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Sherwood R-972 User Thread - Page 101

post #3001 of 3153
Xt32 does nothing special with dual subs, it treats them like one in the 818. Only receivers with SubEQ set separate delays for two subs, but then they are still eq'd as one.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #3002 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post

I am so torn on the receiver I need to buy and now the Sherwood R-972 has dropped to $499 shipped vs an Onkyo TX-NR818 at $649 shipped, Sherwood offers 3 yr warranty new the Onkyo 1 yr. Since I will have dual subs I need MultiEQ XT32

I am leaning to the Sherwood but I need this receiver to be our daily one in our HT/media/family room, the quirks mentioned scare me but I just see so much value even being older and keep hearing how amazing it is for sound, just wondering if my wife and son will be cursing with its quirks and whether I am just smarter to go with newer being the Onkyo which is my max budget. Not that it does not have quirks , I just expect fewer.....

For a daily receiver you might be better off with the Onkyo, too many quirks with the 972.

As already mentioned the Onkyo 818 has XT32 but not SubEQ so it will not set levels and delay separately for 2 subs. It's not that big of a deal though IMO and your subs should be fine with the 818.
post #3003 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

For a daily receiver you might be better off with the Onkyo, too many quirks with the 972.

As already mentioned the Onkyo 818 has XT32 but not SubEQ so it will not set levels and delay separately for 2 subs. It's not that big of a deal though IMO and your subs should be fine with the 818.

Correction: Sub HT EQ is not that big a deal if you have two equidistant subs (meaning roughly the same distance from your MLP). If you have two subs in different locations (e.g. one in front, one in back of your room), the capability to set independent distance and level set for the two subs is quite valuable for getting them to blend smoothly. Sub HT EQ can allow Audyssey to do that for you. If you went the Sherwood route, it has only the one sub pre-out, so you'd need them to be equidistant and connect to the pre-out via a Y-splitter, or you'd have to go another route to distance and level (or gain) match them.

However, you can get an Antimode or MiniDSP to match them and get distance right for your two subs if they're in non-equidistant locations, then EQ them as one with the AVR.

Bottom line: if you have two subs that are in fact equidistant, and indeed this is the best position for your subs in your room in creating the smoothest pre-room equalization bass response, you can connect them with a Y-splitter to a single sub pre-out of your AVR with little loss in generality, so getting either the 818 or the R-972 wouldn't be a problem. However, if your bass response would be better served by having subs located at different distances from the MLP, you're better off either getting an XT32 system, or if you want to go the Trinnov route with the R-972, be willing to invest in a device that can manage the separate delays and trims for each of your subs.

As to which receiver is best for you, it depends on what else you have in your setup. If you want ease of use and a "set and forget" calibration, I'd get the 818. If you want to explore some of the features of Trinnov, and have a universal remote, tolerance for running several calibrations to get one that's in the ballpark of being right, and other ways to get at network functionality or video processing beyond what the circa 2008/9 design has, you can try the Sherwood. It's got a 30 day return policy if you're feeling lucky....

I will say that when I'm going to play with my R-972 to get Trinnov processing, I'm not letting my family go anywhere near it. As far as they're concerned they just get to use our existing Denon 4311 setup with my Harmony remote. The R-972 is only being used on a single HDMI input to the Sherwood and feeding into my Denon as an EXT IN source. All they'll know is that they can hit an activity on the universal remote and watch a BluRay or listen to music with it, and that's it. And if it's too quirky, they can always revert to TiVo or whatever on the existing setup.

Of course, it means having two Oppos to do what I want everything to do (necessary until they develop an Oppo with three HDMI outputs LOL), but cie la vie.

Stuart
Edited by sdrucker - 12/7/13 at 10:49pm
post #3004 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post

I am so torn on the receiver I need to buy and now the Sherwood R-972 has dropped to $499 shipped vs an Onkyo TX-NR818 at $649 shipped, Sherwood offers 3 yr warranty new the Onkyo 1 yr. Since I will have dual subs I need MultiEQ XT32

That's an amazing price for what you get. At $599 I thought it was a good deal and I tried it for a month. Remember that the R972 was intended to compete in the $1.5-2K range, not the $500-1000 range.
Quote:
I am leaning to the Sherwood but I need this receiver to be our daily one in our HT/media/family room, the quirks mentioned scare me but I just see so much value even being older and keep hearing how amazing it is for sound, just wondering if my wife and son will be cursing with its quirks and whether I am just smarter to go with newer being the Onkyo which is my max budget. Not that it does not have quirks , I just expect fewer.....

The most annoying thing it does is being slow at detecting codecs. When we used it with the Tivo it kept losing dialogue for us when commercials went from DD5.1 to DD2.0 and back to whatever the TV show was.

If you're not using it for TV then this isn't a problem. You just start the disc or netflix movie and the codec doesn't change. I don't remember if this is only over HDMI so using coax or optical might also avoid the problem.

The next most annoying thing was that its remote isn't very good. But if you can get or already have a better universal remote then that doesn't matter much.
post #3005 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post

The most annoying thing it does is being slow at detecting codecs. When we used it with the Tivo it kept losing dialogue for us when commercials went from DD5.1 to DD2.0 and back to whatever the TV show was.

If you're not using it for TV then this isn't a problem. You just start the disc or netflix movie and the codec doesn't change. I don't remember if this is only over HDMI so using coax or optical might also avoid the problem. .

... or you could have the TiVo output the audio as LPCM, and do the decoding, which at least my Series 3 can do. That might be a workaround if it's the codec change on bitstreaming from the Sherwood causing the issue.
post #3006 of 3153
Symmetry doesn't necessarily guarantee better results; it might even multiply the effects of a bad location
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Correction: Sub HT EQ is not that big a deal if you have two equidistant subs (meaning roughly the same distance from your MLP). If you have two subs in different locations (e.g. one in front, one in back of your room), the capability to set independent distance and level set for the two subs is quite valuable for getting them to blend smoothly. Sub HT EQ can allow Audyssey to do that for you. If you went the Sherwood route, it has only the one sub pre-out, so you'd need them to be equidistant and connect to the pre-out via a Y-splitter, or you'd have to go another route to distance and level (or gain) match them.
post #3007 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Symmetry doesn't necessarily guarantee better results; it might even multiply the effects of a bad location

Very true: sub symmetry only works if you measure that it's an improvement over asymmetry.

I'm going to edit my post to make it clear that I'm not advocating having symmetric subs just to be able to use a single pre-out as the optimal strategy.
Edited by sdrucker - 12/7/13 at 10:46pm
post #3008 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

... or you could have the TiVo output the audio as LPCM, and do the decoding, which at least my Series 3 can do. That might be a workaround if it's the codec change on bitstreaming from the Sherwood causing the issue.

I thought that would convert the signal to stereo?
post #3009 of 3153
^^ You should be able to set your TiVo to output Dolby Digital 5.1 in Audio Settings, but it's not a default choice in the menu. I have an Oppo 103 which has an HDMI input I can feed my TiVo output into and decode it to LPCM output (which then goes via HDMI to an AVR), which was my workaround for bypassing the R-972's codec issue. I might have forgotten that step when i talked about decoding to LPCM....I'll check my TiVo when I'm home to see if the TiVo box itself decodes before sending via HDMI or only acts as a transport via bitstream, which would render my solution a non-solution in your case.

I wind up with LPCM output with my setup, but with a TiVo outputting DD 5.1 you might have no choice but to have another unit in the chain do the decoding from the TiVo after all, if you wouldn't want the R-972 to do it.
Edited by sdrucker - 12/8/13 at 4:02pm
post #3010 of 3153
Well, I guess I don't understand marketing very well. There are maybe 10 manufacturers offering comprehensive lines of HT receivers, all of which have substantially the same features, with just minor differences. Trinnov is a superior speaker optimization system and it's superiority over its competitors is pretty obvious to even a casual listener (and this comes from someone who thinks supposed differences in amplifiers, speaker cables and the like is a bunch of nonsense). Why would not one of the competitors try to gain market share by offering a better product? Sure, your R&D costs are going to reduce profits in the short term, but once your product gets reviewed and recognized as a cut above the competition, you should gain a bigger share of the market and perhaps even get away with charging a premium. The Japanese electronics conglomerates who control most of the HT receiver market seem too conservative to take this on and the smaller upstarts like Emotiva and Outlaw haven't been able to add Trinnov to any of their products, though both have considered doing so in the past.

I guess I find it irritating that a superior product isn't more accessible. Last night I watched Red2, a moderately entertaining movie with an incredible soundtrack. I've got a fairly standard 7.1 setup but none of the sounds seemed to be coming from any speaker you could specifically identify. I've never heard anything like that with anything but Trinnov.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

In the current market for home audio, somewhere between 'a long time from now' and 'possibly in our lifetimes'.

As to why, read Curt's responses on this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1494763/anything-new-at-cedia-with-trinnov-equalization-system

In the meantime, there's the R-972, with some help from more modern tech and secondary devices to focus its functionality, and aim to limit its role, to be more of a basic Trinnov processor rather than a $600 (originally close to $2K) AVR competitive with Denon, Pioneer etc.
post #3011 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mraub View Post

Well, I guess I don't understand marketing very well. There are maybe 10 manufacturers offering comprehensive lines of HT receivers, all of which have substantially the same features, with just minor differences. Trinnov is a superior speaker optimization system and it's superiority over its competitors is pretty obvious to even a casual listener (and this comes from someone who thinks supposed differences in amplifiers, speaker cables and the like is a bunch of nonsense). Why would not one of the competitors try to gain market share by offering a better product? Sure, your R&D costs are going to reduce profits in the short term, but once your product gets reviewed and recognized as a cut above the competition, you should gain a bigger share of the market and perhaps even get away with charging a premium. The Japanese electronics conglomerates who control most of the HT receiver market seem too conservative to take this on and the smaller upstarts like Emotiva and Outlaw haven't been able to add Trinnov to any of their products, though both have considered doing so in the past.

I guess I find it irritating that a superior product isn't more accessible. Last night I watched Red2, a moderately entertaining movie with an incredible soundtrack. I've got a fairly standard 7.1 setup but none of the sounds seemed to be coming from any speaker you could specifically identify. I've never heard anything like that with anything but Trinnov.

Me too, but it's an old story. Remember Betamax vs. VHS? Or DR-DOS vs. MS-DOS? And how many of us drive hybrid or electric cars?

Welcome to the world of consumer research (my field professionally is marketing research). By and large, people don't buy sound quality, they buy a cluster of features that maximize the perceived value of what they're putting on their credit card. There's a tradeoff between those features, over and above things that are must haves or completely unacceptable, and a price range with a floor - what price something's a bargain and of acceptable quality - and a ceiling, where anything more expensive pushes people out of the market no matter how good the product is. Both come into play. Throw in a large dose of marketing muscle, although in today's world social networking gets around some of that if you've reached an audience with market power and the willingness to act on it.

That's another way of saying that if SQ mattered and consumers understood the proposition of what accounting for early reflections, remapping non-optimal placements, and target curve optimization meant, the mass market manufacturers wouldn't be differentiating AVRs on 4K passthrough, video processing, having more powerful (and more) amps well outside what most users need, and network connectivity that could be replicated with an Apple TV or other networkable devices with an HDMI output. They'd be selling basic vs. advanced Audyssey XT32, MCACC, and Trinnov modules, and releasing incremental firmware revisions to these algorithms as part of a revenue stream. IOW they'd follow more of an Oppo model, with a subscription structure to upgrades.

It's not just Trinnov that doesn't have critical mass for more AVR release. Other than the Emotiva XMC-1 that may or may not be in the pipeline for real next year, nobody outside of Datasat's five figure RS20i supports Dirac either. And Audyssey itself has changed its focus from improving its MultiEQ for AVRs to leveraging its algorithm for mobile platforms and headphones. They haven't even fixed known bugs in their Pro CI software. While they have a good product, they know where their ROI is better.

Case in point: a year or two ago I got an email from a major home audio manufacturer conducting a study on AVRs. The only features they varied in their conjoint (tradeoff) exercise were things that many of us would consider trivial or of secondary importance: video processing/upscaling, number of HDMI ports, number of Ethernet/network ports, and the number of amp channels + stated power in watts per amp. Not a hint of REQ or marketing differences in sound quality with upsampling, BTW.

Unfortunately, if you want something outside of the box to get superior results to the mainstream, you either have to be creative, part of the 1% or both. And know the difference, of course.
Edited by sdrucker - 12/9/13 at 3:20pm
post #3012 of 3153
Good day to you all!!

I have ordered my R-972 and it will arrive tomorrow.

It will be used as a Pre/Pro with my IPS-1.

My question is if I have a 7.1 setup right now, can I also use a speaker out from the R-972 to power a set of Height speakers as well? Go 9.1?

Will the Trin be able to accomodate and work correctly?

Thanks in advance!!
post #3013 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSlater21 View Post

Good day to you all!!

I have ordered my R-972 and it will arrive tomorrow.

It will be used as a Pre/Pro with my IPS-1.

My question is if I have a 7.1 setup right now, can I also use a speaker out from the R-972 to power a set of Height speakers as well? Go 9.1?

Will the Trin be able to accomodate and work correctly?

Thanks in advance!!

 

 

Now would be an excellent time to read the Trinnov User Notes. 

 

Notes: http://www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.pdf

 

Avs forum: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1397757/r972-trinnov-user-notes

 

You can have 9.1 speakers, but you'll only have 7.1 outputs to do it.  Typically the backs are paired up to gain frontal resolution.  Works best with similar speakers combined.  A good trade-off, given that dubbing stages do this as well.  The down side is that original 7.1 content will loose some rear resolution.  

 

Cheers,

post #3014 of 3153
Hi Curt,

I have updated my system with Emotiva XPA - 5 and JBL L890 (towers) for front left and right last week and reset the receiver and updated with the firmware version of 1.47 I. I tried to calibrate the and got the front left -6db point to 0 hz. It sounds to me something wrong. Connected the 5 channels L,C,R,SR, SL to Emotiva through preouts of R972 and left SBR, SBL to the receiver speaker connections of SBR and SBL. Please advice on this as I have some time left if I have to return the additions I made. Also when I set the Trinnov spatial mapping to 3D the dialog moves to front right channel and 2D settings brings back the dialog to center channel. I tried to reset and update the firmware many times and also tried numerous times of Trinnov calibrations to see if there will be any change in the -6db point frequency change.

Thanks
Reddy

Front R,L - JBL L890
Center - JBL LC2
Surrounds- JBL L820 (4)
Subwoofer-REVEL B120 (2)
DVD - OPPO BDP-93
Amp - EMOTIVA XPA-5 Gen2

20131216_083801.jpg 2324k .jpg file 20131216_083842.jpg 2351k .jpg file
Edited by tlkreddy - 12/16/13 at 8:07am
post #3015 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlkreddy View Post

Hi Curt,

I have updated my system with Emotiva XPA - 5 and JBL L890 (towers) for front left and right last week and reset the receiver and updated with the firmware version of 1.47 I. I tried to calibrate the and got the front left -6db point to 0 hz. It sounds to me something wrong. Connected the 5 channels L,C,R,SR, SL to Emotiva through preouts of R972 and left SBR, SBL to the receiver speaker connections of SBR and SBL. Please advice on this as I have some time left if I have to return the additions I made. Also when I set the Trinnov spatial mapping to 3D the dialog moves to front right channel and 2D settings brings back the dialog to center channel. I tried to reset and update the firmware many times and also tried numerous times of Trinnov calibrations to see if there will be any change in the -6db point frequency change.

Thanks
Reddy

Front R,L - JBL L890
Center - JBL LC2
Surrounds- JBL L820 (4)
Subwoofer-REVEL B120 (2)
DVD - OPPO BDP-93
Amp - EMOTIVA XPA-5 Gen

Not Curt, but that 0 Hz crossover for your mains sure looks strange. Is that a sign that Trinnov isn't finding your L/R mains? Otherwise I can't see how you would have a higher F6 for your subs (23 Hz) than your JBL L890s.
post #3016 of 3153
When I run the calibration I hear only three bursts of noise which I read as a good reading. I am not that technical and step by step process to follow is appreciated. Thanks
post #3017 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlkreddy View Post

When I run the calibration I hear only three bursts of noise which I read as a good reading. I am not that technical and step by step process to follow is appreciated. Thanks

You might want to take a look at page 5 of the R972 users' guide:
http://www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.pdf

...although it's your left and right speakers that are the issue apparently, so I think the advice about trying the cal from different mic positions as per the comments, or possibly different speaker placements, makes the most sense. OTOH, if you were able to get good calibrations with your previous speakers, the new JBL mains strike me as the most likely culprit.

If you had independent measuring gear (OmniMic or REW), you could also try some sweeps of the JBL speakers without Trinnov to make sure that they're actually working (e.g. no broken tweeters or blown woofers) over the full response range of the speakers. I have no experience with JBL so hopefully somebody else with speakers from that manufacturer can chime in as well. You also might want to do due diligence and check your connections to the Emotiva as well as the speaker wiring to verify that they're correct.
post #3018 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlkreddy View Post

When I run the calibration I hear only three bursts of noise which I read as a good reading. I am not that technical and step by step process to follow is appreciated. Thanks
Might help if you can post the azimuth and elevation readings from your calibration.
post #3019 of 3153
I think this is what you want to see. If not please let me know 20131216_083801.jpg 2324k .jpg file
post #3020 of 3153
Angles look good; congratulations on 0 horiz.

The only thing I can think of (not that I'm an expert) that may cause that is having it set to Autoroute.
post #3021 of 3153
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlkreddy View Post

When I run the calibration I hear only three bursts of noise which I read as a good reading. I am not that technical and step by step process to follow is appreciated. Thanks

 

Let’s see if I can be of help to your process.

 

Reduce your variables

 

My suggestion is that when making changes, try to reduce the variables you change at each step.  Otherwise, it becomes very difficult for one to assess what is the culprit if something goes awash.  One can change several things at once and hope it goes well.  I suggest you only do this if you can re-trace the steps to see where the issues come into play.   In your case, it appears you've changed several things- (1) speakers (2) speaker placement?? (3) firmware, (4) receiver reset and perhaps (5) new calibration configuration.  What is issue?  Hard to tell, isn't it?

 

Try a calibration on the existing system first- before changes

 

Here's a tip for going forward of how to implement changes with minimum fuss.  Example: goal is to change speakers.  If it's been a while since you've run calibrations, start with running a calibration on the existing layout before making any new changes to see all is working well.  This will help with identifying some aspects you haven't visited in perhaps a long while before moving into new territory. This includes the software, the mic, and how it all works, including any difficult aspects leftover from last time you did it, such as placement issues.  If you can do the new cal to a unused preset, so much the better.  Then going forward, you'll  have confidence in both your gear and your abilities. 

 

Make a list of what is changing

 

Start first by making a list of the things (variables) you want to change- and try to keep track of them in such a way that it will be easy to identify them if if you try several things (your variables) at one go  and it doesn't work as expected.  See my list (in the first paragraph) if this helps.  You see the pattern I'm suggesting here?  One can make several changes at once, but if they don't work out and you've got to figure out why, you can't unless you can identify ALL the specific changes. This will help anyone deal with the technical aspects of getting this done easier to follow and execute.

 

Your "0 Hz" measurements are puzzling, but there are too many things/variables to identify the cause.  You changed speakers.  Did they move?  You changed firmware.  Did that go properly?  If you place back your original configuration, would it work?  Maybe you need to start there, then move forward, if needed, one variable at a time.

 

Firmware caution

 

A note about Firmware and resets- don't do it unless you need to.  Many have resorted to updating the firmware every time calibrations are made.  Don't unless you have to.   Firmware upgrades and resets should be avoided if the system appears to be functioning well, because firmware changes and resets just complicate matters.  FYI, I've never had a reason to do either on any of the systems I've seen.   Get the recommended firmware on the unit, then leave it alone.  The only firmware changes should be done routinely are the Sub level changes, done on USB key.  These do not require a reset or a new calibration.

 

Cheers

post #3022 of 3153
^^ I'm a newbie at Trinnov (finally running my own calibration/setup next week!), but with a fair amount of Audyssey experience, I would add the following to what Curt's saying as a "best practice":

a) It's a real good idea to take pictures of the settings for your last known "good" calibration before changing anything in the setup - which in Sherwood terms means the three screens with the speaker setup, the F6 and bass management info for each channel in the calibration, and the one with the horizontal and vertical degree results. This goes for each calibration you want: a HT one, one for two-channel stereo, etc. It's especially important since other than the three position settings as placeholders, there's really no way to save and restore previous calibrations with the R-972.
b) Better yet, get in the habit of independent measurement/accessment of your system. That way you can "know" your room and know not only what Trinnov is changing appropriately (or not, for poor calibrations), but more importantly the characteristics of the room that exist in the first place.

IMO, without external measuring capability, any calibration is essentially shooting in the dark, not matter what the screen may or may not be telling you is "good". It also tells you about what "flat", "natural", "audiophile", etc. mean for your configuration above the theoretical level in the R-972/Trinnov guides. You can learn where to optimize placement of subs and mains, the degree of dips and humps in your frequency response that exist in your room to begin with, if your speakers are working correctly (no blown components), etc. And for those of us used to running 8 to 12 position Audyssey Pro calibrations, more routine Trinnov calibrations can actually be quicker by comparison.

As to how: I'd look at the OmniMic USB-based kit from Parts Express for beginners (about $300, but it's essentially plug and play with the included software). For a best practice - albeit with a steepish learning curve, but there's an extensive thread and user guide to REW/HDMI on AVS - the REW free software, along with a calibrated UMIK-1 or UMM-6 USB type mics (LT $100) from CSL. Either way, a boom stand is a very good idea to use with the USB-based mic.

With measuring I'd look at each speaker one at a time before and after calibration to understand what the REQ is changing. You can look at the sub separately as well, but more advanced knowledge is needed for multiple subs to avoid delay and level inconsistencies if they're not equidistant from one another. Concentrate on frequency response plots and as you start to know your room better, look at waterfalls and spectrograms to follow what equalization is doing to your bass decay. And for the truly esoteric, impulse response plots.

Curt - if someone were serious about measuring Trinnov results, what else would you recommend as "best practice", besides leaving 2D/3D Remapping off for pre/post calibration runs, possibly?
Edited by sdrucker - 12/17/13 at 6:28pm
post #3023 of 3153
Curt,

Thank you for your time and explaining very clearly which makes perfect sense. I will follow the steps as suggested and will update. The new speakers added are in the same position but the speaker sizes are different. As sdrucker replied to my post to try different mic position, I moved the mic 2 feet front from the seating position and found that the FL, FR crossover rolled of at 80hz (-6db point) with center speaker angle of -1 degrees. Thank you sdrucker. Always I get three bursts for R,C,L, SBL, SBR speakers but the number of bursts varied many times for SL and SR (4 to 5 bursts) and some times I got 3 bursts for all 7 speakers and subwoofers but with 0 HZ crossover for FL and FR. I have onkyo receiver with Audyssey which I have connected Bose Accoustimass after getting R972 and can't think of going back to other receiver after addicted to Trinnov sound. At least 2 - 3 movies watched every weekend after connecting R972.

Thanks
post #3024 of 3153
tlkreddy:

My hypothesis: You have a room peak at the microphone position that gave you the 0 Hz crossover setting. Moving the microphone only a few feet took you away from the (false) room peak and let Trinnov perform as expected. As long as the number of bursts is less than 10 per channel, you should have a valid calibration. If you get to 10, check azimuth and elevation report. You will probably find that one or the other measurement is missing from the report for that speaker. If all the speakers cannot be located, remapping is impossible and will give odd results. When I had that problem, the image seemed to come from the left front. Even if all the speakers cannot be located, using EQ only does work and should offer tremendous improvement over the native system--even if some of the Trinnov magic is missing.

Jeff
post #3025 of 3153

I've had my R-972 for close to a year and recently found a need to use headphones.  I continue to get sound from the L/R even after i manually turn the speakers "off" by pressing the manual switch behind the front door and the headjack in.  The display does read "headphones." I was wondering if other have similar problems/know glitch.


Edited by Augmont - 12/18/13 at 2:28pm
post #3026 of 3153
Hi Guys,

I just recently picked up the 972 and thus far am really enjoying it..

I am trying to install the +6db file. I have moved the hex file onto the usb drives root folder (ie.. E:/), but when I insert it into the front usb port it says loading for a brief second then just flashes empty.

Can anyone educate me on the proper way to install this??

Any and all help would be much appreciated.

Thanks!!
post #3027 of 3153
Quote:
BTW, AC4L shows the R-972 selling for $499 new with free ground FedEx, and somewhere around 35 still available. I wonder if that's their final stock.

Yes it is. When I spoke to Eugene several months ago he said that Inkel (Sherwood's Korean parent) had them palletize and return all remaining B-stock units to Korea for reasons unknown. Even back then, Eugene told me that A-stock units were long gone. As of today, Accessories4Less told me they had just 11 units left. I bought one so now it's 10. I don't even need one - I have 3 B-stock units currently in different rooms in my house - but these receivers are so amazing for the price, and yet so finicky, that I decided a spare wouldn't be a bad idea. Split between the value of my 3 in-service units, it's costing me $166 per unit to have a spare. If any of them fails down the road, I can swap it out and send the errant unit back to Sherwood for repairs without my system going down in the meantime.
post #3028 of 3153
I heard the same thing today when I saw there were 10 units left and sent a PM. Quote, "once they're gone they're gone forever". I'm hooking up my unit for my project this week but I'm seriously thinking of buying a second just as a backup.

....and then there was nine (no, I didn't buy a second one yet)....what's the over/under on the day that the last one was sold?
Edited by sdrucker - 12/26/13 at 8:23pm
post #3029 of 3153
On the bright side, I got my R-972 finally set up, after a few hiccups with HDMI from the Oppo 103 (which also has input from our TiVo and an Apple TV). However, I'm too tired to run Trinnov at 3 AM. Maybe tomorrow night LOL.

As for the receiver - well, it's not as horrible as proclaimed by some of its detractors, but switching between the audio and video that are being sent to the Denon 4311 directly from the Oppo's HDMI 1 output and the audio/video sent to the R-972 via HDMI 2 output is a minor PITA. Even using "Dual Display" it works best to keep the R-972 on a different default video output than the one where I have the Oppo's A/V, until I need it. Otherwise I get strange flashing/handshaking in the existing video source I had on the Denon until I turn the R-972 off. I actually think it's an HDMI handshake/feedback problem, though. Once I get over doing A/B testing between Audyssey and Trinnov I'll probably just have the video all go to my Lumagen, and then use split A/V to send audio to the R-972, which I hope solves the problem.

At least video bypass seems to leave the Oppo's video unmolested, and the inputs I tested (two video inputs) and the pre-outs seem to work as advertised..

If I were actually using this AVR as my primary AVR for a family with limited technical skills, I'd probably lose my mind after using a more modern interface. The Denon's menus are much deeper, there's no save/load, and there's no Internet connectivity, of course, considering that it's a vintage 2009/2010 receiver. But for what I'm using it for it works. And no way would I use this without a Logitech Harmony or similar to pull different devices together.

I just don't think I'm letting my wife near it haha. Yet even the switch from non HD to HD stations isn't awful when I used the TiVo, thanks to having the Oppo decode everything to LPCM first. The only real sync issue I get is switching from a stereo TV source to one that's being decoded to PCM from a Dolby Digital source. But it's maybe 3 to 5 seconds. And it's a pleasant surprise to able to use Neural Sound again smile.gif.

I didn't even find the "check the firmware" thump I read about on the AVS thread, with no sign of it.

So far so good, at least unless some component fails.

Edit after actual sleep:
One question, albeit kind of a weird one: given the ventilation on top, how sensitive are the R-972's component boards to heat from sunlight? We have a condo where we get some day exposure sunlight, and the sun definitely comes down onto the Sherwood for at least a few hours during the day. We've had a similar situation with the Denon (which is on a stand adjacent to the Sherwood, and both receivers sit on top of open top shelves with plenty of weight support and nothing above them), but in two years haven't had any issues. Still, given the unit's history, is it a good idea to keep the Sherwood covered with a dust cover or some other kind of covering to keep it from getting indirect heat damage to its circuit boards? Kind of a strange thing to ask, but considering that the unit's about to disappear from AC4L "forever", worth considering.
Edited by sdrucker - 12/27/13 at 11:05am
post #3030 of 3153
So I loaded the 6 db boost file with a USB key with no problem (message="Upgrade Complete"), apparently. Next I went and verified that my speakers were level matched when I played REW test tones, fed by HDMI into the R-972, and playing via pre-out to the EXT. INs in my Denon 4311. The speakers were leveled within very minor db levels (roughly about +/- 1 db).

However, when I ran Trinnov, I found that first I have no subwoofer. But the angles look reasonable otherwise, don't they? And look how close the levels and distance are for the speakers. Should I be turning the sub up or down to try to get it picked up by Trinnov?:
Channel H Angle V Angle Distance -6 db Level Delay
Left 14 93 4.26 0 Hz -16 12
Center 2 100 4.22 0 Hz -15 12
Right -10 96 4.23 0 Hz -17 12
Surround R -112 81 2.68 0 Hz -16 7
Surround L 122 77 1.74 0 Hz -17 5
Subwoofer

FYI I got the mic in exactly the same position I start Audyssey calibrations with, which is the center of the MLP, within about 1" either way (I measure height, width and length relative to this center cushion), and aimed the red dot on the mic at the center of my Panny VT50 at ear height. So it wasn't placement per se, I don't think.

I then went back a step and did test tones from the Sherwood, and found that the sub channel was about 9-10 db lower than the others. Then, after bumping up my sub channel on the EXT. IN of the Denon from -1 db to 7 db, I got my sub recognized.

Final calibration results are below:

Channel H Angle V Angle Distance -6 db Level Delay
Left 17 94 4.26 76 Hz -18 12
Center 1 100 4.21 80 Hz -17 12
Right -9 95 4.23 76 Hz -18 12
Surround R -110 78 1.97 179 Hz -18 5
Surround L 124 76 1.70 179Hz -17 4
Subwoofer 90 0 3.87 19Hz -17 11

Looks like we have Trinnov! And interestingly, my -6 db aren't all that far from the -3 db I do with Audyssey Pro. I usually cross my L/R and Center at either 60 or 80 Hz, and my surrounds at anywhere from 110 to 150 Hz depending on taste. That 179 Hz crossover's a little weird, but I take it that's because my HSU ULS-15 subs goes to 200 Hz on spec. I could cut these a little with a low shelf filter on the subs at 120 or 150 Hz. But for now, I'm happy to have gotten this far in maybe four hours of work.

I'm going to do some REW measuring in a day or two, but I've got some listening to do.

Edit: I played a music BluRay, Springsteen's Live in Hyde Park, and a chase scene from Oblivion, and did level-matched A/B tests compared to Audyssey (possible with an Oppo with independent HDMI outputs). My first impression, with both 2D and 3D remapping to Music and Cinema respectively, is a more open, detailed soundstage than my Audyssey Pro/XT32 finds, with more depth to guitar and saxphone, along with more natural sounding and less nasal vocals (Bruce) or seamless dialogue (the Tom Cruise movie). The bass also is less localized and anchored with my mains.

The odd thing is that once I got the hang of the sub volume, calibrating wasn't much harder than basic Audyssey.

Pity that the R-972 is in the final days of its lifecycle, even as an A-stock closeout deal. Used judiciously, it may indeed be superior to Audyssey XT32 with Pro, possibly even with extensive tweaks to the Pro kit's Target Curve Editor. At least as an 'alternate mix' smile.gif
Edited by sdrucker - 12/28/13 at 12:10pm
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