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Sherwood R-972 User Thread - Page 100

post #2971 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by JESSIE DART View Post

Thanks..
Sounds like its a nice sounding piece....
Im close to making the decision on this

Just make sure you browse through this thread at all the quirks the R972 has. This is something a lot of people can't get over so you have to determine for yourself if they are things you can live with.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2972 of 3153
Hello. I just purchased a refurb R-972 to try out as an alternative to my Marantz AV-7005. Setup seems to have gone well, including with the 3db+ bass files, but I am concerned about the SACD processing by the R-972. I have an Oppo BDP-93 hooked to HDMI 1 to play multi-channel SACD discs. What I don't understand is why the R-972 is seemingly down sampling the Oppo output -- the screen says PCM 44.1 MHz. In the Oppo Audio Format Setup, HDMI Audio is set to Bitstream, Coaxial/Optical Output is set to LPCM, the LPCM Rate Limit is set at 192k and the SACD Output is set for PCM. Switching HDMI Audio to LPCM makes no difference, and in fact, changing SACD Output to DSD (obviously not supported by the R-972) yields the same result (rather than not playing at all). Anyway, SACD sounds awful this way. What am I doing wrong? Thanks. JCR

P.S. the audio remastering button does not double the PCM notation, so that wouldn't seem to be the answer.
post #2973 of 3153
Are there any plans for any future firmware updates?
post #2974 of 3153
Nope.
post #2975 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrobbins50 View Post

Hello. I just purchased a refurb R-972 to try out as an alternative to my Marantz AV-7005. Setup seems to have gone well, including with the 3db+ bass files, but I am concerned about the SACD processing by the R-972. I have an Oppo BDP-93 hooked to HDMI 1 to play multi-channel SACD discs. What I don't understand is why the R-972 is seemingly down sampling the Oppo output -- the screen says PCM 44.1 MHz. In the Oppo Audio Format Setup, HDMI Audio is set to Bitstream, Coaxial/Optical Output is set to LPCM, the LPCM Rate Limit is set at 192k and the SACD Output is set for PCM. Switching HDMI Audio to LPCM makes no difference, and in fact, changing SACD Output to DSD (obviously not supported by the R-972) yields the same result (rather than not playing at all). Anyway, SACD sounds awful this way. What am I doing wrong? Thanks. JCR

P.S. the audio remastering button does not double the PCM notation, so that wouldn't seem to be the answer.

Know that using Trinnov takes imense DSP power-  near 90% of CPU for 7.1 24bit at 48k.  Doubling the sample rate to 96k would impossibly QUADRUPLE the CPU load.  Point being you will not have higher then 48k when running Trinnov.  Also, Trinnov runs as PCM, not DSD. There are very few programs- even in the pro audio world, that can process DSD in it's native state.  If you look around, you'll find many many references on the web regarding the incompatibility between DSD and PCM, as well as DSD's processing limitations (not to say that DSD sounds bad, it's just a very difficult format to work with).  

 

The Oppo has an option to convert DSD to PCM and to limit output to 48k.  I suggest you use these settings.  Folks with Trinnov pro units usually listen to DSD at 88.1k PCM. 

 

Cheers,

post #2976 of 3153
After switching out my Integra DTR-80.3 with the R-972 and using it exclusively for the past 3 months or so, I'm leaning towards permanently keeping the 972 and selling the integra. Before doing so though, I want to program my URC TX-1000 remote to operate the 972 so I don't have to use the 972's remote on a daily basis. So far though, I haven't had much success in getting the URC working with the 972. The 972 is not listed in URC's database (I've updated the software for my MX-800, MX-900, TX-1000, and MX-3000 and none of them have it listed). I've tried some of the other Sherwood receiver models in the database and have gotten some commands on the touch screen portion of the remote to work (i.e. selecting inputs), but the "hard" buttons don't work at all (i.e. on/off, volume +/-, mute, etc.). I also can't get my URC remote to learn anything from the 972's remote. This is the first I've ever run into this. Usually the URC picks commands right up when learning from another remote. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get these functions working and/or any 972 templates for the URC? Thanks.
post #2977 of 3153
IIRC correctly I used the R-965 code (might have been Zone 2) for my URC and some functions worked, but I had to use the learning function too.
Edited by noah katz - 11/17/13 at 2:45pm
post #2978 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillet View Post

...I also can't get my URC remote to learn anything from the 972's remote. This is the first I've ever run into this. Usually the URC picks commands right up when learning from another remote. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get these functions working and/or any 972 templates for the URC? Thanks.

Make sure that the Sherwwod remote is not in RF mode.

I have moved away from URC and just use a Harmony RF remote now, but still had to learn a few commands from the Sherwood remote.

The good news is that after learning the commands, it's been working pretty solidly for about a year now (that's why I don't visit this thread often smile.gif
post #2979 of 3153
Hi Skillet,

Attached is the device file exported by my MX-850 editor. It has the most commonly used keys but not all. You can use the "Import Device" function to get the whole set or the "Universal Browser" just to get the keys you need.

Good luck. Sherwood R-972.zip 4k .zip file
post #2980 of 3153
I am in need of a new receiver and I came across this unit. It has been a while since I got my Onkyo TX-SR 605. I am moving into a new home and my current receiver is 2 zone capable but I am not sure how to go about setting that up, plan to look into it, but since I have an entire new speaker system for my HT media room I have considered upgrading the receiver.

I have come across this at $599 shipped brand new with 3 yr warranty. Everything I see shows it to be pretty awesome. My 2 speaker systems are below, but what I would like to really do is set up 2 zones off one receiver but I am unsure how my new home is speaker wired and if I am able to do this easily

Main System
?? receiver
Klipsch WF34
Klipsch WC24
Klipsch WS24
HSU VTF-2 MK4 or Rhythmik LV12R (debating which)
LG BD570C

Secondary System
Onkyo TX-SR 605
Energy RC Mini x 4
Energy Center Mini
ES1010i Powered Subwoofer (planned)
Samsung BD1500
post #2981 of 3153
I've had my R972 for nearly 2 years now. Purchased it thru A4L. It was a brand new unit, not a refurb. It took nearly two weeks of several hours per available evening to get it dialed in. Trinnov was non- functioning as delivered. Required a firmware update supplied by Sherwood tech support.

Since getting it configured, it's been trouble free and provides the BEST surround sound of any AVR I've had in the past. For $600 you will not find anything that provides BETTER sound, IMO.

That said, if I was shopping for an AVR right now, knowing what I know, I would not purchase the R972. Too many headaches, questionable support from Sherwood at this point (it's a discontinued, nearly 5 yr. old design), and quirks that cannot be remedied.

I would save my pennies and spend a bit less than a grand and get a Denon 4000 or 4311 with Audessey XT32. No, you wouldn't have Trinnov, which is amazing, btw. But you also wouldn't have the quirks and other headaches. Sound quality-wise, there wouldn't be much difference less the Trinnov 3D remapping.

BUT, if you enjoy tweaking, and can live with the audio/video drop-outs when changing channels on your cable/sat box, or when first loading a Bluray, and/or have dedicated media room just for movies and music (as in NO family use) there's nothing better available for twice the asking price.

YMMV,

Jeff
post #2982 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by .jss designs View Post

I've had my R972 for nearly 2 years now. Purchased it thru A4L. It was a brand new unit, not a refurb. It took nearly two weeks of several hours per available evening to get it dialed in. Trinnov was non- functioning as delivered. Required a firmware update supplied by Sherwood tech support.

Since getting it configured, it's been trouble free and provides the BEST surround sound of any AVR I've had in the past. For $600 you will not find anything that provides BETTER sound, IMO.

That said, if I was shopping for an AVR right now, knowing what I know, I would not purchase the R972. Too many headaches, questionable support from Sherwood at this point (it's a discontinued, nearly 5 yr. old design), and quirks that cannot be remedied.

I would save my pennies and spend a bit less than a grand and get a Denon 4000 or 4311 with Audessey XT32. No, you wouldn't have Trinnov, which is amazing, btw. But you also wouldn't have the quirks and other headaches. Sound quality-wise, there wouldn't be much difference less the Trinnov 3D remapping.

BUT, if you enjoy tweaking, and can live with the audio/video drop-outs when changing channels on your cable/sat box, or when first loading a Bluray, and/or have dedicated media room just for movies and music (as in NO family use) there's nothing better available for twice the asking price.

YMMV,

Jeff

Are you aware the 972 the original SRP was $1795, and dealer cost was $985..
Buying @ $600 was during the closeout.... And $600 was just slightly higher than the factory FOB cost....
This was a big money loser for Sherwood...


Just my $0.05... 👍😉
post #2983 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Are you aware the 972 the original SRP was $1795, and dealer cost was $985..
Buying @ $600 was during the closeout.... And $600 was just slightly higher than the factory FOB cost....
This was a big money loser for Sherwood...


Just my $0.05... 👍😉

Ummm, of course. Price and Trinnov were the two main reasons for my purchase. Just wanted Cisco Kid to understand some short-comings. As much as I like the R972, I'd never use it in my family room as our daily TV audio system. It's a 5 yr. old design, lacking many of the features of more modern equipment like the Denon 4000 or 4311. Both which are currently available as refurbs at very attractive prices.
post #2984 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by .jss designs View Post

I've had my R972 for nearly 2 years now. Purchased it thru A4L. It was a brand new unit, not a refurb. It took nearly two weeks of several hours per available evening to get it dialed in. Trinnov was non- functioning as delivered. Required a firmware update supplied by Sherwood tech support.

Since getting it configured, it's been trouble free and provides the BEST surround sound of any AVR I've had in the past. For $600 you will not find anything that provides BETTER sound, IMO.

That said, if I was shopping for an AVR right now, knowing what I know, I would not purchase the R972. Too many headaches, questionable support from Sherwood at this point (it's a discontinued, nearly 5 yr. old design), and quirks that cannot be remedied.

I would save my pennies and spend a bit less than a grand and get a Denon 4000 or 4311 with Audessey XT32. No, you wouldn't have Trinnov, which is amazing, btw. But you also wouldn't have the quirks and other headaches. Sound quality-wise, there wouldn't be much difference less the Trinnov 3D remapping.

BUT, if you enjoy tweaking, and can live with the audio/video drop-outs when changing channels on your cable/sat box, or when first loading a Bluray, and/or have dedicated media room just for movies and music (as in NO family use) there's nothing better available for twice the asking price.

YMMV,

Jeff

I had the 4311. The R972 is just that much better.

Until HDMI 2.0 comes out, buying any other receiver right now is a waste of money.
post #2985 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

I had the 4311. The R972 is just that much better.

Until HDMI 2.0 comes out, buying any other receiver right now is a waste of money.

Just curious if you used the DSX wides and heights on the 4311, and does the sherwood allow for the same?

What about your room and speaker placement? Is the room treated, and speaker placement optimal, average, or WAF compromised?

I've been fighting the urge to get a R972 and tinker with it. The answers to those questions might help sway me in one direction or another.

Thanks,
Jason
post #2986 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post

Just curious if you used the DSX wides and heights on the 4311, and does the sherwood allow for the same?

What about your room and speaker placement? Is the room treated, and speaker placement optimal, average, or WAF compromised?

I've been fighting the urge to get a R972 and tinker with it. The answers to those questions might help sway me in one direction or another.

Thanks,
Jason

Trinnov creates a much better 3D soundfield compared to when I used the Heights on the 4311.

Speaker placement is perfect up front where the sound matters most. Otherwise, my surrounds are sub-optimal, and Trinnov makes it seem like they are perfect.

The 4311 is slightly better in music, but the R972 destroys it in movies. I got my R972 at the one time deal of $300, and it is one of the best deals in audio I've ever had.
post #2987 of 3153
That was the New Years deal? I've been telling myself to wait to see if another deal like that comes along.
post #2988 of 3153
Oh, btw, my 4311 creates a very good 3D sound-field. My sofa is butted up against the back wall, with bipolar side surrounds mounted on that same wall about a foot away from the sofa ends. The left side of the room opens to a larger area, the right side is closed in. Seems that the right side has better imaging. I guess my point is if it was a closed room it would be perfect (especially if I had space behind for rear surrounds). Still, I've never tried the trinnov so maybe it is better. Thanks for the feedback!
post #2989 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by .jss designs View Post

Sound quality-wise, there wouldn't be much difference less the Trinnov 3D remapping.

I agree with about the quirks, but not the sound.

I had an early 972, then a 4810, then 4311, then back to a 972.

The main reason was the easier, more refined sound quality, *without* EQ or remapping.
post #2990 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I agree with about the quirks, but not the sound.

I had an early 972, then a 4810, then 4311, then back to a 972.

The main reason was the easier, more refined sound quality, *without* EQ or remapping.

You've said that; how did you find the bass/sub response for Audyssey Pro (which IIRC you used with XT32) vs. the Sherwood implementation of Trinnov?

DK if anyone still remembers, but I was the guy that was looking at the Oppo 103/R-972 with Trinnov "Franken processor" route, to turn the Sherwood into a 40+ lb. REQ device for the Oppo being the pre/pro, and then connect it into my Denon 4311 as an amp. And your adventures with MiniDSP and multiple subs may well be the route I'm going as part of smoothing out my overall bass response.

To make a long story short, I have the R-972, but since we had a baby in September, I've had very limited bandwidth to play with it except to verify that it turns on frown.gif, and we've been using my pre-existing Denon 4311 with Audyssey XT32 in our HT as the AVR. Plus which, as I live in the REW/HDMI thread rabbit hole, I've run into some issues with bass decay on my spectrogram plots that I'm looking at before I start comparing systems, as it impacts speaker/sub placement and possibly even where we have the MLP. That's likely to be more like next month around the holiday break.

Having said that, as part of a project I'm working on with one of the REW thread guys, I'm looking into going the LFE input route with my Mythos ST mains, as a set of secondary subs relative to my more capable independent subs. Curt had mentioned in his Trinnov notes that you can approach that direction, but as you know, the R-972 only has one sub channel. Thus, where the MiniDSP 4x8 or 10x10 comes in to manage it all. And it's a more capable way of doing what an Audyssey XT32 does with its own Sub EQ HT for two discrete sub outputs.

Once we do that, it's Trinnov time. Who knows: with a MiniDSP 10x10 interfacing between with the Oppo-103/R-972 pre-pro combo and the Denon playing my amp role, I may have stumbled into another component of building a crude TEQ-8, in a way, since you can do some "post-Trinnov" PEQ at a channel level. Assuming it helps, that is smile.gif.

Stay tuned...good thing I'm really not in a hurry....
Edited by sdrucker - 11/25/13 at 6:53pm
post #2991 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

You've said that; how did you find the bass/sub response for Audyssey Pro (which IIRC you used with XT32) vs. the Sherwood implementation of Trinnov?

Fairly comparable (remember that both ways had the head start of pre EQ w/MiniDSP), maybe a bit fuller bass with Trinnov (using the +6 dB file).
post #2992 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Fairly comparable (remember that both ways had the head start of pre EQ w/MiniDSP), maybe a bit fuller bass with Trinnov (using the +6 dB file).

Good to hear - I was a little concerned about the Trinnov solution not having as good resolution < 200 Hz as Audyssey XT32. Otherwise I'd point out that since Audyssey tries to achieve a flat target curve, you're going to get less fullness, all things equal, with Audyssey than Trinnov without the +6 db bass curve boost. OTOH, there's been a lot of talk lately among the usual suspects that the Audyssey preference isn't for the one that humans tend to naturally prefer, which is the tilting, descending curve emphasizing a bit more bass and a little less treble. The +6 db gets you more there, possibly (as does the Audyssey Pro Target Curve Editor, but not quite so much).
post #2993 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I agree with about the quirks, but not the sound.

I had an early 972, then a 4810, then 4311, then back to a 972.

The main reason was the easier, more refined sound quality, *without* EQ or remapping.

My R972 replaced a Pioneer Elite 59txi. As for 2 channel sound with no EQ, I really couldn't hear a difference. Where the Sherwood excels is in surround mode. Nothing, including my Elite, can touch it. That's because of the Trinnov, or at least the R972 implementation of it.

I also enjoy the R972 for multi-channel music (DVD-Audio and SACD.) By feeding LPCM via HDMI, I can use the Trinnov EQ. Whereas with the Elite, I had to use analog. As I noted earlier, I don't think there's anything that will touch the Sherwood for movies. But I could never use it in the family room. No CEC, or ARC, no networking, etc. And the quirks would drive the wife nuts!

Jeff
post #2994 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by .jss designs View Post

My R972 replaced a Pioneer Elite 59txi. As for 2 channel sound with no EQ, I really couldn't hear a difference. Where the Sherwood excels is in surround mode. Nothing, including my Elite, can touch it. That's because of the Trinnov, or at least the R972 implementation of it.

I also enjoy the R972 for multi-channel music (DVD-Audio and SACD.) By feeding LPCM via HDMI, I can use the Trinnov EQ. Whereas with the Elite, I had to use analog. As I noted earlier, I don't think there's anything that will touch the Sherwood for movies. But I could never use it in the family room. No CEC, or ARC, no networking, etc. And the quirks would drive the wife nuts!

Jeff

How useful is CEC or ARC in reality? I've always found it a bit of a PITA to use either without occasionally running into equipment conflicts, plus which you need all your equipment to be compliant to be practical. Besides, with a universal programmable remote, you can write macros or activities (Harmony) to do more or less some of the same functionality, at least for power on/off.

As to glitches, obviously you can't touch issues with HDMI inputs/outputs not working or dead channels, but many of the R-972 reported glitches do have workarounds.

Based on reading the thread, here's at least a start of some issues and possible workarounds. Some of this is tongue in cheek, but I hope I've hit at least some of the basics:
  • Audio codec delays: use another source to decode LPCM wherever possible
  • Video processing issues: ideally, bypass the R-972 altogether from the video display chain (meaning something else is providing the video switching capability or you're directly connecting your TV/projector to the video source; again, a universal remote to synchronize or coordinate audio with video sources is helpful)
  • Networking/wireless and things like Internet Radio: that's why God/Apple invented Apple TV and AirPlay LOL
  • Potential sub thump, issues on pre-out, or loud noises when checking firmware version: judicious use of a mute button, and/or turning off the amp connected by analog pre-out (or temporarily switching to another source connected to the amp; that's what I'm planning to do with the AVR that I'm using as an amp device for the R-972). Actually, use an external amp to avoid issues with the Sherwood being under-powered, period
  • Losing calibration settings or needing to factory reset: you're stuck, but taking pictures of key speaker settings before running a calibration is a good idea, period


You lose out on some of the newer things that, say, Denon or Pioneer offer like HDMI Multi-Zone capability, Ethernet, 11.2 processing etc. but I think Curt noted that you can be creative with the R-972 and use up to 9.2 if you're willing to have things like surrounds in mono, or other equipment (Behringer, MiniDSP etc.) to handle a multiple sub setting before EQing with the R-972's single sub channel. Not for everyone, and not cost-free, but still cheaper than the full price of the Sherwood before the AC4L days.

The funny thing is that I had a classic Pioneer Kuro a few years ago, and I could never get it to work correctly on HDMI with my flagship Denon DVD player with what was then state-of-the-art video processing. And even an AVS favorite like the Darbee has glitches where you lose can randomly settings at times. So nothing is perfect.

Hmmm..a list of known issues/workarounds would be a nice thing to have if anyone wants to contribute. Since I'm diving into R-972 over the holidays, I suppose I can compile it if anyone's interested.
post #2995 of 3153
BTW, AC4L shows the R-972 selling for $499 new with free ground FedEx, and somewhere around 35 still available. I wonder if that's their final stock.
post #2996 of 3153
Hello,

Obviously a bit late to the R-972 party but I have a couple of questions regarding this receiver and Trinnov.

Would the Trinnov still work its magic for a home theater without a dedicated center channel speaker?

Will the Trinnov still have the same effect of centering the dialogue to the display if there is no center channel?

In other words I am going to be running a 4.2 or 4.3 setup in my system. Front left, front right, surround left, surround right, two or three subs.

For the people using this receiver with multiple subs comment on their setup? Are you just running a y-cable or connector from the single sub output on the receiver?

I have been in the Denon camp for the last 5+ years or so and am just shipping off my Denon 3310 to the new owner.

It is pretty much down to the R-972 and the Denon 4311 or newer with XT32.

Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated.

I understand about the quirks. I am an audiophile so I put up with a lot for better sound quality.

Thanks,

Nick
post #2997 of 3153

I believe the user notes cover this stuff.

 

Notes: http://www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.pdf

 

Avs forum: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1397757/r972-trinnov-user-notes

 

Have fun!

 

Cheers,

post #2998 of 3153
I've often had problems with the R-972 maintaining sync with my JVC projector. Usually at least once during a movie I had to disconnect the HDMI cable to force a re-sync, a PITA. The audio continued fine, even after the picture disappeared. This relatively cheap gadget seems to have solved the problem:

http://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Amplified-splitter-XBOX360-Blu-ray/dp/B008B7ARRK/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1386442401&sr=8-11&keywords=hdmi+splitter

I send one of the split HDMI signals to the R-972 for audio processing and the other directly to the projector, bypassing the R-972. So far I've watched 3 Blu-rays and everything has worked fine. My initial attempt to solve this problem was to use HDMI for the projector and the coaxial digital output of my Blu-ray player to the R-972. I never could get any of the high resolution Blu-ray soundtracks to the R-972 through the coaxial connection. I use a really cheap Sony Blu-ray player, though.

Any idea when we might see Trinnov processing in an affordable but less bug-ridden product.
post #2999 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mraub View Post

I've often had problems with the R-972 maintaining sync with my JVC projector. Usually at least once during a movie I had to disconnect the HDMI cable to force a re-sync, a PITA. The audio continued fine, even after the picture disappeared. This relatively cheap gadget seems to have solved the problem:

http://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Amplified-splitter-XBOX360-Blu-ray/dp/B008B7ARRK/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1386442401&sr=8-11&keywords=hdmi+splitter

I send one of the split HDMI signals to the R-972 for audio processing and the other directly to the projector, bypassing the R-972. So far I've watched 3 Blu-rays and everything has worked fine. My initial attempt to solve this problem was to use HDMI for the projector and the coaxial digital output of my Blu-ray player to the R-972. I never could get any of the high resolution Blu-ray soundtracks to the R-972 through the coaxial connection. I use a really cheap Sony Blu-ray player, though.

Any idea when we might see Trinnov processing in an affordable but less bug-ridden product.

In the current market for home audio, somewhere between 'a long time from now' and 'possibly in our lifetimes'.

As to why, read Curt's responses on this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1494763/anything-new-at-cedia-with-trinnov-equalization-system

In the meantime, there's the R-972, with some help from more modern tech and secondary devices to focus its functionality, and aim to limit its role, to be more of a basic Trinnov processor rather than a $600 (originally close to $2K) AVR competitive with Denon, Pioneer etc.
post #3000 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by .jss designs View Post

Ummm, of course. Price and Trinnov were the two main reasons for my purchase. Just wanted Cisco Kid to understand some short-comings. As much as I like the R972, I'd never use it in my family room as our daily TV audio system. It's a 5 yr. old design, lacking many of the features of more modern equipment like the Denon 4000 or 4311. Both which are currently available as refurbs at very attractive prices.

I am so torn on the receiver I need to buy and now the Sherwood R-972 has dropped to $499 shipped vs an Onkyo TX-NR818 at $649 shipped, Sherwood offers 3 yr warranty new the Onkyo 1 yr. Since I will have dual subs I need MultiEQ XT32

I am leaning to the Sherwood but I need this receiver to be our daily one in our HT/media/family room, the quirks mentioned scare me but I just see so much value even being older and keep hearing how amazing it is for sound, just wondering if my wife and son will be cursing with its quirks and whether I am just smarter to go with newer being the Onkyo which is my max budget. Not that it does not have quirks , I just expect fewer.....
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