Sherwood R-972 User Thread - Page 21

Regarding source inputs via HDMI, I found that Trinnov also re-routed the dialogue to the front right channel and essentially "dropped" the center channel when I used HDMI audio input. Running, then re-running the Trinnov setup did output to that speaker, and the speaker characteristics were displayed rationally in the Trinnov calibration results screen, but no sound was sent to the center channel when used with HDMI inputs. So, I've disabled Trinnov with HDMI audio input. I did not have this problem with TOSLINK audio inputs. It appears there are some real issues with the HDMI architecture or programming on this receiver which make HDMI highly unreliable. Hopefully, Sherwood will address this soon and release a solution via a firmware update.

Zuno, I had what might be a similiar problem - there is a setting that tells reciever to route audio to the ' best' positioned speaker- regardless of where it is hooked up to on reciever. Trinnov was messing this up, so I turned that capability off. Try that...

I think that it may be not be using the center intentionally in order to spatially raise the speaker height of the center channel dialog. It is all in the 3d remapping. I could be wrong though...

Just my thoughts on actual experience with this unit and Trinnov: The unit's continual problems of HDMI handshake (my example won't even pass some HD channels from my Sci Atl Explorer HD8300 when using HDMI only) were VERY demanding of my patience. BUT: when Trinnov - the SOLE reason I bought this receiver - dropped the center channel (when using HDMI only, not with SPDIF cables for audio), I threw in the towel. How can anyone possibly trust the real world use of this receiver and accept that Trinnov is "improving" the sound stage when it arbitrarily sends the center channel info to the right speaker? The attempts by Sherwood's Jeff and Ray to help me resolve these problems are commendable, but my impression is that, at present, the unit is still in Beta stage and not commercially stable.

To Scott911: I changed my Trinnov to "AutoRoute" from "3d Remap" in the setup guide and rebooted my HTPC source. I had horrific jaggies, then no sound, then "full volume" white noise sent to my Dynaudio speakers! Thankfully, the Dynaudio tweeters can take it, or I'd be out several thousand $ replacing them in the interest of being a Beta tester for Sherwood. Sorry to say, I have to move on. Hopefully, this is just peculiar to my unit, otherwise: see my earlier opinions...

Yikes- glad your speakers handled it, I wouldn't be too happy if you'd tried sending me a tweeter bill!

Actually- autoroute setting was the one that was screwing things up for me. I do not use a center, and the 972 was definatly messing things up with that setting.

* has anyone gotten an ETA from sherwood on the next firmware. I get the impression SW likes to keep releases to themselves and only send them in relation to a specific support inquiry, but I think it safe to say virtually all owners could benifit....

Has anyone sourced a 972 Rack Mount Kit?

Scott: If you do not use a center channel, you have no way of knowing if the Trinnov is even working as designed. I have Dynaudio 2 ways in a 6.1 configuration, and a powered sub. Source inputs are Sci Atlantic HD8300 and HTPC using an ATI 5XXX series HDMI card that outputs both Bitstream and LPCM Blu Ray HD codecs. The unit does NOT work with "HDMI only" input cables. After spending a lot of time with the unit and reading a number of reviews, I am suspicious that the 972 simply does not work with HDMI and HD audio, to say nothing of the handshake issues. For users who do not use HDMI and HD audio (6.1 or 7.1) environments, they will not be able to comment on whether the unit works at all. It appears to me that those who do and have tried HDMI only implementation have had results similar to mine: the unit does not work.

I received my new R-972 a week ago. I emailed Jeff complaining that the low bass seemed weak and he emailed me a link to the latest fw upgrade.

I had no problems upgrading the firmware. I had to move my desktop PC to the receiver( simpler than moving the receiver to the PC; I don't own a laptop ). I upgraded both the main micom( microcomputer ) and the sub micom.

Here is the result of the firmware upgrade:

FW COMPONENT DELIVERED VERSION UPGRADED VERSION
SysMicom 1.31 1.34
DSP Part 09/09/23 10/01/25
HDMI Part 1.05 1.07
M? 50 kHz 100 kHz
XM Part 2.16 same
DSP Flash 090318/090415 same
DVP Part 09/08/19 same

Here is the Result of the Trinnov calibration/computation( done after the firmware upgrade ) that I am using:

Channel H ANGLE V ANGLE DIST -6 dB POINT LEVEL DELAY
FRONT L : 23 deg 92 deg 2.66 m 157 Hz -20 dB 7 ms
CENTER : 0 deg 103 deg 2.62 m 157 Hz -19 dB 7 ms
FRONT R : -21 deg 93 deg 2.66 m 157 Hz -20 dB 7 ms
SURR R : -109 deg 95 deg 1.47 m 80 Hz -18 dB 4 ms
SURR L : 111 deg 94 deg 1.48 m 80 Hz -17 dB 4 ms
SUBW : 90 deg 0 deg 6.25 m 21 Hz 1 dB 18 ms

The front L/R and surround L/R are the same speakers, Paradigm Reference Signature S1s; the center is the matching C1, and the subwoofer is a Paradigm DSP-3400( 14 inch active driver ). The speakers were positioned using string when I got my Denon/ Audyssey MultEQ XT, about a year and a half ago and have not been touched since. As you can see, I lucked into an almost perfect SMPTE 5.1 configuration. The center channel is below the TV screen, and the satellites all have their tweeters at approximately ear height from the sweet spot, so the V ANGLES all make sense( except for the subw ).

The only subw number that makes literal sense to me is the -6 dB point. I have no idea what the H and V ANGLE, DIST, LEVEL, or DELAY numbers mean for my subw. The Audyssey also produced a funny number for the subw distance, but they explained it away as having to do with delays introduced by the internal electronics of the powered subw. The Audyssey produced subjectively stronger and better low bass than the Trinnov.

I am convinced the Trinnov remapping works, but the mic setup is VERY touchy. Getting the mic pointed exactly right is not simple and can take 15-30 min of tweaking to get right. If the center is off by just a few degrees horizontally, the Trinnov will skew the acoustic image to the left or right to compensate: an error of 4 degrees is enough to really make it unlistenable( noticeably off center ). This receiver is not for the casual user.

The low bass is still a bit weak, even with +6 dB target installed and using Natural EQ( which is supposed to boost the upper bass ), compared with the Audyssey. I am thinking of turning off Trinnov Room EQ and using a separate SVS/Audyssey box to equalize the bass. The -6 dB point is inconsistent, too high for the fronts( 157 dB ); all of the satellites are the same make and model and should have similar crossover points. The Trinnov seemingly confused a room response dip with the anechoic -6 dB point for the fronts. The Audyssey set the satellite crossover at 60 Hz for all of them. The S1s have been measured at the NRC of Canada as being anechoically flat to below 100 Hz.

I think the problem with the Trinnov Room EQ is that there is only one measurement point. Audyssey MultiQ XT uses the average of 8 different points to compute the EQ filters, so they are less likely to confuse a room-related dip or peak with the anechoic -6 dB point( crossover point ). Obviously, a single measurement point is needed to get the geometry( remapping ) correct, but, according to Floyd Toole( the NRC Canada speaker wizard now working for Harman ), Room EQ always needs more than one data point, and that seems to agree with my experience.

Also, look at the channel-level numbers in the Results above. After the firmware upgrade, the numbers make no sense when comparing the subwoofer level to the satellites. The relative levels between the satellites is believable, but the subw is more like 20dB less than the satellites than 20 dB above them as in the Results display of the Trinnov calibration/calculation( Having the subw at that high a level would be totally unlistenable ). But this is a problem with the values displayed, not the actual values applied by the receiver. Before the upgrade the numbers corresponded to what you would hear( the subw was about 25-30 dB down from the satellites in the Results display and subjectively ).

Another( minor? ) issue is that the front R-972 display doesn't distinguish between lossy Dolby and DTS input and lossless Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio. The receiver only displays "Dolby Digital" or "DTS" and there is no way of knowing which of the codecs is D-to-A converted and output to the speakers. The Denon receiver always displayed "Dolby TrueHD" or DTS HD MSTR" if it was decoding the lossless data. If I had a 7.1 config, I guess I could tell, but I don't, and I'm not getting one.

Also, even though I have set the video upconversion to "Bypass", the front display always says "v.upscale" and the red "video scaling" light is always on, even if I am running the video directly to the TV without going through the receiver.

So far, I have had no other problems with the R-972( but I am not, and will not, be using any of its video processing ).

On the whole, right now, I prefer the Sherwood/Trinnov to the Denon/Audyssey because subjectively the audio imaging and detail seem better with the Trinnov( probably a result of the Trinnov remapping ), even though the bass response of the Audyssey is subjectively better( deeper but without boominess or excessive bass ). Bass EQ can be applied the line-level subw out of the receiver, but if you want re-mapping and you want it now, the R-972 is the only place to get it.

I get "Dolby TrueHD" or DTS HD MSTR" displayed on the R-972.

Regarding your experience vs. mine: I too found the "Video Scaling" LED to light, even though I had elected "Bypass" in the setup routine. I also found the bass management to render the subwoofer effectively disabled. I just removed the 972 from my system for shipment back to Sherwood for a refund and am awaiting its replacement (Integra 70.1). I have never spent so much time on a component only to find the time wasted. Sherwood should, IMO, do the honorable thing and offer to recall these units with a full refund. I have, admittedly, become somewhat impassioned about this owing to the incredible amount of time I spent attempting to resolve issues which are obviously known to be defects by the manufacturer.

"but the subw is more like 20dB less than the satellites than 20 dB above them as in the Results display of the Trinnov calibration/calculation"

I noticed that too and assumed that the number it was reporting must be the correction it applies, not what it measures.

"Also, even though I have set the video upconversion to "Bypass", the front display always says "v.upscale" and the red "video scaling" light is always on, even if I am running the video directly to the TV without going through the receiver."

Same here as well.

You are corrrect and my comments on the level-correction Results in the long posting above are misleading. The Results displayed are the corrections applied to get equal signal levels from all speakers( including the sub ) at the sweet spot. What I said made it seem like I was assuming all of the speakers, if uncorrected, would somehow have equal levels and that the correction would make the levels unequal. What I was thinking of was the satellites, which are close to equal before the correction, with the level correction mainly needed because the surrounds are much closer to the listener than the fronts. But with the subw, that's not true( you can't assume that the subw and the sats start off equal before the correction ). But my main point remains true: I doubt that increasing the uncorrected sub level by 1 dB and decreasing the uncorrected sats by 20 dB will make them equal in level at the sweet spot. What you would hear( and measure ) would be very heavy bass and very little else.

Then my 972 must be defective. For DTS HD Master Audio, I tried a Mad Men BD, which has no user selectable codec, but which begins with a DTS HD Master Audio demo and which always displayed "DTS HD MSTR" on the Denon. For Dolby TrueHD, I used The Dark Knight BD, which does have user selectable Dolby TrueHD: even though I selected the lossless codec, only "Dolby Digital" was displayed on the 972.

I guess you got lucky. Lucky for me I do not have the horrible problems with HDMI and video that some of the other users are having. I can use only HDMI between my Oppo BD player and the 972 and both audio and video are input, though I still don't know if the lossless audio is being output. I also have component video/SPDIF inputs from a JVC D-VHS deck and an LG HD tuner/DVR into the 972 and those work also. But I am not using the Reon in the 972; I bypass it. I have not tried upcoverting from SD to HD video using the 972 because I don't need to.

"I upgraded both the main micom( microcomputer ) and the sub micom".

FW from Jeff should be the latest available.
Sorry to sound like "Shaggy" but how do insure I have also upgraded the sub micom??

There is one more oddity than I ran across today. When all of the inputs are configured to use Trinnov, you can't set any of the manual speaker settings; the navigation skips over them. And they are all blanked out... except for the crossover points, which are all set to 80 Hz, which happens to be what I put there when I was testing the 972 without using Trinnov. Now I am wondering if the -6 dB points are used by the Trinnov as crossover points or if it is computing 80 Hz crossover points??? My guess is that the Trinnov is using the -6 dB points for the crossovers and that the 80 hZ values are just something the software forgot to blank out in the displays, left over from when I was using manual settings.

In the folder containing the "972 upgrade package", there are 2 MOT files, one with the name r972mainXXXX.mot and one named R972submicomXXXXXXX.mot. When you run the INKEL UPGRADE .exe there are separate text boxes for the main and sub upgrades. The upgrade package folder contains instructions.

If I was to compose a review of my experience with the receiver, it would cite: Trinnov would not play center channel using HDMI...HDMI handshake erratic at best...No picture at least 50% of the time without re-starting reciever... HD codecs not passed and not recognized... frequent dropouts of picture and sound... Trinnov "adjustments" made formerly good, non-boomy bass disappear completely except in lowest frequency regions. Subwoofer was virtually gone from the room... Great customer support (really) except they couldn't seem to resolve many of these issues that a lot of owners have cited"

Is there any reason any of us should be expected to spend countless hours as Beta testers masquerading as end users? I hope the refund policy will be an improvement over my experience with the product!

new apple tv hooked up to r-972 via hdmi.

first second of virtually every song is triple volume of rest of track. I'd be afraid of speaker damage, if I wasn't keeping volume in check until this is sorted.

other sound file sources (cd, dvd) do not do this. But I don't think it's the apple tv because its settings are very, very basic, and a google of apple tv first-second volume problems turned up nothing.

Any ideas?

I had similar issue with my HTPC over HDMI: incredibly loud white noise screech on beginning of HD audio threads, then dead or caused reboot of the Sherwood. That's when I finally threw in the towel and RA'd the unit. Between the user's comments on this forum and other non-AVS reviews, I think it's clear these units simply don't work properly with HDMI, which, IMO, would be a key reason you'd buy one.

The 972 I am referring to is going in a friends existing HT. The prior owner left only JVC RS1 Projector with a timed out bulb & Niles In-Wall surround speakers.

New fronts are AV123 X-Statiks paired with a X-Voce center.

We chose the 972 since he was not patient enough to wait for the Emotiva UMC-1.

He had 2 Pro AV installers over yesterday that were very tech savvy & also had some unique sound knowledge. 1 Guy left to go set-up audio for a band that was performing live later that night & the other is a studio producer.

I had warned them that HDMI audio was likely going to be an issue. After the latest download they gamely gave it a try anyway. With a Pioneer Elite Blu-Ray running HDMI audio they about jumped out of their shoes as they heard a high pitched white noise that was barely audible to me briefly. They continued to hear it & acted as if fingernails were being scraped across a blackboard. Perhaps I have spent too much time around aircraft!!

We switched the audio over to an optical output & everyone is happy for now. More tuning to come as we get this unit dialed in. Hints on the microphone & diagnostic test would be greatly appreciated at this point.

A couple here have mentioned that Sherwood tech support has tried to be very helpful. Do you get the impression that they recognize what the issues are and are working towards resolution- presumably with a planned firmware upgrade? In otherwords, are they suggesting there is light at end if the tunnel?

I spoke with Sherwood Tech support yesterday afternoon and yes they do realize that there are issues. I was told that they will be releasing a new firmware update in the near future. We can all hope it resolves many of the issues we are all experiencing.

OK, let me say I am very happy with my 972, but here are some issues I ran into and fixed.

When I went back to the 1.33 firmware (told it might be more stable), things got crazy. Handshake issues, center channel gone in 3d mapping. I have since gone back to 1.34 and things are working great. My center channel is back in 3d remap and handshake issues have decreased. I also noticed that when I used the on-board VP I would get drop outs when I watched blu-rays on my PS3. I have since disabled the VP and the problem has gone away. All of my sources are 1080 so do not really need it anyway.

I also used the 6+ DB bass curve on my systems and the helped the bass (at least in my room)

When I upgraded the firmware I reset the unit after every step.

This is precisely the outcome I experienced when attempting to use HDMI audio via my HTPC. So: no HDMI audio = no HD audio. So: what is the point of wasting a single minute with this product? My unit went back to Sherwood for refund. I can confirm via conversations with both Jeff and Ray that Sherwood is aware of problems with the unit. They have been genuinely interested and concerned and attempted to work with me to find fixes. What I don't understand is why Sherwood ever decided to ship a product that is clearly in Beta stage. On a positive note: I didn't have to replace $2000 worth of Dynaudio D260 tweeters when the white noise hit my speakers! Best of luck to you, but I'm moving on to a receiver that will hopefully allow me to watch TV and HD movies without all the drama and time spent.

Probably because it was supposed to have shipped in August 2007 and somebody wearing a suit said "Enough is enough, ship it!"

Probably because it was supposed to have shipped in August 2007 and somebody wearing a suit said "Enough is enough, ship it!"

- AMEN! Not even Microsoft WindowsME or Vista was THIS bad!

The SVS/Audyssey Bass EQ box cannot be used with the R-972 if you want to use the Trinnov Optimizer because of the unique Trinnov mic, which wouldn't work with the SVS box. And even if you turn off the Trinnov Room EQ( but keep the Re-mapping ), the SVS still won't work because you can't change the channel levels with Trinnov Re-mapping on, something that the SVS box requires you to do. And without the Trinnov, the R-972 is just an over-priced A/V receiver without any room correction.

So the only way I can hear adequate low bass with Trinnov on is to turn up the subwoofer level control on the sub. To me, all of the Trinnov EQ curves are too bright, even with Cinema EQ on, so I am only using the remapping( which, by the way, is a revelation, and the reason I am keeping the 972 ) but not Trinnov Room EQ.

In the music mode, with Trinnov remapping, among other good things, you can really hear the front image widen in a 60 degree arc, even on 2-channel CDs with Dolby PL II. The image detail and specificity is also better than you get from Audyssey, in the full 360 degree sound field. For example, even with 5.1( no rear surrounds ), you can actually sense the very specific relative positions and distances of the acoustic images behind you and around you without vagueness or blurring. "The scales have fallen from my ears..."

Why can't you use the bass EQ as a standalone unit after Trinnov setup?

"To me, all of the Trinnov EQ curves are too bright, even with Cinema EQ on, "

That was the biggest reason I returned mine.

I wonder if it's our units or our ears.

Could be either given the small sample of users so far.

Read the SVS manual and you will see why it can't be used with the 972.
And no, it's not our ears, or a "sampling error", it's the Trinnov EQ in some 972s.