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Windows 7: Do you really need CoreAVC or Haali Media Splitter?

post #1 of 60
9/17/09 at 8:36am
Thread Starter 
Do you really need CoreAVC and the Haali Media Splitter?

I'm doing some research and it appears as though Windows 7 has built-in support for them and they also use the newer Media Foundation instead of DirectShow...

Also, Media Foundation supports DXVA v2.0 so wouldn't the built-in H.264 Media Foundation codec have hardware acceleration?

I'm also not sure why you'd need the Haali Media Splitter since I thought there was a built-in MKV splitter...
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post #2 of 60
9/17/09 at 8:42am
Windows 7 doesn't have a .mkv splitter, thus Haali Media Splitter is still needed.

The built-in decoder is a fine DXVA decoder but not for decoding in software mode.
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post #3 of 60
9/17/09 at 8:50am
Windows 7 does not have a built-in MKV splitter and Haali splitter is know to be very buggy on Win7, crashing about 1,500 times a day according to Microsoft.

You don't really need CoreAVC since the MS Win7 decoder can use DXVA decoding for far lower CPU usage than any CPU only software decoder.

The catch is, MS Win7 decoder is know to be buggy, even in the RTM release. Doom9 forums has plenty of horror stories about it. MPC-HC's DXVA decoder is far more reliable, but doesn't support VC-1 interlaced files, only progressive. MPC-HC's H.264 DXVA works great though for both progressive and interlaced.

There's also other limitations in MS Win7 decoders, you'll find out pretty quickly.
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post #4 of 60
9/17/09 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDGT View Post

Windows 7 does not have a built-in MKV splitter and Haali splitter is know to be very buggy on Win7, crashing about 1,500 times a day according to Microsoft.

You don't really need CoreAVC since the MS Win7 decoder can use DXVA decoding for far lower CPU usage than any CPU only software decoder.

The catch is, MS Win7 decoder is know to be buggy, even in the RTM release. Doom9 forums has plenty of horror stories about it. MPC-HC's DXVA decoder is far more reliable, but doesn't support VC-1 interlaced files, only progressive. MPC-HC's H.264 DXVA works great though for both progressive and interlaced.

There's also other limitations in MS Win7 decoders, you'll find out pretty quickly.

\\
yep i switched to mpc-hc, Microsofts decoder was really acting up on some of my mkvs...
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post #5 of 60
9/17/09 at 9:34am
Thread Starter 
I'd creating a dedicated HTPC using Windows 7 and want to use Media Center so MPC-HC is really out of the question...

You mention that the built-in H.264 is much lower CPU usage than any other software decoder. Does that it doesn't have hardware acceleration like CoreAVC?

Also, how well is the new DivX beta MKV splitter? (it's made for Media Foundation instead of DirectShow)
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post #6 of 60
9/17/09 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofakng View Post

I'd creating a dedicated HTPC using Windows 7 and want to use Media Center so MPC-HC is really out of the question...

You mention that the built-in H.264 is much lower CPU usage than any other software decoder. Does that it doesn't have hardware acceleration like CoreAVC?

Also, how well is the new DivX beta MKV splitter? (it's made for Media Foundation instead of DirectShow)

You can use the stand alone MPC-HC Codecs within Windows 7 Media Center.
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post #7 of 60
9/17/09 at 9:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDGT View Post

Windows 7 does not have a built-in MKV splitter and Haali splitter is know to be very buggy on Win7, crashing about 1,500 times a day according to Microsoft.

What? I've been using it since the early developer preview release of Win 7 and it has worked flawlessly...
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post #8 of 60
9/17/09 at 9:42am
http://lists.matroska.org/pipermail/...st/003533.html

Quote:
Splitter.ax is crashing around 1500 times per day on Windows 7.
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post #9 of 60
9/17/09 at 10:47am
On my Win7 x64 PC, installation of Haali is a sure way to cause the PC never able to playback any AVC file in WMP.
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post #10 of 60
9/17/09 at 12:17pm
AVC file ???

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post #11 of 60
9/17/09 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

AVC file ???


H.246, MPEG-4 AVC (Advanced Video Coding), MPEG-4 Part 10, etc... We really have a lot of names for it...
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post #12 of 60
9/17/09 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDGT View Post

Windows 7 does not have a built-in MKV splitter and Haali splitter is know to be very buggy on Win7, crashing about 1,500 times a day according to Microsoft.

You don't really need CoreAVC since the MS Win7 decoder can use DXVA decoding for far lower CPU usage than any CPU only software decoder.

The catch is, MS Win7 decoder is know to be buggy, even in the RTM release. Doom9 forums has plenty of horror stories about it. MPC-HC's DXVA decoder is far more reliable, but doesn't support VC-1 interlaced files, only progressive. MPC-HC's H.264 DXVA works great though for both progressive and interlaced.

There's also other limitations in MS Win7 decoders, you'll find out pretty quickly.

I have not exerienced this at all.

I dropped Haali splitter on and nothing else, and have nothing but a smooth experience.

I recomend trying the simpliest configuration and only change things to address problems.
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post #13 of 60
9/17/09 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDGT View Post

Windows 7 does not have a built-in MKV splitter and Haali splitter is know to be very buggy on Win7, crashing about 1,500 times a day according to Microsoft.

You don't really need CoreAVC since the MS Win7 decoder can use DXVA decoding for far lower CPU usage than any CPU only software decoder.

Wrong and wrong....

1) read into that bug report and you'll see what the issue is.. and it is not Haali's splitter.

2) DXVA will _ALWAYS_ have lower CPU usage. Is that not good? Not really as those lower cycles come at a cost of stream manipulation (color correction, hue, brightness, cropping etc.). So lower CPU usage? or Non-Manipulation. Let the customer decide.... but DXVA is not an option for us and CoreAVC.... we will stick with CUDA.
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post #14 of 60
9/17/09 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by betaboy View Post

Wrong and wrong....

1) read into that bug report and you'll see what the issue is.. and it is not Haali's splitter.

2) DXVA will _ALWAYS_ have lower CPU usage. Is that not good? Not really as those lower cycles come at a cost of stream manipulation (color correction, hue, brightness, cropping etc.). So lower CPU usage? or Non-Manipulation. Let the customer decide.... but DXVA is not an option for us and CoreAVC.

Then apparently, you'd better fix issues with not being able to use CUDA for certain streams or whatever is actually the problem smittyline is experiencing.
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post #15 of 60
9/17/09 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

Then apparently, you'd better fix issues with not being able to use CUDA for certain streams or whatever is actually the problem smittyline is experiencing.

There is obviously something wrong somewhere in his chain that its not working properly as we are fully compliant with the current CUDA SDK and are developing against an NVIDIA ION Development hardware kit. But I will ping the team here and at NVIDIA to make sure.
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post #16 of 60
9/17/09 at 5:08pm
Thread Starter 
Which is more accurate then, the Windows 7 built-in decoder or CoreAVC?

Does CoreAVC decode any additional stream types or anything like that?
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post #17 of 60
9/17/09 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofakng View Post

Which is more accurate then, the Windows 7 built-in decoder or CoreAVC?

Does CoreAVC decode any additional stream types or anything like that?

You will find none of the problems that are present with the built-in WMP AVC decoder in Windows 7 (Go to the Doom9 AVC forum if you want to just get a glimpse of all the issues.) are present in CoreAVC. The evil that is Media Foundation is the problem and how it highjacks directshow and how MF will not allow you to interject custom splitters likes Haali's.
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post #18 of 60
9/17/09 at 5:55pm
Thread Starter 
BetaBoy, are you a developer of CoreAVC? (I'm just wondering since I see your name over at the CoreAVC forums)

I've purchased CoreAVC a few months ago and have been thrilled. I'm only trying to understand the differences now that Windows 7 includes certain other decoders.

What's the big difference then between CoreAVC and Microsoft's decoder? It sounds like you're saying that CoreAVC does not modify the stream (so it's basically "pixel perfect" when it gets to the television) but Microsoft's decoder is performing color correction and other things which are typically bad when you want an accurate reproduction of the movie.

Also, I'm using a GTX 285 and just installed the DivX technology preview. Playing an H.264 movie (with DXVA, I'm assuming) gives me about 3% CPU usage. However, using MPC-HC with CoreAVC (and CUDA enabled) gives me about 13% CPU.

The difference doesn't even matter to me but it's something I did notice in my very limited tests.

EDIT: Also, why do you say that Media Foundation is evil? Didn't DivX just develop ("interject?") a custom MKV splitter for MF?
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post #19 of 60
9/17/09 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by betaboy View Post

Wrong and wrong....

1) read into that bug report and you'll see what the issue is.. and it is not Haali's splitter.

2) DXVA will _ALWAYS_ have lower CPU usage. Is that not good? Not really as those lower cycles come at a cost of stream manipulation (color correction, hue, brightness, cropping etc.).

I'll be buggered if I can tell a whit of difference in those regards, in casual viewing, playing a 1080p mkv with DXVA off vs. DXVA on. You'll need to provide details (which, if forthcoming, will likely convince me and many others who are sticklers for image quality to pay for your product .
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post #20 of 60
9/18/09 at 1:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by merzbow View Post

You'll need to provide details (which, if forthcoming, will likely convince me and many others who are sticklers for image quality to pay for your product .

I agree, a statement like that is useless without some hard facts.

Except for the fact that I bought said product a few years ago, and have been waiting for GPU acceleration ever since. Now it is here, in the form of CUDA and limited to nvidia systems only, and also with a higher CPU-load than MPC HC DXVA.

I'm not overly impressed.
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post #21 of 60
9/18/09 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty2k1 View Post

You can use the stand alone MPC-HC Codecs within Windows 7 Media Center.

How do you do that? I actually went back to my XP HTPS setup yesterday because I got sick of trying to get W7MC to use HA on VC-1 rips.
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post #22 of 60
9/18/09 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slaxer07 View Post

How do you do that? I actually went back to my XP HTPS setup yesterday because I got sick of trying to get W7MC to use HA on VC-1 rips.

I found AntiPack to be particularly useful for this. I haven't tested it with VC-1 rips yet, though.

This gives you instructions on how to do it manually but I haven't had much success going that route.
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post #23 of 60
9/18/09 at 9:21am
I can't speak for RTM, but for the RC I had to put in Haali just to get some of my M2TS files to play. On my new build I haven't yet installed it, but will likely do so soon. Was this a change from RC to RTM?
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post #24 of 60
9/18/09 at 9:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael View Post

I can't speak for RTM, but for the RC I had to put in Haali just to get some of my M2TS files to play. On my new build I haven't yet installed it, but will likely do so soon. Was this a change from RC to RTM?

No RTM works just the same, but with higher perfomance H.264 (better).
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post #25 of 60
9/19/09 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

I found AntiPack to be particularly useful for this. I haven't tested it with VC-1 rips yet, though.

Hmm, just tried playing the Blu-ray rip of Fast & Furious via Windows 7 MC and Windows Media Player on my Zotac ION build. It's using the Windows filters. Can't seem to get it to use the MPC Video Decoders...

Oh well... Given up on using 7MC for VC-1 rips for now. It's still early days. Heck, Windows 7 won't be released officially until next month. Hopefully, we'll see VC-1 acceleration in Media Center in the near future.
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post #26 of 60
9/19/09 at 11:20pm
I don't mind a tiny difference between CUDA and DXVA. If CUDA can handle every video formats I throw at it like h.264, vc1, mpeg2, interlaced video, flash video as efficiently, I might go this route and forget all the headaches about what is and what's not compatible with DXVA.
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post #27 of 60
9/20/09 at 9:06am
At least I run Haali's splitter on Win7 and so does a friend of mine and we haven't experienced a single crash caused by it. Given that the crash report links to a codec pack I'm not surprised that it doesn't work...
//Danne
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post #28 of 60
9/20/09 at 12:43pm
If you are having problem you can also try hjsplit as well.
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post #29 of 60
9/20/09 at 3:04pm
To bad you ruled out MPC-HC. I use both RTM and RC Windows 7. It plays everything I can throw at it on both 64 and 32 bit versions. It's the fastest media player I've experienced to date when using the Nvidia accelerator.
No bugs to report as yet.

I can't say the same for the Windows Media Center.
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post #30 of 60
9/20/09 at 5:39pm
I just install the divx mkv tech preview, it supports media foundation and connects to Win7's decoder for DXVA.
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