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Ayre DX-5 bluray player - Page 42

post #1231 of 1423
Hi Charles,

Thanks for the response, have you listened to the latest wadia players, they are a lot better then the older ones. (in my ears anyway)
Another plus is that the transport is dead quiet when playing,.

Anyway this is an Ayre thread, I find it a bit difficult to visualize twice the performance from the upgrade as you mentioned.
What is exactly done in the analog output, to accomplish that, I am just trying to get a feel where the improvements will be.

My system is reasonably simple, Accuphase E-560 amplifier, Magico V3 speakers, Ayre DX-5, wadia 381i and NBS, Cardas, wireworld, Jena labs wiring loom.
Overall I am very happy with the system, and any changes I make are easy to point out.

Don't get me wrong, I like Ayre products, but that the upgrade will give me twice the soundstage, dynamics is a bit hard to grasp.
But you do have my interest now, probably I will order the upgrade, might be a long waiting time.

Regards,

Olaf
post #1232 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezap2 View Post

Hi Charles,

Thanks for the response, have you listened to the latest wadia players, they are a lot better then the older ones. (in my ears anyway)
Another plus is that the transport is dead quiet when playing,.

Anyway this is an Ayre thread, I find it a bit difficult to visualize twice the performance from the upgrade as you mentioned.
What is exactly done in the analog output, to accomplish that, I am just trying to get a feel where the improvements will be.

My system is reasonably simple, Accuphase E-560 amplifier, Magico V3 speakers, Ayre DX-5, wadia 381i and NBS, Cardas, wireworld, Jena labs wiring loom.
Overall I am very happy with the system, and any changes I make are easy to point out.

Don't get me wrong, I like Ayre products, but that the upgrade will give me twice the soundstage, dynamics is a bit hard to grasp.
But you do have my interest now, probably I will order the upgrade, might be a long waiting time.

Regards,

Olaf

Dear Olaf,

I understand your hesitation -- and rightfully so. But the best way to make a decision is to try it out in your own system before purchasing it. You may not have a dealer that has the new model in stock for hundreds of kilometers. So that is tough and I understand.

We can't give a money back guarantee because we aren't set up to sell used equipment. But go look at the forums (any audio forum) and do a search on "ayre upgrade" I don't think we have ever had a single upgrade where a single person felt like it wasn't well worth the price. But it could happen. If it does, I'm sure that you can sell it on Audiogon or similar and recoup the upgrade investment.

Best regards,
Charlies Hansen.
post #1233 of 1423
Charles,

What are the updates coming on the kxr and the mxr? You mentioned them so I thought I would ask.

Jeff
post #1234 of 1423
Probably some time in the fall. That is just a guess.
post #1235 of 1423
My next question was going to be when so that's cool. I should have asked, what do those updates change in those products?
post #1236 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezap2 View Post

I have some hybrid CD/SACD's, when I play the CD layer on my Wadia it exceeds the performance of the SACD playback on the DX-5.
(Soundstage, dynamics, resolution)
When playing a CD in both machines the performance is closer, but the Wadia still wins.

It's been so long ago that I had nearly forgotten. There is an interesting back-story to the Wadia 381. It was supposed to be their "entry-level" player at the very lowest cost. It had a BEAUTIFUL chassis that was designed by Alex Rasmussen at Neal Feay. (He has designed over half of the current Ayre products, all of the Aesthetix product, all of Classe's "pre-Delta series" product (he builds the Delta Series but doesn't love the way they look), all of the Constellation products, and many, many, MANY more beautiful products. The Wadia design was based on the idea that in high volumes fancy extrusions can be made very cost-effectively. Well by the time they went to put that player into production, they could only afford to build something less that 1/10 of the original projections. So that product ended costing a LOT more than planned.

Then another "curious coincidence" happened at the same time. The original sales manager at Ayre was a great guy but we had some fallings out when the company was first starting up. It is always very stressful as there is never enough money and always too much work. We eventually decided that the best thing to do was to part ways. He was almost immediately hired by Wadia. An although his official title was "sales manager" he was literally only one or two classes away from earning his Electrical Engineering degree. So he knew a LOT of how the circuitry of the Ayre products worked.

And of course MANY of Ayre' original ideas showed up in later Wadia products, starting with the 381. Things such as zero-feedback analog stages, zero feedback current-to-voltage converters, and on and on. This was on TOP of all the secrets that Wadia had discovered for themselves. The 381 ended sounding SO GOOD that they were afraid to release it, because the CHEAPEST model in their lineup was the BEST SOUNDING one. My friend told me that it didn't end up being a problem at all for Wadia, because everyone that could afford an 861 or one of the more expensive models never even TRIED the 381! They were in the market for an $8,000 to $10,000 player and didn't want to waste their time listening to a $3500 player because the JUST KNEW that it couldn't possibly be as good!!!

The moral of that story is that many people (especially reviewers!) listen with their wallets, and not their ears....

As far as comparing the DX-5 to the Wadia 381, I can GUARANTEE you that if you came to our factory and we pulled out the DX-5 and replaced it with the Wadia 381, you would be dumfounded at how much better the Ayre sounds.

We go to EXTREME lengths to ensure that our system is a neutral as is humanly possible. On the other hand, you have undoubtedly tuned your system is some way (power cords, interconnects, speakers, speaker wires, speaker placement, room acoustics, cables on the floor, proper polarity of the AC power to each component and on and on and on with HUNDREDS of additional variables such that IN YOUR SYSTEM, the Wadia sounds better to you..

And that is JUST FINE!

The ONLY thing that an end customer should be after is to find a system that makes them feel "good" (almost like being high on marijuana) when you listen to it.

Seriously.

It should stimulate the production of endorphins so that the mere act of listening to music literally alters our brain chemistry and make us FEEL BETTER!

That is the ONLY function of a stereo system. So if you are getting that from your system, DON'T LISTEN TO PEOPLE LIKE ME THAT ARE TRYING TO SELL YOU SOMETHING. JUST TELL US TO "SOD OFF" AND ENJOY YOUR MUSIC!

A reviewer and ESPECIALLY a manufacturer has a COMPLETELY different job. We have to make equipment that produces the sensation of enjoyment with as MANY DIFFERENT SYSTEMS AS POSSIBLE. Not the same thing AT ALL.

Cheers,
Charlie Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc
post #1237 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword of Levi View Post

My next question was going to be when so that's cool. I should have asked, what do those updates change in those products?

Sorry Sword, I have blind spots in my eyes and can no longer drive. I can usually see well enough o read, but often make mistakes. I thought your original question was "when", not "what".

As with all of our products the upgrades will be 100% backwards-compatible. They will also be EXTREMELY expensive in this case, as the prices of all the components have been steadily rising, while we have held the retail prices alone for many, many years. Also the upgrades will be so extensive that there will be no way to add them simply by changing a few parts out or even adding a daughter PCB (as we do with "DSD" upgrades). The ONLY way to incorporate what we have learned in the last seven or eight years is to completely replace the main audio PCB

The price of the new units will probably increase by a factor of between 33% and 50%. The cost of he upgrades (at least in the US -- overseas distributors HAVE to set their own pricing to account for freight, duty, import taxes, labor, et cetera, et ceera).will likely just be the difference between the original retail price and the new retail price. Although that is always our target, we can't always hit it. For example with the DX-5 the upgrade price is slightly higher than the increase in the retail price, although in that case we will offer a special discounted price for customers who have purchased their DX-5 BRAND NEW since 01 January 2013.

We are starting with the most difficult one first, to get it out of the way -- the MX-R's. That thing has 20 pounds of bananas stuffed into a 5 pound bag, and there's not a lot of room for extras Once we do that, we will probably do the KX-R. I'm pretty sure that one will be easier to design, although the installation is much more difficult. There are three separate PCB's stacked together to make an audio "module", and we have to take it completely apart to replace the middle one. We will probably also replace the contacts on the Shallco rotary switches as there was a batch that had a failure rate that was a bit higher than I like to see But they have that ironed out now -- it's just more labor to perform when doing the update. (We also have a special precision force gauge that allows us to measure the contact pressure to see if it is within the normal range or on its way to failure.)

And as for when, all I can say is that "we will sell no update before its time". (A silly slogan from a rather mediocre wine manufacturer in California a few decades ago.)

Be patient. It will be worth it

Cheers,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics
post #1238 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post

It's been so long ago that I had nearly forgotten. There is an interesting back-story to the Wadia 381. It was supposed to be their "entry-level" player at the very lowest cost. It had a BEAUTIFUL chassis that was designed by Alex Rasmussen at Neal Feay. (He has designed over half of the current Ayre products, all of the Aesthetix product, all of Classe's "pre-Delta series" product (he builds the Delta Series but doesn't love the way they look), all of the Constellation products, and many, many, MANY more beautiful products. The Wadia design was based on the idea that in high volumes fancy extrusions can be made very cost-effectively. Well by the time they went to put that player into production, they could only afford to build something less that 1/10 of the original projections. So that product ended costing a LOT more than planned
Charlie Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc

EDIT: A sharp-eyed long time audio person in the audio scene reminded me that I got a KEY FACT in this story WRONG. SORRY!

The model that I was talking about was actually the 830 (later the 831). So many of the details of my story are irrelevant, even thought the broad outlines are correct. I don't have tome to got through them right now point by point to correct any meaningful errors, but I will try to do that later. SORRY FOR THE MIX UP!

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
post #1239 of 1423
Hi Charles,

Always difficult to keep the company "secrets", I once worked for a company making High/Low beds, one time the boss of the company visited a branche show and saw to his suprise a product he designed back on a competitor display (eastern europe) for half the price.

The 830/831 are older types of Wadia players, the 381i and S7i don't really have that familiair "Wadia" sound and to my ears they are very neutral and dynamic with a wide soundstage.
Same is true for the DX-5, don't get me wrong, I like it a lot, I was just wondering about the "the twice as good" comment with regards to the upgrade.
I did some more reading on the forums and found some more information on the upgrade, but still wondering in what area the player will improve, the DX-5 is already a neutral sounding player, more neutral would be difficult I imagine, therefore the changes must be in resolution, air, soundstage, dynamics. And this I couldn't find in your answer.

I am not implying that my system is great, but too me it is very musical, there was a time that I visited audio shows here in Holland, and when I would return home I could not listen to my own system anymore for a couple of days. But at present I don't have that same experience anymore. (must be doing something right)

Wadia 381i --> NBS Black label PC, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse XLR, Finite Element cerapucs
Ayre DX-5--> NBS Active II PC, Cardas Golden Cross XLR, Finite Element Cerapucs.

The Wadia has probably the better PC connected to it at the moment, although the NBS Active II is also quite good. The Wirworld is a pure silver cable wihich is working well with the Wadia.
The cardas golden cross I think is a proven match for Ayre equipment.

I will call the Dutch importer tomorrow, and see if he has a DSD demo available.

Thanks,

Olaf
post #1240 of 1423
Hi Charles,

I forgot to mention, both players will stay in my system (with or without the DX-5 upgrade), both have there own strengths.

Just wondering, which loudspeakers is Ayre using when testing equipment ?

Best regards,

Olaf
post #1241 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezap2 View Post

Hi Charles,
The 830/831 are older types of Wadia players, the 381i and S7i don't really have that familiair "Wadia" sound and to my ears they are very neutral and dynamic with a wide soundstage.

FWIW, I've been a long-time Wadia fan and owner and traded my 830 a few years back for an S7i.

It was actually an entertaining experience as my local dealer wouldn't get an S7i in for me to audition (they'd only do the "buy one and if you don't like it you can return it" thing and I hate to leave a dealer with whom I have a good relationship with such a high-priced piece of used gear on their shelf) so after meeting John Schaffer at RMAF a few years back he had an S7i especially shipped to them and then on to me or audition.

It took about six seconds to hear how much better the S7i sounded compared to my 830, so it actually worked out well for Wadia and my dealer - though one wonders how many others they could have sold but did not because they didn't have a demo, but I digress.

Alas, I've been in a similar quandary about a KX-R for a while now - no way to listen to one in my system.

Though given the mention of forthcoming updates above, perhaps that's a good thing and good timing. biggrin.gif
Edited by kucharsk - 8/13/13 at 3:38am
post #1242 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezap2 View Post


I will call the Dutch importer tomorrow, and see if he has a DSD demo available.

Olaf

Yes, please call Audiac. We have orders for over 100 unit and cannot build them all so quickly So the first priority is to make sure that the distributors and dealers have the current demo units on display. After that we will update the customer owned units. Audiac is on of our lagest distributors and Michael Huigens is super knowledgeable about the technology, so he should be able to answer any questions for you. I don't usually try to "break down" the sound into bass, middle, high, dynamics, slam, power, soundstaging, et cetera. Instead I just listen if it sound more like real music. So I am not the best person to ask in which areas the improvements are. As always, the best thing is he listen for yourself. I think you will have a nice surprise!

Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezap2 View Post

Hi Charles,

Just wondering, which loudspeakers is Ayre using when testing equipment ?

We've used so many different speakers over the years -- Avalon Elipse, Vandersteen IIIA, Avalon Eidolon Diamond, JBLK2-S9800, Wilson W/P 7, Wilson Sasha, Joseph Audio RM-33, TAD Labs R-1, TAD Labs CR-1, Vivid Giya G2, Vivid Giya G2, and probably a half dozen more that I am forgetting. Our listening room has troubles with bass resonance and the speakers that perform best in the bass seem to be the ones with two woofers. Then the resonance from one woofer is at a different frequency than the other woofer. The one that we use the most currently is the TAD Labs R1. The CR-1 is better in many ways, but with the bass problem in our room, th R1 is a better compromise overall. Other speakers that I have lot of respect for have been both of the Vivid Giya and also the JBL K2-9800 (be careful because the newer K2-9900 is not as good -- it does not have the beryllium midrange driver and does not sound as good as the older model with the beryllium midrange and beryllium tweeter.). I hope this helps.

Olaf
post #1243 of 1423
Hi Charles,

I have contacted Audiac this morning, I think they expect a demo in the next couple of weeks and they asked me to send an email so they can contact me when it is available.

All great speakers in your list, no Magico's there but I think they can match the performance of most of them. (with the closed system it should work well in rooms with low frequency problems)

Thanks for taking the time to discuss with me.

Best regards,

Olaf
post #1244 of 1423
Dear Charles,
let's face it: Can we expect to get the upgrade kits to Germany within this year?
It's simply that you've set the expectations high, but I have some doubts in the meantime on the availability?
Kind regards
Werner
post #1245 of 1423
Dear Werner,

Yes, I promise that it will be before the end of the year! We have a "pool" of updated PCB's that we send to the distributors. Then they need to retrieve the units from the customers that want the update. After they perform the updates (typically several at a time), then they return the original PCB's to us. Once we get them back we update those PCB's and send them out to the next distributor in line. So there is a minimum of three to four weeks just for the round-trip shipping. Then there is the time required for the distributor's technician to update the units. But often they don't have all of the units exactly when they need them. So unfortunately it can take up to two months to turn around one batch of PCB's when everything is factored in.

There are only two ways to speed up the process. One would be to ship your unit directly to the factory. But the round-trip shipping charges would probably be around $500. That would save a week or two depending on how efficiently the distributor can gather all of the units needed for repair. (It is too expensive to ship the PCB's back one set at a time -- they need to modify all of the units and then ship all of the PCB's at once.)

The other way to speed up the process would be to increase the number of updated PCB kits in the "pool. But the sales of the DX-5-DSD have been stronger than expected, and we are approaching the end of life on that model as we are running out of Oppo mechanisms. Once the upgrade program is completed, the modified boards will be of no use. We won't discard them as they can be used for spares for service (plus I hate to throw anything away!) but it doesn't make sense to build tens of thousands of dollars worth of PCBs simply to speed up the upgrade program. If we did that we could probably have everybody's unit updated within a few months, but then we would be left with tens of thousands of dollars worth of PCB's with no real use.

I will find out where the "pool" of update kits are now, and an approximate time that they should get to Germany. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
post #1246 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by wernerleitmann View Post

Dear Charles,
let's face it: Can we expect to get the upgrade kits to Germany within this year?
It's simply that you've set the expectations high, but I have some doubts in the meantime on the availability?
Kind regards
Werner

I agree! Also waiting....
post #1247 of 1423
Lieber Werner und Ingo,

I have checked on the situation and Sun Audio has four update kits on order. Two are ready to go. We are just waiting for the rest of their order so that we can consolidate the freight. I would imagine that you two are on the top of their list, but you will need to confirm that with Philipp to be certain. Hopefully you will be enjoying your updated units soon. Thanks again for your patience and understanding.

Warm regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
post #1248 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post

Lieber Werner und Ingo,

I have checked on the situation and Sun Audio has four update kits on order. Two are ready to go. We are just waiting for the rest of their order so that we can consolidate the freight. I would imagine that you two are on the top of their list, but you will need to confirm that with Philipp to be certain. Hopefully you will be enjoying your updated units soon. Thanks again for your patience and understanding.

Warm regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.

Thanks for the update on the update, Charles. By the way, mathematically it is an interesting update strategy. You can update all the units by building only entirely new one PCB....wink.gif

Best

Ingo
Edited by IngoT - 9/10/13 at 11:14am
post #1249 of 1423
Dear Ingo,

Yes, one would be sufficient, but I think we would be tortured to death by our customers. By the time we updated all of the units, Blu-ray will no longer be made...eek.gif


Best,
Charles
Ayre
post #1250 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post

Dear Ingo,

Yes, one would be sufficient, but I think we would be tortured to death by our customers. By the time we updated all of the units, Blu-ray will no longer be made...eek.gif


Best,
Charles
Ayre


That might happen sooner than we think. The BDA currently is considering a strategy and specs for a 4k Blu Ray (no street date yet), production facilities for 100GB Blu Ray discs have just been introduced, the current IFA in Berlin is filled up with UltraHD TV sets, and Sony comes up with a very nice and now more affordable 4K beamer. 4K is a drug for the videophile, once you've seen it (I have smile.gif). Nobody can stop evolution, I believe...

Best

Ingo
post #1251 of 1423
Hello Ingo,

Yes, 3D was introduced only 2 months after we brought out the DX-5. Our sources were misleading us there. When it happened I knew we would lose sales, but I also knew that 3D would flop -- and it has. But everybody I've spoken to who has seen 4K is very impressed by it --much, much more so than by 3D. In fact they say that it is such high resolution that it looks more 3D than 3D does!. As always it is only a matter of time until the cost comes down. But it will never become mainstream. Instead the market will fragment. Already that has happened to a fairly large degree just with Blu-ray. The average person won't pay more for Blu-ray than DVD. In fact they are perfectly happy to watch highly compressed streaming video downloads.

It's basically the same thing that happened in audio a decade ago. The normal person is perfectly happy to pay normal prices for not-so-good sounding compressed music with no liner notes from the iTunes Store. It's rare to find someone who will pay for disc, even though it is often cheaper than the download and can be turned into an MP3 in a matter of a few minutes. So as time goes on, most people will just watch streaming video (= iTunes Downloads), some people will purchase or rent a DVD (= CD), and a very small percentage of the market will spend the money for a limited selection of 4K titles (= 192/24 downloads). We will continue to build equipment that provides the best possible performance from the existing technologies.

Cheers,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
post #1252 of 1423
I don't know how many of you are planning to get the upgrade, but I have to say "Charles Hansen is wrong!!!" From all of his explanations on these forums about the upgrade he constantly mislead people. You might ask how he did this. Simply stated, "He undersold it by a ridiculous margin". If he would have told everyone how awesome it was then he would be sold out. Instead he said it is the best upgrade for 1200 or even more expensive cables. He is crazy. It is the best upgrade period. It really is not an upgrade. It is an entirely new product. 11,000 for this player is a steal and it pains me to read absolute sound because they just gloss over such a superb product. Mine is not even broken in yet but the difference blows my mind. Everything just comes alive in a very distinct way. Everything is so crisp, clean and separate but still a smooth integral part of the picture. Now that I have my upgrade, I can say.....you should charge more for it. A lot more. Guys it is that good. Don't believe Charles' humility. He knows he made something awesome again.

(By the way, I was joking about the price increase). If you are on the fence then jump off it and run to your dealer if you have a good one and get this upgrade. If you don't then slap yourself for being stupid smile.gif
post #1253 of 1423
Hello Sword,

I thought I was being pretty straight forward! I said that I was shocked at the difference and that I didn't think it could even get much better but in the end it was literally twice as good as before. So I think we're at least in the same ballpark. smile.gif

I'm glad you are enjoying your unit. Thanks for the kind words.

Cheers,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
post #1254 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

I wonder what Ayre does to a $500 unit to make an "Ayre"?

That's easy. They load on the cosmetics and profit margin.
post #1255 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

That's easy. They load on the cosmetics and profit margin.


It took you 4 years to figure that out?
post #1256 of 1423
Guys this thread is for owners of the dx5 or at least people interested in knowing about the product. This forum is for them to learn about the technical details because they have a passion for the music or they are looking to purchase one but bashers are against AVS rules. If you really just wanted to know what the difference is, then get busy reading. All of it has been posted and you have the privelage of having the designer answer those questions for you.

Charles,
When you said it is twice as good I would have to say it is still undersold. I can't wait to hear it after 150-300 hours. To be honest, I have bought a ton of gear over the years and Ayre just continues to live up to the hype. I have never bought a piece of any other company in electronics where I felt it was a great bargain. Usually the hype just wasn't there. Even this upgrade, I expected it to be better but I didn't expect to be impressed. I am hardly ever impressed because most marketing hypes a product beyond its ability or right there but nothing I read on this forums gave the impression of the level of change in this upgrade but it sounds like a completely changed player. Beyond an upgrade. I can't wait for the mxr and kxr upgrade. I can only hope it is this drastic of an improvement. I will stop gushing but rarely are things better than promised.
post #1257 of 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottsol View Post

It took you 4 years to figure that out?

The original query by mmiles that started this little contretemps is indeed four years old. It is, in fact, post #9 of this thread and was answered in post #10.

I originally thought that FMW was being facetious in digging up this old post, but after looking at his other posts it seems he may be a Hydrogen Audio type, which means the best course of action would be to not engage him.
Edited by scottsol - 9/12/13 at 10:33pm
post #1258 of 1423
Charles,

I was wondering about a fuse question regarding the dx5, mxr, and kxr. I was talking with Cindy Kerr and she mentioned to me that with my system that she believed I would be really pleased with new fuses in my equipment. I looked in the manuals and didn't find the exact fuse specifications for all the products and I was wondering if you could tell me all the fuses in each product so that I could order them and then install instead of having to open them twice? Thank you.

Sword
post #1259 of 1423
Sword,

No need to open your Ayre gear to replace a fuse. All Ayre gear I have have a fuseholder incorporated into IEC inlet. BTW, what are you going to install instead of a stock fuse?

Best
post #1260 of 1423
Dear NE Prince,

That is true for all of the Ayre equipment except for the power amplifiers. They also have internal rail fuses to protect both the speakers and the amplifiers. I suspect that Sword wants to try some of the solid-silver fuses that are supposed to improve the sound. I will try and get a table of all of the values used in the various products and publish it here.

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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