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New DVDO iScan Duo [2.0 firmware released] - Page 111

post #3301 of 3834
This points to a difficulty in terminology. What does a 3D CMS mean?
  • It can mean color management using a 3D (e.g., frame-packing) signal.
  • It can mean color management in 3 planes of adjustment--lightness, saturation, and hue.
  • It can mean calibrating throughout the color space, instead of at the gamut border only.

The first meaning is not really related to color management per se. It is a specific type of signal designed to provide depth to the image.
The third meaning is not, I think, useful. All it describes is additional colors that are adjusted by the CMS. The nature of the adjustment is exactly the same. A red inside the color space does not exist in another "dimension". It is just a different version of a fully saturated color, must the same way that a DCi red is a different version of a color compared to the Rec. 709 red.
3D color management is best understood, I would argue, as adjustment across the three aspects of color performance: the second meaning. Not only does it match common sense, it also describes the evolution of color management from very primitive systems (such as what's found in the Pioneer Kuro) that adjust hue only, to second-generation devices that adjust hue and chroma, to the most modern and effective systems that independently adjust hue, saturation, and lightness. Furthermore, HSL are actually different dimensions of any single color.
post #3302 of 3834
Thanks Tom: sure helps to get a more a leg up on what we're actually doing! You may have to re-remind us old farts, when we forget in 6 months! (Now I know what HSL means!)
post #3303 of 3834
This is such a petty thing ask, with the millions suffering from far more significant problems due to the power outage. My battery backup is beginning to run out of juice, will the iScan Duo retain settings (particularly CMS) after a power loss of say two days?
post #3304 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1981 View Post

This is such a petty thing ask, with the millions suffering from far more significant problems due to the power outage. My battery backup is beginning to run out of juice, will the iScan Duo retain settings (particularly CMS) after a power loss of say two days?

No problem - it will retain the values.
Now if your TV is OFF for a few days, and gets cold, when it comes back on some values there may change. Probably not enough to be noticeable.
post #3305 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

No problem - it will retain the values.
Now if your TV is OFF for a few days, and gets cold, when it comes back on some values there may change. Probably not enough to be noticeable.

Greatly appreciate your (fast) response. Puts my mind at ease regarding that.

Thanks again!
post #3306 of 3834
Follow my quest with mdehoog (Micheal) to implement 75% Saturation patterns in the Duo pattern generator
Something we have wished for a long time.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1174468/the-official-chromapure-thread/3210#post_22546136
Let us test his new version. Duo owners, stand up and be counted

If Micheal is succesful Tom Huffman may be able to incorporate the commands in ChromaPure
This would eliminate the advantage CalMan has had up to now
Edited by catmother - 11/1/12 at 8:05am
post #3307 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

Follow my quest with mdehoog (Micheal) to implement 75% Saturation patterns in the Duo pattern generator
Something we have wished for a long time.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1174468/the-official-chromapure-thread/3210#post_22546136
Let us test his new version. Duo owners, stand up and be counted
If Micheal is succesful Tom Huffman may be able to incorporate the commands in ChromaPure
This would eliminate the advantage CalMan has had up to now

Well done Michael (and Catmother).

I've downloaded it and quite frankly it looks a bit more than having just 75% saturation value capability.

hope to try it out shortly.
Please note it is not active until connected to the Duo..
post #3308 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Well done Michael (and Catmother).
I've downloaded it and quite frankly it looks a bit more than having just 75% saturation value capability.
hope to try it out shortly.
Please note it is not active until connected to the Duo..

The rules are the same as for the Duo Control panel

1. The Duo must be on
2. The Duo must be connected to a display
3. The RS232C connection to the Duo must be established.

Suggest using V 0.5 to (control panel) first to ascertain proper operation then shutting down 0.5 and launching 0.7

Initial results
ERROR: Error setting 'Custom Test Pattern' to '91 27 27 100': BadDataLength (Red @ 75%)
ERROR: Error setting 'Custom Test Pattern' to '80 36 36 100': BadDataLength (Green at 75)
ERROR: Error setting 'Custom Test Pattern' to '37 98 37 100': BadDataLength (White @75%)
ERROR: Error setting 'Custom Test Pattern' to '0 100 0 100': BadDataLength (Green @100%)

Looks it is not quite there yet but it does respond to changes in settings.
Edited by catmother - 11/3/12 at 5:42pm
post #3309 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

ERROR: Error setting 'Custom Test Pattern' to '91 27 27 100': BadDataLength (Red @ 75%)
ERROR: Error setting 'Custom Test Pattern' to '80 36 36 100': BadDataLength (Green at 75)
ERROR: Error setting 'Custom Test Pattern' to '37 98 37 100': BadDataLength (White @75%)
ERROR: Error setting 'Custom Test Pattern' to '0 100 0 100': BadDataLength (Green @100%)
Thanks for testing catmother.

The error may be due to the inconsistencies in JasperC's post. He says that the numbers must have spaces (0x20) between each value, but when he lists the commands he uses they have nulls (0x00) between each value. I went with the nulls, which may be why it's not working.

When I get home I'll create a new version that uses spaces between the values. I'm hoping this will fix the BadDataLength error.
post #3310 of 3834
I have uploaded a newer version that uses spaces instead of nulls between the test pattern values. Hopefully it fixes the BadDataLength errors.

You can find it here.
post #3311 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdehoog View Post

I have uploaded a newer version that uses spaces instead of nulls between the test pattern values. Hopefully it fixes the BadDataLength errors.
You can find it here.

When I click "Send" in the "Custom Test Pattern" section after selecting a Preset (for example red 100% Luminance, 75% Saturation), no pattern shows up on the display.

If I select one of the standard DVDO test patterns using the CMS page, they show up fine.

EDIT: The message that shows up when I hit send says: "INFO: Set 'Custom Test Pattern to '91 27 27 100' ". However, no pattern is shown on the display, as I said.
Edited by Kilgore - 11/1/12 at 11:33pm
post #3312 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

When I click "Send" in the "Custom Test Pattern" section after selecting a Preset (for example red 100% Luminance, 75% Saturation), no pattern shows up on the display.
If I select one of the standard DVDO test patterns using the CMS page, they show up fine.
EDIT: The message that shows up when I hit send says: "INFO: Set 'Custom Test Pattern to '91 27 27 100' ". However, no pattern is shown on the display, as I said.
Does it work if you select the "White" test pattern on the CMS tab first, and then switch to the Custom Test Pattern tab and press send?
post #3313 of 3834
I used latest version 0.6.0 with the following settings:

Radio button 'Presets'

75% Luminance
75% Saturation

'Size' 50%

Results:

White Works OK
Drop down menu selecting all other colours gives good results.

Not yet checked out meter values but it is working alright.

Will do some more checks today.

Thanks Michael
post #3314 of 3834
Everything works well for me from an ability to get patterns onto the Display screen via the Duo.
Looking very good at the moment.

I am just a little concerned regarding target values on the 'Manual' rather than 'Presets' section at reduced saturation.

I am not a techy person but I note that the XYZ values change but 'x' and 'y' do not ie they stay as per 100% saturation.
Surely being at different places on the x,y graph they should also change?

Certainly the patterns change if reduced saturation is chosen so perhaps I should not be concerned.

Apologies if there is good reason for this
Edited by PE06MCG - 11/2/12 at 6:28am
post #3315 of 3834
Just done a quick calibration using 75% saturation patterns via the Duo and Control Panel combo.
Used Chromapure and selected the 75% color gamut from dropdown reference gamut on Color management tab.

Results are excellent, got dE on average about 0.4%.

PQ looks very good and will now try using Calman Colorchecker and compare it with results done via Calman calibration on my 'Day' setting.
post #3316 of 3834
The new Custom Test Pattern are displayed on the condition of manually activating the "Test Pattern" button of the remote before the first send.
After that it works perfectly.
It works also by selecting a test pattern in the CMS menu that means that the Test Pattern selection must not be OFF.
Edited by Kerlucun - 11/2/12 at 7:21am
post #3317 of 3834
ColorChecker results.

Normally i would use a C6 meter so there may be some error because I am using the OEM D3 Meter with Calman software.

Ignoring the 5 Grayscale patterns I have an average dE 2000 of about 1.1.
Worst values were:

Light Skin 2.4
Orange 2.0
Orange Yellow 1.6

All other values were very low including the usually troublesome Cyan which came in at 0.6.

Very similar (apart from Cyan that is) to the results when using Calman software on Calman meter (my Day setting).
I get lower dE2000 values for the above 'culprits' but worse in the Purple Cyan areas.

However not an exact comparison because I used 2.2 gamma for Chromapure and ITU_BT.1886 gamma for Calman.

Both are not too bad for a non 3D LUT Cube calibration.
In fact would 3D Cube calibration give me any visible improvement in PQ?
post #3318 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdehoog View Post

Does it work if you select the "White" test pattern on the CMS tab first, and then switch to the Custom Test Pattern tab and press send?

I will check this out later this evening when I get home.
post #3319 of 3834
Hi,

I wondered for a long time about the utility and the way of functioning of the parameter ''Main Menu -> Output Setup -> Chromaticity _-> User'.
Indeed, once entered the different x,y values, measured new Gamut did not seem to go into the nails of that of the standard.
The efficiency of this function seemed to me at least doubtful.

It is by reading the thread "calibration HCFR-saturation 75% mesure continue" ( http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1362&t=30023447 ) introduced by JeanRaconte that I asked myself the question:

Would not be a calibration based for the 75 % Saturations?

I thus rereleased my probe and proceeded to some tries and BINGO it is the case.
The function Chromaticity user allows to settle automatically Gamut for 75 % of saturation, it is enough to measure primary colors and white then to fill the x,y values to obtain a satisfactory result.

Two notice:

1) It seems best to work with the diffuser native Gamut , we can thus forget the JVC standard and Wide1 mode for which the linearity is doubtless not exemplary.
2) If you then wish to calibrate the luminance, please, use 75% sat patterns.

Demonstration:








Vidéo: JVC X3 , iScan Duo, Panasonic DMP-BDT310, VU+ Duo sous VTI
HiFi: Tri_amplification active, enceintes DIY Phoenix de S. Linkwtz, Tact RCS et 3*S2150, Dreambox 7000/Quad FM4
post #3320 of 3834
Hello,

As the result of the calibration via the function "Chromaticity user" is not yet perfect it is possible to improve the result by cheating a little.

How?

Simply by modifying slightly and in the opposite direction the mesured values of the color to be improved.
For example if red primary color fires too much towards the blue (after correction) it is enough to give a value x smaller than the mesured one for this red primary. (In the real world you have also to move slightly the y value also).

Here is what I get (I apologise for my english).


post #3321 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Everything works well for me from an ability to get patterns onto the Display screen via the Duo.
Looking very good at the moment.
I am just a little concerned regarding target values on the 'Manual' rather than 'Presets' section at reduced saturation.
I am not a techy person but I note that the XYZ values change but 'x' and 'y' do not ie they stay as per 100% saturation.
Surely being at different places on the x,y graph they should also change?
Certainly the patterns change if reduced saturation is chosen so perhaps I should not be concerned.
Apologies if there is good reason for this

Good find. This is because the xyY and XYZ values in that group were being set before the saturation was applied (the saturation is applied in xyY space). I have fixed this in the latest version.

I have also added an Enable Test Pattern button to the Custom Test Pattern tab, so people can easily enable the test patterns before using the custom functionality.

You can find the new version here (0.7).
post #3322 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdehoog View Post

Good find. This is because the xyY and XYZ values in that group were being set before the saturation was applied (the saturation is applied in xyY space). I have fixed this in the latest version.
I have also added an Enable Test Pattern button to the Custom Test Pattern tab, so people can easily enable the test patterns before using the custom functionality.
You can find the new version here (0.7).

Michael you are a genius and have exceeded our wildest expectations.
It all just works in 0.7

Selection of Luminance, Saturation and Pattern size, it all works.

You have done the Duo community a very big favor, how can we thank you.
Edited by catmother - 11/3/12 at 7:05am
post #3323 of 3834
Confirm all is OK with version 0.7.0

Like Catmother I am delighted with the speed and ingenuity you put into updating this program..
All done without the use of your own Duo.

You have my heartfelt thanks Michael.
post #3324 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Confirm all is OK with version 0.7.0
Like Catmother I am delighted with the speed and ingenuity you put into updating this program..
All done without the use of your own Duo.
You have my heartfelt thanks Michael.

No worries, glad it's working for you.
post #3325 of 3834
I am experimenting with the 'Manual' part of the 'Custom Test Pattern' tab of 'Duo Control Panel'.

My interest lies in duplicating the industry standard 'ColorChecker' series of 24 patterns that I understand effectively checks calibration throughout the full Cube not just the 5x5x5 points that 3D LUT calibration brings (interpolation like with none 3D LUT's such as with Duo is necessary for all points in between).
Certainly my ColorChecker results with Calman have indicated that perhaps not too much improvement can be expected if I use a 3D LUT so my Duo does a magnificent job with calibration of my LCD Panel.

Using the xyY input fields it is no problem at all to duplicate the individual patterns.

For example, one of the 24 (#4) is called 'Foliage' and has the values x= 0.3372, y= 0.4420, Y=0.1329.

I've only checked it visually with one generated via Calman's excellent workflow capability but it seems to be identical. I will check them out with a meter tomorrow when my weekend time is not expected in other directions.
post #3326 of 3834
Was there an upgrade?

I noticed the Panel File now has Nov 5, 2012 on it? Re: the Previous Nov 3, 2012

Now if we could only get our Meters to read the results while making the adjustments. Or is there a way to do this without having to go in, make adjustment, go out and re-establish our calibrating software to see how the Graph will now look?
Edited by p5browne - 11/6/12 at 10:28am
post #3327 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Was there an upgrade?
I noticed the Panel File now has Nov 5, 2012 on it?

See post #3321.

Now acts as a Pattern Generator as well via 'Custom Test Pattern' Tab.
post #3328 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Was there an upgrade?
I noticed the Panel File now has Nov 5, 2012 on it? Re: the Previous Nov 3, 2012
Now if we could only get our Meters to read the results while making the adjustments. Or is there a way to do this without having to go in, make adjustment, go out and re-establish our calibrating software to see how the Graph will now look?

Only with autocal. Autocal suppresses the Duo output so the display stays on the CP output.
post #3329 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

Only with autocal. Autocal suppresses the Duo output so the display stays on the CP output.

So when ChromaPure Autocal is finished, it now transposes the results into the Duo? Elsewise, where do the results end up since Calman and ChromaPure can't actually, in our case, calibrate the TV set?
post #3330 of 3834
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

So when ChromaPure Autocal is finished, it now transposes the results into the Duo? Elsewise, where do the results end up since Calman and ChromaPure can't actually, in our case, calibrate the TV set?

Go here http://www.chromapure.com/demos.asp - top of page

and watch the autocal demo.

When you are done you will have an excellent understanding of how autocal works

And by BTW after autocal finds the best value for a parameter it is stored in the Duo
You can see these values by using the Duo Control Panel

These values are sent to your display which is now completely calibrated using the stored Duo values for gray scale and color.
Edited by catmother - 11/7/12 at 8:53am
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