

I am assuming we are actually just comparing the DAC's in the R-972 vs the CD or BD player. Even though the 972 is converting the analog to digital then back again to apply Trinnov it is still getting a different signal to begin with via the analog vs digital connection.

I really have to spend some more time with it though to know for sure, it is much more subtle when the levels are matched. My initial reaction though is I am listening to music via the analog input with Remastering + Pure Audio. I have to get a friend to switch it for me though so I can do a blind comparison to really know for sure.

Thanks for teaching me something new islandman smile.gif
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